Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

You’re stretching pretty hard to lay Calvin’s execution of Serveto at the feet of the Catholic Church.

I don't think he was exactly. I read up on the guy and Protesants ultimately put him to death. He was more asking like why believe in any church when Protesants and Catholics can fuck up like that?

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

He didn't say "unless..."

So are you implying that God withholds His grace from everyone and no one can be saved, or are you implying that God will grant His grace to everyone for the mere act of believing in His existence? Because the Donatists believed the former and the Antinominalists believe the latter. Satan acknowledges God's existence too, is he also saved?

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

There are differing degrees of reward in heaven and differing degrees of punishment in hell. The afterlife is not a communist equality-zone.

I never said that. We were talking about praying to saints

So are you implying that God withholds His grace from everyone and no one can be saved, or are you implying that God will grant His grace to everyone for the mere act of believing in His existence? Because the Donatists believed the former and the Antinominalists believe the latter. Satan acknowledges God's existence too, is he also saved?

I never said anything of the sort.

Satan would be saved if he was repented I assume.

I'm not saying anything about how god does salvation, I'm talking about worship of saints

Do you honestly think we Catholics think the Pope is God the Father?

They sure act like it

 

[Dr. Kinder]

I never said that. We were talking about praying to saints

But you made the leap into saying that no saint is better than you. Meaning that your level of holiness and sanctification is equal to any saint's.

If I were in Stephen's position I wouldn't proclaim the truth and get stoned to death. I would have quietly hated the murderous apostate jews, smirking silently and correcting none of their errors, leaving them to die in sin. That's because I'm not good.

 

[Devout Muslim]

You're ignorant. The Catholic Church attempted to have him executed and he escaped. Go read a book and fix your stupidity.

Doesn’t change the fact that it was Calvin who had him killed. The Catholic Church is responsible for killing many heretics but not Serveto.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Doesn’t change the fact that it was Calvin who had him killed. The Catholic Church is responsible for killing many heretics but not Serveto.

The bloodlust of "Holy Mother Church" is duly noted. Catholic church authorities had the desire in their hearts to murder Servetus. That they were too incompetent to pull it off does not obviate their guilt.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

But you made the leap into saying that no saint is better than you. Meaning that your level of holiness and sanctification is equal to any saint's.

Quite the opposite actually. I was saying we are all servants of god and christ says no man is without sin or is righteous

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

I'm not saying anything about how god does salvation, I'm talking about worship of saints

The passage you quoted concerns salvation. Christ is explaining how divine grace works to a man who recognizes virtue and genuinely desires to be made right in the eyes of the Lord. God is the source from which all virtue disseminates; do you believe that He hands us talents of silver and expects us to be like the unfaithful servant and do nothing with them?

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

The passage you quoted concerns salvation. Christ is explaining how divine grace works to a man who recognizes virtue and genuinely desires to be made right in the eyes of the Lord. God is the source from which all virtue disseminates; do you believe that He hands us talents of silver and expects us to be like the unfaithful servant and do nothing with them?

Not at all. I'm saying the opposite. Salvation comes from God alone. Not from saints or angels and not from starving yourself.

The topic at hand was intercession..isaiah this holy man you're worshipping, wrote that we do not need intercession

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

The topic at hand was intercession

The topic was intercession until you brought up eschatological egalitarianism. The saints are the faithful servants who invested the silver they were granted. They are only equal to us in essense, meaning they have the same opportunity to arrive at salvation. However, they were far further up the ladder of divine ascent when they reposed than we are now at this current moment. That is what makes them far more virtuous than you or I.

God grants us the grace to pursue salvation, as without His grace, the gates of paradise would be closed. However, just because He holds open the door and gives us every push and incentive to enter the door doesn't mean we'll make it inside if we resist and do nothing with our lives. You claim to be Christian, but what have you done that distinguishes you from a non-Christian?

Salvation comes from God alone. Not from saints or angels and not from starving yourself.

Saints don't arbitrate on behalf of God when they intercede on behalf of men, how many times does that concept need to be beaten into your skull? A saint's prayers aren't going to reverse the will of God. When Emperor Trajan was ripped from Hell and transported to Heaven by the intercessions of St. Gregory, the decision and arbitration was God's and God's alone. God made sure St. Gregory was well aware of this fact by beating him over the head about how foolish his prayers would have been had he prayed to a less merciful diety.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

The topic was intercession until you brought up eschatological egalitarianism. The saints are the faithful servants who invested the silver they were granted.

servants. Not god

However, they were far further up the ladder of divine ascent when they reposed than we are now at this current moment. That is what makes them far more virtuous than you or I.

And so you pray to them instead of god?

You claim to be Christian, but what have you done that distinguishes you from a non-Christian?

Accepted god as...God and accepted christ as the messiah that God sent.

Saints don't arbitrate on behalf of God when they intercede on behalf of men, how many times does that concept need to be beaten into your skull? A saint's prayers aren't going to reverse the will of God.

Then there is no point in praying to them?

When Emperor Trajan was ripped from Hell and transported to Heaven by the intercessions of St. Gregory, the decision and arbitration was God's and God's alone. God made sure St. Gregory was well aware of this fact by beating him over the head about how foolish his prayers would have been had he prayed to a less merciful diety

And what does this have to do with praying to dead people?

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

Accepted god as...God and accepted christ as the messiah that God sent.

Whay makes you different from a Messianic Jew or an Ophite Satanist?

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Whay makes you different from a Messianic Jew

I follow Christ's teaching to via the apostles that the law is fulfilled in christ

or an Ophite Satanist?

I don't worship satan

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

I follow Christ's teaching to via the apostles that the law is fulfilled in christ

So do Messianic Jews (and demons)

I don't worship satan

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

So do Messianic Jews (and demons)

Demons do not and messianic jews do not. Messianic jews still circumcise and follow deutero.. laws

You're the one defending praying to idols and false gods and dead ppl. I prey to god alone

 

[Tablet County]

You're the one defending praying to idols and false gods and dead ppl. I prey to god alone

Christians never die silly.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Christians never die silly.

Exactly

 

[Tablet County]

For the sake of clarity, if any of the Christian infidels in this thread are interested in examining Otoya Yamaguchi's schizophrenic understanding of the religion he claims to follow, I recommend checking out this thread.

You can judge for yourself if Otoya is baiting you or if he really is a buttfucking kafir.

 

[Devout Muslim]

The bloodlust of "Holy Mother Church" is duly noted. Catholic church authorities had the desire in their hearts to murder Servetus. That they were too incompetent to pull it off does not obviate their guilt.

They had it in their hearts to try him for the crime of heresy, which he was undoubtedly guilty of. If they wanted to murder him they could have done that. Even so, it stands firmly that they are not guilty of a sin that they did not commit.

Frankly, from what little information is available, he was clearly had a antagonistic, arrogant, and vitriolic personality. He himself supported execution of heretics, he just thought that *everyone else* was heretical and *he* wasn’t. As Jesus Christ the Living God noted, those who live by the sword will die by it.

Many others with similar views on the trinity (i.e. other heretical deniers of the divinity of Christ) were not executed for their beliefs by Genevan authorities. So it seems rather cute to assert he was executed merely for those same beliefs that were tolerated in others.

 

[Atomic Ant]

Raised with the bare minimum of catholic beliefs and dropped my faith in the pope and his circle but would it be bad to say that I think Jesus was a mortal in life but divine after he died? Anglicism just makes a bit more sense to me but the trinity would make sense as well.

This is the heresy of Nestorius. Its a question at least 1600 years old. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

I would really recommend that you research orthodoxy. It's a liturgical, apostolic church very similar to Rome, but unlike Rome, the orthodox don't have a pope. Church government is conducted by council of bishops, and no bishop is able to speak with singular infallibility. Rather, we believe that because this is the church that Jesus founded, God will put it back on the right path, even if in a given age the majority of the church falls into heresy. You can see how that mechanism would never work if you believe a man who holds an office can speak infallibly. This has actually happened in the past, in the 3rd century the heresy of Arius had found favor in much of the church, but was eventually condemned at Nicaea.

Orthodoxy broadly rejects metaphysical dialectics, we dont think there is any tension between Christ as man and Christ as God. He is fully and always both. Fuck Hegel, Hegel sucks.

*I forgot but very much want to add, a lot of people get a false idea that Orthodoxy is comprised of ethnic sects (Ive even heard Josh express this before on MATI). That's just incorrect. The tradition of Orthodoxy is to have "autocephalous" (self-governing) churches which hold service in the local vernacular. This means that the bishops that oversee these churches have the freedom to govern as though they were their own "local pope", but are ultimately subject to rulings of councils held between them. "Greek Orthodox" is not to insinulate that its for Greek people, it just means theyre in communion with the Greek church and may hold services in Greek as well as the local vernacular. Ultimately the differences between different regional churches are quite small. Bartholomew is kind of a cuck though so I'm with the Antiochians.

Sorry for doublepost but I wanted to separate my slapfighting from my defense of orthodoxy.

At the end of the day there’s the acknowledgment that there are two natures in one hypostasis,

you mean three hypostases, one nature right? Everything else you said was on point so im assuming you meant it the other way. edit: i misunderstood what the homie was talking about

because God says you dont need to

Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Saints are humans. they are not angels. they cannot operate on behalf of God

Apostolics do not pray to or worship saints. We ask saints to pray for us. You dont need to have the owner's brother as a reference when you apply to that job, but it damn sure won't hurt.

You're the one defending praying to idols and false gods and dead ppl. I prey to god alone

So lets say I show you a polaroid picture of my wife, right. I say, "This is my wife. I love her dearly." Do you think that when I say "this is my wife", I'm talking about the image on the piece of paper in my hand? Do you think I'm literally married to the photograph? And when I say I love her, am I saying I love the index card shaped object in my hand?

Or is this merely a representation meant to point your mind to the real thing?

of course it is possible to make unholy icons, or to make an idol of an icon. But icons are not idolatry any more than the photograph of my wife is literally my wife. Iconoclasm is peanut brained