Ever wonder "how do we know this?" (in terms of science, history, etc.)

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Here's an example I discovered recently. If you've ever heard of an historic empire called "Srivijaya" that existed in ancient Indonesia, it probably was the creation of the feverish mind of European explorers a century ago who then entered it into the historic canon. This is exactly what OP means but unlike a lot of examples in this thread, it's got good methodology behind it and explains why people would go along with an argument with such little evidence.

What gets me is the whole "6 million holy number" thing and the fact the number came up in newspaper articles about Russia before WWII.
iirc the Red Cross immediately after WWII put the number much lower as well.

This is a very bad argument since "6 million" happens to be the number of Jews who lived in the Russian Empire in the 1910s.

 

[The Tall Man]

That's how I feel about things that, for example, let you see electrons or accelerate particles. How do we know these devices are actually detecting a real thing and not just putting a light show on a screen, or making a sound when you press a button?

The experimental evidence supporting the existence of fundamental particles isn't particularly robust. For instance, one might anticipate that a photoelectric element would require a minimum energy level before producing a detectable signal. It's more plausible that what you label as an 'electron' is simply the energy threshold of your photoelectric element rather than a distinct, discrete particle.

A great series along the lines of what you are looking for. It highlights that much of theoretical physics is entirely detached from reality, consequently finding limited practical application.

He doesn't state it explicitly, so I will: photons and electrons aren't real; they are merely theoretical concepts that physicists propagate to sustain their pet theories.

 

[Tetragrammaton]

we only know things about history based on what remains of those things and everything else just has a point in which we can only make theories about things. personally i like to assume we are just guessing about everything unless it can be proven without a doubt.

i do often wonder how much we have wrong though especially about history. it would be hilarious to me if we were wrong about a whole civilization like ancient egyptians were actually idiots and stole everything from a smarter neighboring group which they then destroyed after they were done forcing them to build the pyramids

 

[skykiii]

It all has to do with perspective. Everyone’s experience is subjective within a certain margin. If a dictator increases the salaries of the working class 50%, the teachers at schools will tell you "the best president ever", but if the same dictator raises the taxes of the wealthy class by 50% and enacts laws that prevent outsourcing and other fraudulent practices, the CEOs of big companies will tell the media "that dictator is crazy, a madman, a violator of human rights and liberty!"... perspective

I once read that precisely this is the case with a lot of supposedly evil historical figures, most notably Prince John. Apparently, he actually did try to tax the rich, and for actually good reasons (better roads and shit), and they responded by smearing him as evil greedy tax person (and thus he becomes the villain of the Robin Hood legends).

i do often wonder how much we have wrong though especially about history. it would be hilarious to me if we were wrong about a whole civilization like ancient egyptians were actually idiots and stole everything from a smarter neighboring group which they then destroyed after they were done forcing them to build the pyramids

This kind of stuff makes me think of Monty Python's the Meaning of Life, and specifically the Moses segment.

"Fifteen commandments!" (Moses accidentally drops one slab and it breaks) "Umm... I mean... TEN Commandments!"

A friend of mine always wondered about that. Like what if that really happened and there's been five commandments we've all been breaking this entire time and never knew it because Moses as a clumsy idiot and doomed us all?

 

[Fek]

___ aren't real; they are merely theoretical concepts that [any gatekept concept's grift squad] propagate to sustain their pet theories.

Your take on this caught my attention for how close it was to being a basic template for how this stuff tends to work. Slightly altered, but you were really right on the money.

 

[gorororo]

Humans aren't omniscient, so we can't know what's "true", so the closest we can get is through models. Ideally, those models get closer to the truth over time. (Exceptions being that the models we use change depending on our needs, like how accurate we want something to be or the audience information is meant for.)

With scientific models, you go in knowing that those models only work with a given set of assumptions. For example, the geocentric & heliocentric models both work for predicting planetary motion on Earth. The geocentric model breaks when you're no longer observing from Earth or if the orbit was a more exaggerated oval shape. When physics teachers teach the basic kinematic equations, the assumptions are no friction or air resistance. If you tried to apply those equations to a real world problem, you might get close, but it won't be the same result.

Lying with statistics is a well known idea, but I think over fitting isn't as well known. Any set of data can be forced to fit an equation/model with enough fine tuning. If someone's predictions ever seem to good, it's important to question it.

 

[draggs]

It's called trust and verify as much you want to/can

It wouldn't be possible at all to have history and the other sciences if there weren't a baseline level of trust in what someone else wrote, and some ability to verify what they wrote

 

[Fek]

This slap fight is kind of silly on its face, but it's a great case study on the topic of the thread at large. Funny how that worked out. Anyway, to the point:

It is very natural to seek guidance and frameworks in which to base one's beliefs when you're young and new to this whole human existence business. As with anything else in life, however: you must eventually reach a point where you learn to handle it yourself.

Your parents helped you learn how to walk. Eventually, they wanted you (and you sought) to be able to do it all by yourself. They did not guilt trip you because you dared to try on your own sometimes. They did not shame you for bumping into the furniture once you started taking your first independent shaky steps. They certainly wouldn't have murdered you for picking up on it so fast you were clumsily running within days.

So all that being said: Why on Earth do you think a love so great as to allow you the freedom to >BE< (in whatever way you wish) would want you browbeating others for not subscribing to your (quite distorted, I might add) iteration of the instruction manual? Why on Earth do you think that unfathomable boundless loving force would then penalize you for using an older, newer, or differently translated method of finding out the very same Truth hiding in plain sight?

To put it in a more focused fashion given the text in question: Why does one call him "Lord," yet not do the things he says?

Hey, if anyone besides this guy is still reading this topic and has not been scared away by this autistic Bible argument, is it even worth bothering with Otoya at his point?

There is always a reason for events that happen in one's life. Always an opportunity for growth or to help someone else grow. I believe you both may have been granted that opportunity.

 

[skykiii]

No. I don't typically say this of people but you're looking a true-blue brainwashed puritan. Possibly a born again. Disregard his schizophrenia.

Good advice. When a person's arguments basically amount to "its true because I say it is" and a lot of circular reasoning, its time to cut losses.

Hey remember when this topic was about science and history? Those were good times.

 

[N Space]

I think much of the same with science and the ideas of microscopic molecular entities.

He doesn't state it explicitly, so I will: photons and electrons aren't real; they are merely theoretical concepts that physicists propagate to sustain their pet theories.

I truly find it ironic that people say this with devices made with these "microcopic molecular entities" and with deep understanding of both electrons and light. Seriously though, how the hell do you think your computer or cellphone works?

 

[LatinasAreTheFuture]

In general, information is interpreted. Information can be defined as an abstract particle composed of data plus context being transmitted from a transmitter to a receiver along a one dimensional string. It’s always like this.

 

[The Tall Man]

I truly find it ironic that people say this with devices made with these "microcopic molecular entities" and with deep understanding of both electrons and light. Seriously though, how the hell do you think your computer or cellphone works?

I appreciate your confident disregard for an individual with a background in high-end optics and an extensive history of research and development in advanced electronics.

Allow me to share a secret: in intricate electronics, electricity is approached as a wave, while in precision optics, light too is treated as a wave.
The double-slit experiment illustrates that both light and electricity exhibit wave-like behavior (yes, you can conduct a double-slit experiment with electricity). However, it does not demonstrate that light behaves as a particle.

In your everyday life, there exist no instances of electronics or optics that rely on the application of particle theory for their operation. Particle theory is confined to the realm of theoretical constructs and is exclusively employed for academic purposes in theoretical contexts.

Kindly direct me to the component in my computer that necessitates the application of subatomic particle theory for its functionality.
And if you want to earn extra points, show me a good experiment that proves a photon particle or an electron particle, beyond a quantized form of energy transfer in matter.

 

[Starved Artist]

Always wondered how did we come up the steps to process Wheat, Rice and other plants.It's surreal imo. I feel like agriculture ,horticulture and electronics would be the thing aliens assisted us with, not architecture.

Wheat straight from the ground, is awful before the later processing steps occur. But for some reason, people stopped eating it raw, suddenly started processing it in various ways- cooking it and making gruel and porridge out of it. Then some brilliant fuckwit came up with the idea to crush it in varying degrees and separate it; then another genius said " HEY ADD YEAST" and boom, bread and beer for the middle ages, with the side effect of keeping people away from unclean water.

 

[skykiii]

There are no nice people on earth ever

So you don't even consider yourself "nice?"

Always wondered how did we come up the steps to process Wheat, Rice and other plants.It's surreal imo. I feel like agriculture ,horticulture and electronics would be the thing aliens assisted us with, not architecture.

Though that really just adds steps to the question--instead of "how did humans figure it out?" now its "how did the aliens figure it out?"

Honestly while I don't believe "Ancient Aliens" type theories per se, I feel like this kind of thing evidences that on some level paranormal or supernatural forces must exist.

I mean yeah, there are people who just decide at random to experiment with things and I guess its possible ancient societies just had some people who experimented and found these things, or it could all be a happy accident like the guy who found penicillin by testing out the mold in his trash can... but even that can seem suspect when it happens enough times.

 

[Starved Artist]

So you don't even consider yourself "nice?"


Though that really just adds steps to the question--instead of "how did humans figure it out?" now its "how did the aliens figure it out?"

Honestly while I don't believe "Ancient Aliens" type theories per se, I feel like this kind of thing evidences that on some level paranormal or supernatural forces must exist.

I mean yeah, there are people who just decide at random to experiment with things and I guess its possible ancient societies just had some people who experimented and found these things, or it could all be a happy accident like the guy who found penicillin by testing out the mold in his trash can... but even that can seem suspect when it happens enough times.

I totally agree with you, accidents happen, but there's just too many for it to not feel intentional.

Here's how it played out in my head when I was a kid.

Ancient Humans are out here doing their thing. An alien space ship passes by. Lands on Earth. Sees some humans struggling to survive in a near tundra situation. Rather than let them die, they pop over, scan the local plants and figure out which ones are edible, they notice the locals aren't using wheat at it's peak efficiency, then unga bunga the steps of chaff seperation in front of the leaders. They then "vanish" in the middle of the night after a few months of training to spread the word of additional things you can do with wheat besides chew on it.

Of course, there's historical tracing. Wheat's spread is clearly not natural. It went from one tiny region of the world to spreading throughout the globe as if it's some super parasite. This is chart was posted during the Pasta Wars of my shitty facebook group. Not long ago, they discovered some prehistoric noodles made out of millet, possibly disrupting Italy's claim of inventing noodles. It's off topic, but at the same time on topic.

Accidents happen. This all could just be a simple coincidence. Everyone is looking for intelligent design in humans, I'm the psychopath who sees intelligent design in all the happy accidents that kept our species from being wiped out.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

People always talk about "the second coming of Christ" but IMO he's actually reincarnated several times throughout history. Amakusa is one of the more obvious (and documented) parallels... and also shows us just how a coming of Christ might fly under the radar: he appeared in a country where Christianity was basically unknown (and was treated as an enemy), and where the rest of the world didn't learn about it until centuries later... and then mostly through weeb media, and there isn't much overlap between weebs and christianity, so....

Yes, the guy who learned about Christianity from the Portuguese and then launched a failed rebellion that accomplished nothing beside getting tens of thousands of Christians killed and the religion permabanned for over 200 years was Jesus. Ninja Resurrection was not a documentary. Jesus didn't come back with a sword just to get his ass kicked and his church destroyed.

Always wondered how did we come up the steps to process Wheat, Rice and other plants.It's surreal imo. I feel like agriculture ,horticulture and electronics would be the thing aliens assisted us with, not architecture.

Wheat straight from the ground, is awful before the later processing steps occur. But for some reason, people stopped eating it raw, suddenly started processing it in various ways- cooking it and making gruel and porridge out of it. Then some brilliant fuckwit came up with the idea to crush it in varying degrees and separate it; then another genius said " HEY ADD YEAST" and boom, bread and beer for the middle ages, with the side effect of keeping people away from unclean water.

Literal animals know how to do that, that's why monkeys use all sorts of shit to get at fruits and nuts.

 

[Safir]

Kindly direct me to the component in my computer that necessitates the application of subatomic particle theory for its functionality.

Do you have a cd / dvd / bluray drive?

---
First reply, tranny bullshit. Fourth reply, historical Christ. My condolences to the OP.

 

[Fek]

Always wondered how did we come up the steps to process Wheat, Rice and other plants.It's surreal imo.

Yes, there are many instances of such things and all make great examples of "how do we know this?"

Graham Hancock illustrates this in another way quite well when referencing South American Amazon tribes and Ayahuasca. I'm sure there's a better example, but you can find him referencing it briefly in the first two minutes of this video. Basically, from the thousands of different types of plants throughout the Amazon rainforest? Humanity managed to find not only the two that were required for brewing Ayahuasca, but also the exact amounts of each and the time required for said brewing. Uh-huh. Suuure.

Incidentally, if one were to ask the Amazonian tribes how they came to know this information? They'd tell you they learned it from a spirit/god who taught them how to do it a long, long time ago.

Also, for what it's worth: Graham Hancock's work is a fine exercise in the greater topic of the thread. While it's certainly not my cup of tea (dramatic presentations and modern 'made for consoomer' media): his Netflix series is surprisingly on point when compared against his research presented elsewhere. I'm shocked it wasn't overly tainted for the sake of captivating an audience or some shit.

 

[Bonesjones]

Always wondered how did we come up the steps to process Wheat, Rice and other plants.It's surreal imo. I feel like agriculture ,horticulture and electronics would be the thing aliens assisted us with, not architecture.

Wheat straight from the ground, is awful before the later processing steps occur. But for some reason, people stopped eating it raw, suddenly started processing it in various ways- cooking it and making gruel and porridge out of it. Then some brilliant fuckwit came up with the idea to crush it in varying degrees and separate it; then another genius said " HEY ADD YEAST" and boom, bread and beer for the middle ages, with the side effect of keeping people away from unclean water.

You have to remember that for most of history, being entirely without food was a common occurrence. There literally was nothing to eat, no store, no ability to trade, nothing. You either figured out something to eat or you starved to death. So if you haven't eaten in a few days and you see an animal eat something, so you try to eat what the animal ate. It either killed you or it didn't but now you know there's 1 more thing you can eat.

Processes like bread were also developed piecemeal over time. Eating bits of grain, learning that the shell was tough and not very good, so you smash the kernels between rocks. Remnants get turned into a powder, it gets wet with rain, turns into something else, etc.

Look at how Worcheshire sauce was invented. That's in very recent history and also gross as fuck, but still was a weird culinary discovery.

 

[Fallen Preacher]

OK, I better reply to this before the bullshit religious flamewar gets out of control and the ORIGINAL purpose of the thread is lost forever - as it's a very interesting question and I think I know something that I want to pass on to others trying to find similar answers:

The map is NOT the territory - math, physics etc are abstractions of reality .

Now how did they THINK of said inventions / make those abstraction discoveries, I recommend something 40+ years old:

James Burke has been in several tv shows and written several books (most well known is Connections which covers how A leads to B leads to C leads to eventually Z (like the famous Fallout New Vegas "What do they eat?" video).
Connections explores an "Alternative View of Change" (the subtitle of the series) that rejects the conventional linear and teleological view of historical progress. Burke contends that one cannot consider the development of any particular piece of the modern world in isolation. Rather, the entire gestalt of the modern world is the result of a web of interconnected events, each one consisting of a person or group acting for reasons of their own motivations (e.g., profit, curiosity, religion) with no concept of the final, modern result to which the actions of either them or their contemporaries would lead. The interplay of the results of these isolated events is what drives history and innovation, and is also the main focus of the series and its sequels.