David Steel / LazerPig / Ricewynd / Malquistion - Pathological Liar, Reddit Historian, Femboy Thirster, and Vore Connoisseur

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JustStopDude said:
The modern US destroyer has a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Baltimore class from WWII was 14,000 tons. The even larger Alaska class was 29,771 tons.

Which modern US destroyers are you referencing?
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The Zumwalts, of course.

You know, the ones deliberately misclassified as destroyers because they would never get through congress otherwise.
 
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JustStopDude said:
The modern US destroyer has a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Baltimore class from WWII was 14,000 tons. The even larger Alaska class was 29,771 tons.

Which modern US destroyers are you referencing?
Click to expand...
To be fair... if we're talking power, a 1000 pound warhead in a tomahawk missile has more power than a Baltimore's 8 inch gun, which has a 300 pound shell. You're right on weight, power... eh, missiles kinda leveled the playing field
 
JustStopDude said:
The modern US destroyer has a displacement of about 8,000 tons. The Baltimore class from WWII was 14,000 tons. The even larger Alaska class was 29,771 tons.

Which modern US destroyers are you referencing?
Click to expand...
Burke destroyers displace more than Atlanta-class WWII light cruisers. Admittedly, the Cleveland-class beats out even Flight III Burkes by 2,000 tons.
 
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1Tonka_Truck said:
Burke destroyers displace more than Atlanta-class WWII light cruisers. Admittedly, the Cleveland-class beats out even Flight III Burkes by 2,000 tons.
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Again, I think it's more apt to talk about modern warships in terms of power. Modern warships don't really have much armor than splinter protection, because missiles hit like a 16 inch shell. Their armor comes in air defense and long range strike capabilities. This is a flight III Burke
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96 VLS cells which can pack 1000 mile Block V tomahawk missiles to hit land or sea targets, numerous anti air and anti ballistic missiles, torpedoes, two helicopters, long range ASEA radars, CWIS, the list goes on. Really a cruiser in MODERN parlance is more about having command facilities to lead a fleet, and if you look at classifications, going past 100 VLS cells.

Weight I'd argue is less accurate, because armor is far less of a factor, so you can have the same power as a old cruiser, but you'll never hit the weight limit because there's less steel as a whole
 
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Corn Flakes said:
The Zumwalts, of course.

You know, the ones deliberately misclassified as destroyers because they would never get through congress otherwise.
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You mean the canceled class of ships? They built three and its been a disaster. I wouldn't classify them as a typical destroyer and they are so few in number that got all intents and purposes, they don't meaningfully add up to anything.
 
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WelperHelper99 said:
I need context, what's happening in the photo?
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Meeting with Dylan Burns again. Pig and Ani have alluded to a project involving interviews with Ukies, probably related to that. Imagine fighting for your country in an absolute meat grinder for over a year, getting told someone wants to tell your story to the west, and it's fucking Scottish Jim Sterling complete with nail polish.
 
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AeroGavin Rossdale said:
Meeting with Dylan Burns again. Pig and Ani have alluded to a project involving interviews with Ukies, probably related to that. Imagine fighting for your country in an absolute meat grinder for over a year, getting told someone wants to tell your story to the west, and it's fucking Scottish Jim Sterling complete with nail polish.
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What has Dylan done, is he a reporter or something?
 
JustStopDude said:
You mean the canceled class of ships? They built three and its been a disaster. I wouldn't classify them as a typical destroyer and they are so few in number that got all intents and purposes, they don't meaningfully add up to anything.
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We were talking about ships being misclassified for the sake of financial or diplomatic skullduggery. Canceled after one ship or not, the Zumwalt class count.
 
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Corn Flakes said:
We were talking about ships being misclassified for the sake of financial or diplomatic skullduggery. Canceled after one ship or not, the Zumwalt class count.
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Okay. I just responded to a comment that implied that US destroyers on average are "heavier", meaning they displace more water, than WWII Heavy Cruisers.

Picking a canceled modern series that consists of just three ships seems a bit disingenuous. There are currently 72 US destroyers. So those three represent less than five percent of the total. And they are being fast track for retirement.

This is the kind of shit that lazer pig does.
 
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JustStopDude said:
Okay. I just responded to a comment that implied that US destroyers on average are "heavier", meaning they displace more water, than WWII Heavy Cruisers.

Picking a canceled modern series that consists of just three ships seems a bit disingenuous. There are currently 72 US destroyers. So those three represent less than five percent of the total. And they are being fast track for retirement.

This is the kind of shit that lazer pig does.
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I used that example because I fully believe that's what we're going with in the future. And there's good evidence for that. Look at the Next-Generation Guided-Missile Destroyer, which is supposed to replace both the Arleigh Burke, the Zumwalt, and the Ticonderoga classes:

A November 2022 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report on the Navy’s FY2023 30-year shipbuilding plan states that “the Navy has indicated that the initial [DDG(X)] design prescribes a displacement of 13,500 tons,” which would be about 39% greater than the 9,700-ton Flight III DDG-51 design.
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That's a "guided missile destroyer" that masses more than our current missile cruisers. Same reason: it's easier to sell Senate on something called a "destroyer" than a "cruiser", since Navy doctrine requires a lot of "destroyers".

(As for the Zumwalts... they didn't get canceled because someone suddenly went "omg those are not destroyers!". They got canceled because they sucked. They still set the trend.)
 
Corn Flakes said:
I used that example because I fully believe that's what we're going with in the future. And there's good evidence for that. Look at the Next-Generation Guided-Missile Destroyer, which is supposed to replace both the Arleigh Burke, the Zumwalt, and the Ticonderoga classes:



That's a "guided missile destroyer" that masses more than our current missile cruisers. Same reason: it's easier to sell Senate on something called a "destroyer" than a "cruiser", since Navy doctrine requires a lot of "destroyers".

(As for the Zumwalts... they didn't get canceled because someone suddenly went "omg those are not destroyers!". They got canceled because they sucked. They still set the trend.)
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I would argue that the natural progression of ships displacing larger amounts of water as technology improves is a bit different than say the Soviet and now the Russian navy claiming that their fixed wing carrier is an "aircraft cruiser" to get around treaty restrictions.

Ships of all classes have increased in size and this is true for all navies. I also don't understand why the US congress, which has never met a pork project it didn't love, would balk at military spending bill if the ships were labeled cruiser as opposed to destroyer.

I also have to point out, going back to the original comment I responded to, the DDG(X) will still not displace more water tonnage than a US WWII Heavy Cruiser.
 
JustStopDude said:
You mean the canceled class of ships? They built three and its been a disaster. I wouldn't classify them as a typical destroyer and they are so few in number that got all intents and purposes, they don't meaningfully add up to anything.
Click to expand...

The program have been a disaster however the ships themselves are not. As Congress canceled the Zumwalts, they fucked the U.S. taxpayers over hard as builder was tooled up to build Zumwalts. In which when they were order to build Burkes, the builder had to completely retool to build those. Thus the new Burkes will be more expensive than Zumwalts. It would've been exponentially less expensive to continue to build Zumwalts albeit modified to use same software, Aegis instead of the new "clean-sheet" replacements. Plus the Burkes still need immediate future replacement.
 
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Uranus Pink said:
The program have been a disaster however the ships themselves are not. As Congress canceled the Zumwalts, they fucked the U.S. taxpayers over hard as builder was tooled up to build Zumwalts. In which when they were order to build Burkes, the builder had to completely retool to build those. Thus the new Burkes will be more expensive than Zumwalts. It would've been exponentially less expensive to continue to build Zumwalts albeit modified to use same software, Aegis instead of the new "clean-sheet" replacements. Plus the Burkes still need immediate future replacement.
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The biggest problem, at least from my perspective ans experience, is how damn small the crew is. Relatively minor propulsion plant casualties will cripple the ship because the ship doesn't have the personnel to do basic corrective maintaine out to sea. You can't fix anything on watch as the teams are too small, and since the engineering department is so tiny, those folks are already on port/starboard watch rotation.

Literally a stuck lube oil strainer basket have caused one of these things to limp back to port. It's a joke.

The entire reason the Cole didn't sink is because the crew was large enough, and well trained, to actually weld the ship back together in the water.

I will never understand how this class of boat was ever approved for construction as it fundamentally goes against basic concepts in damage control and manning.
 
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JustStopDude said:
The biggest problem, at least from my perspective ans experience, is how damn small the crew is. Relatively minor propulsion plant casualties will cripple the ship because the ship doesn't have the personnel to do basic corrective maintaine out to sea. You can't fix anything on watch as the teams are too small, and since the engineering department is so tiny, those folks are already on port/starboard watch rotation.
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I don't recall the Zumwalts having that problem as the class is certainly big enough to correct it without issue and was built to MIL-SPEC
Unlike the LCS program which did had that problem before adding the additional personnal.

I do hope the Zumwalt and the DDG(X) Next-Generation Destroyer would be a repeat of the Seawolf and Virginia class submarines or the B-2 and B-21 bombers.
 
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