Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[Dr. Kinder]

Since Vatican II? That's the blink of an eye in terms of Church history. Why don't you just ask me to name the best three Popes since the turn of the century?

The first Council of Nicaea in 325 to combat Arianism, the heresy it appears your example was preaching. Heresy is serious business. Immortal souls are on the line. Those are stakes much more grave than one man's time on Earth. May God have mercy on his soul. I'm not going to argue about what should have been done. Justifying an abandonment of the Church seems to be quite a bold response to what you view as being a grave mistake. I would argue that shattering Christ's Church is a graver consequence than killing one of His servants.

You haven't argued with any of my post. You made heretofor unsubstantiated claims about Apostolic succession and the worthlessness of any historical claim to it. Then, I made my rebuttal (take it or leave it) which you ignored, to then air your (much more substantiated, thank you) grievance with the Church.

Green damp wood is used as a mercy so that smoke inhalation renders the condemned unconscious before killing them by asphyxiation. I thought everyone knew this.

Until next time. Go with God.

His death is carefully recorded by many witnesses. He was not asphyxiated. He was not unconscious. He was awake and conscious for the entire thing.

Do you believe all of the Arians should have been killed, too? Should everyone who says things and publishes things that are incorrect about the nature of God and Christ be killed? His heresy is no more rank than the heresies of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you feel they should all be murdered by the state as heretics?

Furthermore, you do believe Protestantism has fractured and even attempted to shatter what you view as Christ's one true holy catholic church, yes?

So therefore, by your logic, Protestants are much more worthy of death than murderers. Killing another person is nothing compared to "shattering Christ's church," after all.

 

[A Real Munson]

His death is carefully recorded by many witnesses. He was not asphyxiated. He was not unconscious. He was awake and conscious for the entire thing.

I'll take your word on it. I didn't mean to suggest that he must have died more gently for it, only that this is why the practice was done.

Do you believe all of the Arians should have been killed, too?

It's funny that you ask this when further on you say that "by [my] logic, protestants are much more worthy of death than murderers." That isn't my logic, nor does it follow what I said above. Still, it sounds pretty fucking based when you put it that way.

Should everyone who says things and publishes things that are incorrect about the nature of God and Christ be killed?

No. That doesn't even follow from what I said. Calm down.

His heresy is no more rank than the heresies of the Jehovah's Witnesses. Do you feel they should all be murdered by the state as heretics?

His heresy would have been more dangerous. By this point, the damage is done.

Furthermore, you do believe Protestantism has fractured and even attempted to shatter what you view as Christ's one true holy catholic church, yes?

Protestants did shatter the Church. There are other schisms that exist which are troubling, but nothing I'm aware of has caused more damage to the Church, nor threatened more souls, than protestantism. It's not just a schism either. It's an absolute free for all of heresy. The world may never recover from that damage.

So therefore, by your logic, Protestants are much more worthy of death than murderers. Killing another person is nothing compared to "shattering Christ's church," after all.

No, the damage is done and they've been deceived by satan. It might be a different story if they were fewer and if doing so could prevent the splintering so much of the Church. Even then I doubt it, but you're not comparing apples to apples.

Again, what I said is: Forsaking the Church as response to the outrage you felt is, bold and maybe inappropriate. Also, one man's time on Earth, is not of the same weight as an indefinite number of immortal souls.

 

[Tablet County]

I know I'm technically not allowed here—not being Christian—but as an amateur theologist and curious boy I'm confused as to why Christians still characterize mankind as fallen after the whole Christ on the cross thing. I thought the point of Jesus's sacrifice was to take all of man's punishment upon himself, thereby absolving humanity of original sin. Or is vicarious atonement less of a popular concept than I was led to believe?

 

[Dr. Kinder]

I know I'm technically not allowed here—not being Christian—but as an amateur theologist and curious boy I'm confused as to why Christians still characterize mankind as fallen after the whole Christ on the cross thing. I thought the point of Jesus's sacrifice was to take all of man's punishment upon himself, thereby absolving humanity of original sin. Or is vicarious atonement less of a popular concept than I was led to believe?

Because the plain and observable reality is that every thought in the heart of man is evil continually. Christianity isn't a masturbatory thought-system untethered from reality but a systematic account of why things are the way they are. The reality is people are fundamentally evil. How does Christianity explain this? Through the teaching of the Fall.

Forget original sin for the moment. You are a sinner. You lie, you've probably done unethical things for personal gain, and worst of all your conscience is a perpetual motion machine of self-justification keeping you trapped in sin. You are a sinner and you need Jesus. So don't worry about guilt inherited from Adam. You've done plenty, out of your own will and choices, to render yourself a rightfully condemned sinner.

So you stand fallen and condemned and an abstract appeal to substitutionary atonement will not save you. Christ's Holy Spirit must take up residence within you for you to be saved. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and in so doing receive the Holy Spirit and salvation.

 

[Tablet County]

Because the plain and observable reality is that every thought in the heart of man is evil continually. Christianity isn't a masturbatory thought-system untethered from reality but a systematic account of why things are the way they are. The reality is people are fundamentally evil. How does Christianity explain this? Through the teaching of the Fall.

Forget original sin for the moment. You are a sinner. You lie, you've probably done unethical things for personal gain, and worst of all your conscience is a perpetual motion machine of self-justification keeping you trapped in sin. You are a sinner and you need Jesus. So don't worry about guilt inherited from Adam. You've done plenty, out of your own will and choices, to render yourself a rightfully condemned sinner.

So you stand fallen and condemned and an abstract appeal to substitutionary atonement will not save you. Christ's Holy Spirit must take up residence within you for you to be saved. Believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and in so doing receive the Holy Spirit and salvation.

I appreciate that you're trying to convert me but if you want to have some luck you're going to have to word it in a way that doesn't make you sound like a complete nihilist.
Maybe I've just been compromised by satan but the way you put it makes it sound like life is one long divinely-gifted struggle session and nothing matters outside of winning brownie points with God.
This also doesn't really feel like an answer to my question.

 

[Fareal]

So therefore, by your logic, Protestants are much more worthy of death than murderers.

Yes. Murderers take only the life of the body. Heretics damn their eternal soul and the eternal souls of those whom they influence into sharing their heresy. It is the gravest of sins to deny Christ and lead His lambs astray.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Yes. Murderers take only the life of the body. Heretics damn their eternal soul and the eternal souls of those whom they influence into sharing their heresy. It is the gravest of sins to deny Christ and lead His lambs astray.

Your bloodlust is duly noted. The New Testament demands exile, not execution, for heretics.

life is one long divinely-gifted struggle session and nothing matters outside of winning brownie points with God.

"Earn brownie points with God" has no resemblance to anything I said. How could you earn something from God when He gave you your life in the first place? Any good that you do is only possible because God made you. Life is a gift from God, and you can't earn a gift.

What I'm curious to know is whether you acknowledge that you are basically evil, motivated by your own comfort, have lied and will continue to lie when it's convenient for you to do so, and that you're incapable of being truly good. This is the human condition. Schopenhauer rejected the Christian faith but acknowledged the accuracy of the Christian view of human nature.

Any view of human nature other than the tragic view is self-deception and flattery. You won't appreciate or value the need for a Savior if you haven't looked in the mirror and seen yourself for what you are.

 

[Tablet County]

"Earn brownie points with God" has no resemblance to anything I said. How could you earn something from God when He gave you your life in the first place? Any good that you do is only possible because God made you. Life is a gift from God, and you can't earn a gift.

What I'm curious to know is whether you acknowledge that you are basically evil, motivated by your own comfort, have lied and will continue to lie when it's convenient for you to do so, and that you're incapable of being truly good. This is the human condition. Schopenhauer rejected the Christian faith but acknowledged the accuracy of the Christian view of human nature.

Any view of human nature other than the tragic view is self-deception and flattery. You won't appreciate or value the need for a Savior if you haven't looked in the mirror and seen yourself for what you are.

I'd like to have an actual conversation here and you're just kind of ranting ethereally. If you'd clarify what you said instead of going off on one I'd be willing to listen but if you're not willing to level with me I'll just start larping as a muslim again and accusing you of having gay sex like I do with Otoya.

 

[Dr. Kinder]

I'd like to have an actual conversation here and you're just kind of ranting ethereally. If you'd clarify what you said instead of going off on one I'd be willing to listen but if you're not willing to level with me I'll just start larping as a muslim again and accusing you of having gay sex like I do with Otoya.

You asked why humanity isn't already fully redeemed from sin. The objective evidence of overwhelming sin present in the world demonstrates that we aren't. Ok, you may say, but why not?

The world is full of people who understand the intellectual propositions of the Christian faith but don't accept them. The Bible states that for people to be saved--which includes redemption from sin, the topic of your question--it's necessary to confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that Jesus is Lord.

The gift of Christ's substitutionary atonement is received by faith. Most people in the world do not have faith in Christ and therefore have not received the benefits of Christ's atonement.

You are not redeemed and have not received the benefits of Christ's atonement. That's not a high and mighty proclamation from me: I haven't either. If I died right now I'd go to hell and I'd deserve it richly. I enjoy it far too much when my enemies suffer. When fat people fall and hurt themselves, I am delighted. When sodomites are thrown from roofs, I laugh. So I'm as evil as you and everyone else.

This is the basic condition of human nature and it is what prevents the world from being universally and immediately justified by Christ's blood. The ones for whom Christ's blood effectually purges their sins are the ones who receive the blood by faith.

 

[Tablet County]

You asked why humanity isn't already fully redeemed from sin. The objective evidence of overwhelming sin present in the world demonstrates that we aren't. Ok, you may say, but why not?

The world is full of people who understand the intellectual propositions of the Christian faith but don't accept them. The Bible states that for people to be saved--which includes redemption from sin, the topic of your question--it's necessary to confess with your mouth and believe with your heart that Jesus is Lord.

The gift of Christ's substitutionary atonement is received by faith. Most people in the world do not have faith in Christ and therefore have not received the benefits of Christ's atonement.

You are not redeemed and have not received the benefits of Christ's atonement. That's not a high and mighty proclamation from me: I haven't either. If I died right now I'd go to hell and I'd deserve it richly. I enjoy it far too much when my enemies suffer. When fat people fall and hurt themselves, I am delighted. When sodomites are thrown from roofs, I laugh. So I'm as evil as you and everyone else.

This is the basic condition of human nature and it is what prevents the world from being universally and immediately justified by Christ's blood. The ones for whom Christ's blood effectually purges their sins are the ones who receive the blood by faith.

Essentially what I'm asking here is what purpose did Christ's death serve? What changed from before the crucifixion to after the crucifixion? Was faith in God not already the path to heaven or was it just reserved to his chosen people until after Christ's sacrifice?
I'd always understood that it was to absolve man of his original sin, thereby making man "sanctified" (figuratively not literally, I don't know a better word to use in this case) in a way that would allow humans to climb Jacob's ladder.
Now I know that there are a billion different sects that all disagree on what is and isn't right so maybe I'm just looking at one group's interpretation and getting it mixed up.
On that note what sect do you belong to?

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Christ's death serves to redeem sinners for the glory of God. Where is the glory in that gruesome execution? Christ continued to love mankind even as men murdered him. He asked the Father to forgive the crowds that mocked Him as He died. That kind of shocking, overwhelming, unconditional love was put on display in order to glorify God.

Furthermore, no topic has been lied about more than God has. By providing His Son as a perfect example, God leaves those who twist His commands with no excuse. Evidence is needed in order for any claim about God to be worth believing because con artists love invoking God. Christ's death and resurrection provide evidence for the claim that God loves human beings. When charlatans claim that God wants you to send $777 to "sow your seeds of faith," or when some furry with an anime PFP starts ranting and raving that some Japanese dude was the reincarnated messiah, the free gift of love poured out by Jesus Christ reveals the fraudulence of these appeals.

In terms of salvation, if not for Christ's death, nobody would be saved at all. Because Christ died, those who receive His loving sacrifice by faith can have their their sins purged and dwell eternally in paradise. Here is the key to understand: before Christ came, those who were saved were those who looked forward to the day of His coming. The Messiah was prophesied from the earliest stages of the Old Testament. All along, salvation has revolved around Christ.

 

[Tablet County]

Christ's death serves to redeem sinners for the glory of God. Where is the glory in that gruesome execution? Christ continued to love mankind even as men murdered him. He asked the Father to forgive the crowds that mocked Him as He died. That kind of shocking, overwhelming, unconditional love was put on display in order to glorify God.

Furthermore, no topic has been lied about more than God has. By providing His Son as a perfect example, God leaves those who twist His commands with no excuse. Evidence is needed in order for any claim about God to be worth believing because con artists love invoking God. Christ's death and resurrection provide evidence for the claim that God loves human beings. When charlatans claim that God wants you to send $777 to "sow your seeds of faith," or when some furry with an anime PFP starts ranting and raving that some Japanese dude was the reincarnated messiah, the free gift of love poured out by Jesus Christ reveals the fraudulence of these appeals.

In terms of salvation, if not for Christ's death, nobody would be saved at all. Because Christ died, those who receive His loving sacrifice by faith can have their their sins purged and dwell eternally in paradise. Here is the key to understand: before Christ came, those who were saved were those who looked forward to the day of His coming. The Messiah was prophesied from the earliest stages of the Old Testament. All along, salvation has revolved around Christ.

While your purple prose gets on my nerves I appreciate your answering my question. I do wonder why you seem so defensive at times. Is it because I said I'm not Christian? Don't misunderstand, I'm not asking these questions in an attempt to tear down or smear your faith, I am genuinely curious. Believe you me I have a deep and profound respect for Christianity, even if its practicioners sometimes leave something to be desired.
And you didn't answer me about your faith. Are you methodist, calvinist, catholic, seventh-day adventist?

 

[Dr. Kinder]

I already told you I'm not a Christian: if I die, I'll go to hell. I don't go to church and I don't see why God would save any person. Nobody is worthy.

It doesn't make any difference to me whether you respect the Christian faith. I don't care about your motives and that's why I didn't ask. I don't like you as a person, either. Your postings are shit and so are you.

The murder of Servetus is too much to get past. It's not possible that the Holy Spirit operates as people say He does, yet John Calvin the murderer and the bloodthirsty Catholic authorities had the Spirit. If they did have the Spirit yet wanted to kill Servetus anyway, then what use is the Spirit?

For a long time I believed but I don't anymore. The Servetus murder destroys the entire paradigm. I say again, what use is the Holy Spirit if those who have Him still lie, still seek power, and still kill?

The attempted responses earlier in the thread are worthless. I'll leave the believers in peace.

 

[Tablet County]

I already told you I'm not a Christian: if I die, I'll go to hell. I don't go to church and I don't see why God would save any person. Nobody is worthy.

It doesn't make any difference to me whether you respect the Christian faith. I don't care about your motives and that's why I didn't ask. I don't like you as a person, either. Your postings are shit and so are you.

The murder of Servetus is too much to get past. It's not possible that the Holy Spirit operates as people say He does, yet John Calvin the murderer and the bloodthirsty Catholic authorities had the Spirit. If they did have the Spirit yet wanted to kill Servetus anyway, then what use is the Spirit?

For a long time I believed but I don't anymore. The Servetus murder destroys the entire paradigm. I say again, what use is the Holy Spirit if those who have Him still lie, still seek power, and still kill?

The attempted responses earlier in the thread are worthless. I'll leave the believers in peace.

Okay.

lol
Anybody who isn't having an existential crisis who I can talk with?

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

I know I'm technically not allowed here—not being Christian—but as an amateur theologist and curious boy I'm confused as to why Christians still characterize mankind as fallen after the whole Christ on the cross thing. I thought the point of Jesus's sacrifice was to take all of man's punishment upon himself, thereby absolving humanity of original sin. Or is vicarious atonement less of a popular concept than I was led to believe?

I don't have a problem with anyone being here as long as they aren't disingenuious.

As to your question, He didn't die on the cross to destroy Original Sin, rather He did it to offer himself as the perfect sacrifice through which all sin can be forgiven if you believe and trust in Christ. Jews used to offer up all sorts of animals as blood atonement sacrifices, but men continue to sin once the sacrifice has been made and you need countless animals for every sin.

Jesus is called the Lamb of God because He is the perfect one sacrifce of body and blood for the remission of sins. You don't have to blood atone to God anymore, the sacrifices has been made and graces given if you only believe and ask for them and do your best to sin no more.

I'm Catholic, btw.

 

[Otoya Yamaguchi]

Are you claiming that James did not speak for God and did not have the Holy Spirit? Otherwise your comment is nonsense. Do you trust that God spoke through the texts that were eventually compiled into our Bible? Or do you think they are just the words of man and you can overrule them as you please? In which case, where are you getting your information about God from?

You know how jews have access to the old testament but got a lot of stuff wrong about the messiah? Kind of like that.

I didn't say James wasn't with the holy spirit, I'm saying if James gets something contradictory (seemingly or actually) to something God said earlier, I will side with what God said.

Additionally, your interpretation of James words could be wrong too

 

[HyperboreanRightsActivist]

He did it to offer himself as the perfect sacrifice through which all sin can be forgiven

He died to trample death by death. I.e. to destroy death's power as a judge and a debt-collector forever, and to elevate human nature from a fallen state to one capable of deification

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

He died to trample death by death. I.e. to destroy death's power as a judge and a debt-collector forever, and to elevate human nature from a fallen state to one capable of deification

Also correct. I was singing that part of the liturgy in my head and had it written out but had a tie in loss moment for a second and had to go do something else.

Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and forever. Amen.
O, Only-Begotten Son, and Word of God, Who, being immortal, deigned for our salvation to become incarnate of the holy Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, and became man without change;
You were also crucified, O Christ, our God, and by death have trampled Death, being One of the Holy Trinity, glorified with the Father, and the Holy Spirit, save us

 

[Dr. Kinder]

Something's gotta give here. The Servetus episode has consumed my thinking and it's not going anywhere good. I know I need Christ but I'm paralyzed by real doubts about what the Holy Spirit is doing in the world. It just keeps weighing on me: if burning heretics alive is truly what the Spirit wants, then isn't every person on the face of the earth worthy of being burnt alive? We've all had blasphemous and heretical thoughts and, as Scripture teaches, we're guilty when we sin in our hearts and minds. The same religious-political leaders who had harbored all manner of hatred toward neighbor, haughtiness of theology, stiff-necked vengefulness, and overweening spiritual pride now presided over the burning alive of Servetus, a designated scapegoat.

How can it be that their doctrines were correct but their hearts were inclined toward violence? It's nothing short of Pharisaical. They turned a man made in the image of God into a satanic parody of a burnt offering.

So how do you guys reconcile these things? How do you retain your faith in the Holy Spirit of the Living God in light of a historical record of offenses committed by men who supposedly had the Spirit?

 

[Blobby's Murder Knife]

The Servetus episode has consumed my thinking and it's not going anywhere good.

Well clearly.

I know I need Christ but I'm paralyzed by real doubts about what the Holy Spirit is doing in the world. It just keeps weighing on me: if burning heretics alive is truly what the Spirit wants, then isn't every person on the face of the earth worthy of being burnt alive?

Who says it is what the Holy Spirit wants or not? All we can know for sure is that is what man wanted. God left us free to choose our own paths in this life. He never promised things would be easy or make sense if we followed Him. He only promised that if we did and did our best to reject Satan and sin, we would be made worthy of life everlasting.

I wrote before God's Mercy and Love for us is unending. You just have to trust in it. We shouldn't be focused on this life beyond being made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Try not to spend so much time worried about what others are doing and just focus on your own inner spiritual life. It might help to start praying the rosary or using it for the Jesus Prayer. It is a form of meditation that calms the mind a bit and helps bring us in closer relationship with those in Heaven.

An exorcist once said the demonic is the perfection of self-hatred. When you wind yourself up like this you risk falling into despair and self-hatred yourself. You are right where the Devil wants you. He wants to see you suffering like this. He hates you like he hates himself.

Take a deep breath. Catholics have the three virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Try to focus on applying those to yourself. Have faith, don't give up hope, and be charitible, especially towards yourself, my brother. Trust in God. He wants more than anything for you to be with Him.

If you are still confused on what to do, remember Mark 12 30-31:

30 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”