Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Glowing In The Streets]

The Ukranian people didn't want this war. Zelensky probably didn't either. True - not wanting a war that hasn't happened yet is not the same thing as pacifism after you have been attacked

If they didn't want a war, they shouldn't have hit the independent territories under Russia protection, that's casus belli 101

 

[White_N]

Statement by President Biden in Remembrance of Holodomor​

We mark the solemn anniversary of the Holodomor as the brave people of Ukraine continue to defend their freedom and Ukraine’s sovereignty against Russia’s brutal war of aggression. Ninety years ago, the inhumane polices of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet regime created the “death by hunger.” Millions of Ukrainians—men, women, and children—suffered and starved to death between 1932-1933 because of a manmade famine. Stalin and his regime systematically seized Ukraine’s grain and farms and transferred Ukrainian grain to other parts of the USSR as a tactic to repress Ukraine’s national identity.

Today, Ukraine’s agricultural infrastructure is once more being deliberately targeted—this time by Vladimir Putin as part of his drive for conquest and power. Russian forces seek to destroy Ukraine’s economy and independence, deliberately damaging fields and destroying Ukraine’s grain storage facilities and ports. It is not just an attack on Ukraine’s economic security, it is a cynical assault on food security everywhere. Putin is hurting the world’s most vulnerable communities, for Russia’s profit.

On this anniversary, we remember and honor all those, both past and present, who have endured such hardship and who continue still to fight against tyranny. We also recommit ourselves to preventing suffering, protecting fundamental freedoms, and responding to human rights abuses whenever and wherever they occur. We stand united with Ukraine.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-president-biden-in-remembrance-of-holodomor/

It is not just an attack on Ukraine’s economic security, it is a cynical assault on food security everywhere. Putin is hurting the world’s most vulnerable communities, for Russia’s profit.

I find it immensely ironic that Ukrainian grain is mostly used to feed Spanish pigs, nothing is spared for the lesser brethren.
https://exxpress.at/ukraine-weizen-schweinefutter-statt-essen-fuer-die-aermsten-der-welt/

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

Statement by President Biden in Remembrance of Holodomor

Putin should reciprocate by commemorating the Trail of Tears and My Lai massacre.

 

[crustystipend]

• Ukraine was estimated to be firing around 6,000 155mm rounds a day (2.19 million shells/year), according to Western intelligence figures, whereas Russia was firing 20,000 a day (7.3 million shells/year) – the same amount produced by European manufacturers each month. (meaning Euro production = 240k shells/year)
• "US plans to increase production to 100k shells / month (1.2 million shells/year) by 2025.
• "both sides have sufficient supplies to maintain the fight, albeit rarely to move the front line under current conditions,” said CEO of strategic intelligence firm.
• "without shells, Ukraine will not be able to hold back Russian advances, nor attempt to advance in the future."

No wonder Putin looks so confident. No matter how much money they print, it's physically impossible for the West to match Russia's artillery in the near term.

Link

 

[Susanna]

Putin should reciprocate by commemorating the Trail of Tears and My Lai massacre.

It's well past time for a fresh barrage of а у вас негров линчуют.

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

It's well past time for a fresh barrage of а у вас негров линчуют.

 

[Overly Serious]

This is literally why I want Ukraine to get aid, so they lose more territory. Putin is too ready to make peace. There's a golden opportunity to be able to not only get Odessa and landlock Ukraine, but to free Hungary and through Hungary, Serbia.

It's conceivable you are correct. But the price is paid in death and bereavement every day that this continues.

It's not territorial control that makes peace unviable. It's the allegiance of the Ukranian govt. to Western govts. and interests over their own people's.

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

If they didn't want a war, they shouldn't have hit the independent territories under Russia protection, that's casus belli 101

Who's "they"?

I'm talking bout average Ukranians. They voted for peace and an end to fighting in the east in 2019. That's what Zelensky was running on, he turned into Cocaine GI Joe after Russia invaded in 2022. Ukranians are no more in control of what their government does than we are.

Like us, they get to cast a vote every few years for crooks and liars who work for the oligarchs. The ordinary Ukranian people are the biggest losers in this war, and they never wanted it to begin with.

 

[No Scope]

No. The only thing that will bring Z Man to the table is his paymasters in the West going "hey, time to pack it up, thanks for playing GeoPolitics with us"

Spoiler

I agree, Z man takes his marching orders from the West, which is the US who funds the majority of NATO. That's the easy and short answer.

What I'm looking for is more on the speculation side with a high probability of a scenario happening with pros and cons it were to occur. A few things that I can think of off the top of my head which favors the Russian side.

Pros:
- Ukraine economy as well as other nations losing money in their investments daily. Ukrainian citizens can't go to work.
- Rampant looting and chaos among major cities. Z man will need to divert military personnel from the front lines to police and restore order.
- NATO countries will actually supply the necessary equipment to rebuild/repair Ukraine's infrastructure instead of providing monetary aid.

Cons:
- Z man will beg for more money from NATO countries under the guise that it is a now a humanitarian crisis. (I think this is the mostly likely scenario that will play out.)

EDITED: Missing words for clarification in bold.

However, combat distances are really far in Ukraine, acquiring and hitting targets is hard, and guns are really loud, so being able to more easily acquire targets, hit what he's shooting at, and reduce the noise of his rifle is an all-around benefit to a modern infantryman

Spoiler

I think the use of a suppressor in that particular video negates it's intended purpose. Again, hohols acting like hohols. I think the entire unit should be outfitted with the same gear if the intended purpose is take advantage its use. In the video, the unit is in a trench fighting in a static position where it looks like most are using non-suppressed rifles.

I did find some articles just off the first page of my search and was surprised about how the US military actually wants to put them in the field for use with the Marines. Which makes a lot more sense to me after reading it cause the Marines are similar to Wagner forces as they're stormtroopers. My speculation is why that one Ukrainian soldier has that suppressed rifle is most likely due him having it been reissued from the previous user that was KIA that was in a special unit. Instead of giving out standard equipment, the Ukrainian Army is handing out whatever is readily available to those they're sending out to the front line.

SOURCES:
June 26, 2017 - https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-suppressors-will-change-battlefield-tactics/
June 29, 2019 - https://www.wearethemighty.com/migh...s-is-a-great-idea-and-3-reasons-why-it-sucks/
January 21, 2021 - https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a35099495/marines-issuing-suppressors-to-troops/
(Found it funny that the last 2 sites are using the same picture.)

This is literally why I want Ukraine to get aid, so they lose more territory. Putin is too ready to make peace. There's a golden opportunity to be able to not only get Odessa and landlock Ukraine, but to free Hungary and through Hungary, Serbia. As a side note, can you imagine the party in Transnistria / Pridnestrovia if/when the Russians get Odessa oblast?

Spoiler

I'm glad that you brought up Odessa because I was gonna to make a separate post about it. In regards to my previous post, the Russians targeting Ukraine's infrastructure, I think they should also attack the Ukrainian ships in the port more. However, it would require the use of precision weapons and the target would need to be of strategic value. Sinking a tug boat is something I expect the hohols to do. Russia would want to keep the collateral damage as low as possible so as to not piss off the other nations that are using that seaport too. When the war concludes, the best way to replenishing the war chest and begin reconstruction is to capture key resources intact.

I read in some earlier posts that someone suggested that you still need Ukraine as a buffer between Russia and Poland. This seems to be a good idea. Why increase the chances of skirmishes happening along the border after your nation just went through a war. I'm going to disagree with the Ukraine getting more aid so they can lose more territory for my bias reasons that the US is funding the majority of it right now. I think it would be much quicker for Russia to take over territory if the Ukraine gets defunded completely. Also, it would be memory holed as another conflict is getting more coverage in the Middle East. Bad PR by the Western press will last for like a week.

EDITED: Missing word in bold.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

The ordinary Ukranian people are the biggest losers in this war, and they never wanted it to begin with.

Wasn't there a poll recently that said Ukrainians are like 80% for continuing to fight until they have control of Crimea and the breakaway republics?

How much of this is lugenpresse, how much is gamblers fallacy?

- Rampant looting and chaos among major cities. Z man will need to divert military personnel from the front lines to police and restore order.

We saw some rampant looting last March when the festivities were just getting underway, but since then it seems like they've got the shit under control. Looting happens when people feel that authority and law enforcement is far away and focused on other shit. Nowadays I think there's enough of a military presence in many cities in Ukraine for looting to not really get out of control.

I guess if there's a real complete collapse of the Ukrainian state, but even then lots of people down the food chain like cops and military will be doing their previous jobs by inertia for a while before the situation really devolves into Escape from New Kyiv

If a coup happens or Zman abdicates the throne and a junta takes control then it's not going to cause looting IMHO. Really depends on how it happens and how much groundswell can be generated to catalyze the public into rioting.

 

[Kane Lives]

Wasn't there a poll recently that said Ukrainians are like 80% for continuing to fight until they have control of Crimea and the breakaway republics?

There's also the "shy voter" effect here. Are you really going to tell the nice man in the suit that you won't support Ukraine all the way? Especially when he knows your address.

 

[crustystipend]

It's conceivable you are correct. But the price is paid in death and bereavement every day that this continues.

The death and bereavement that the Atlanticist blob has wrought around the world can easily be counted in the millions. It's about time that it got a massive and direct backlash from its provocation and adventurism - a chastened West that is forced to sort out its own backyard has less appetite for foreign adventures, quite possibly fewer deaths in the long run.

I'm going to disagree with the Ukraine getting more aid so they can lose more territory for my bias reasons that the US is funding the majority of it right now. I think it would be much quicker for Russia to take over territory if the Ukraine gets defunded completely.

The big danger is soft-hearted Europhile Putin getting sweet-talked into yet another awful deal for Russia, once Ukraine collapses.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

I did find some articles just off the first page of my search and was surprised about how the US military actually wants to put them in the field for use with the Marines.

The US wants all infantry to have suppressors not for stealth but so they can hear. All of those rounds being fired are supersonic so they can still be heard a mile away the difference is the shooter can still hear orders after the first shot is fired plus less risk of long-term hearing damage. Hearing disabilities from combat has turned into a huge cost for the VA after 20 years of forever wars. There was also a massive class-action lawsuit and/or settlement with the US Govt for issuing faulty ear protection to soldiers. Now with suppressors smaller, costs falling off a cliff and 3d-printing manufacturing it's economical to make them standard issue.

[Apologies to the guy earlier complaining about gun tech talk. You're not any fun.]

 

[No Scope]

The big danger is soft-hearted Europhile Putin getting sweet-talked into yet another awful deal for Russia, once Ukraine collapses.

I can see this happening if Trump was back in office where he gets Putin to sign an agreement and where it's upheld during his term. However, I do not trust the next guy when Trump leaves office because it' will be back to funding proxy wars by the US again.

The US wants all infantry to have suppressors not for stealth but so they can hear. All of those rounds being fired are supersonic so they can still be heard a mile away the difference is the shooter can still hear orders after the first shot is fired plus less risk of long-term hearing damage. Hearing disabilities from combat has turned into a huge cost for the VA after 20 years of forever wars. There was also a massive class-action lawsuit and/or settlement with the US Govt for issuing faulty ear protection to soldiers. Now with suppressors smaller, costs falling off a cliff and 3d-printing manufacturing it's economical to make them standard issue.

Whoever gets that gov't contract is going to be rich. The life of a suppressor, especially when using it on FA, is not going to last very long. Also, it would need to be somewhat fool proof. By this, I mean if it was using threads or lugs at the point of attachment where the suppressor is loose fitting. You will get baffle strikes inside. I'm basing all this off my knowledge of watching review videos and reading articles about suppressors over the years.

[Apologies to the guy earlier complaining about gun tech talk. You're not any fun.]

No worries, it's all good. I hold no grudges. In fact @VargReallyDidNothingWrong replied back to my post that was informative about looting in his area. I'm not at all familiar with some countries outside the US. So getting first hand accounts of events is revealing.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

In fact @VargReallyDidNothingWrong replied back to my post that was informative about looting in his area.

Sorry, I said "we saw some looting" referring to people monitoring the happening (via 4chan, telegram, this thread, etc). I am not in Kiev or anywhere near Ukraine.

Didn't want to cause any confusion

 

[MrJokerRager]

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Whoever gets that gov't contract is going to be rich. The life of a suppressor, especially when using it on FA, is not going to last very long.

Sig Sauer already won it with a whole new next-gen platform to replace M4/M16 and saws. These are supposed to be the new standard service infantry rifle - the suppressors are 3d-printed and standard issue:

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/04/19/army-chooses-sig-sauer-to-build-its-next-generation-squad-weapon/

There's still some doubt if they'll really go to a whole new caliber (6.8mm vs 5.56NATO) but that would mean billions more for the MIC as every country has to basically replace all their small arms.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

There's still some doubt if they'll really go to a whole new caliber (6.8mm vs 5.56NATO) but that would mean billions more for the MIC as every country has to basically replace all their small arms.

Jewish hands read this and rub each other vigorously.

Who decided the army needed to completely retool their fucking small arms logistics with a completely new caliber of ammo, a new rifle, and one with as many problems as those new caliber and rifle have?

The generals or colonels or whoever signed off on this idea are gonna get some FAT private sector contracts when they retire for "consulting".

 

[No Scope]

Based off the 11/26/2023 video from the Military Summary channel. The US Abrams is now in the Ukraine in Kupiansk at 7:21 mark.

Ukrainians Flee From Positions In Avdos, Kupiansk, Klishchiivka, Krynky. Military Summary 2023.11.26​

Spoiler

 

[Pаzuzu]

I can see this happening if Trump was back in office where he gets Putin to sign an agreement and where it's upheld during his term. However, I do not trust the next guy when Trump leaves office because it' will be back to funding proxy wars by the US again.

I can't even imagine how all of this is gonna be resolved at the end. The trust level is at the bottom, everyone's just seizing each other assets. It's gonna take huge effort to restore the relationships.