Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[ForTheHoard]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the USSR (and even Russia/Ukraine today) still count a vehicle as "lost" if it was damaged and abandoned in combat, even if it was later recovered, repaired, and returned to service? And that this is the real explanation behind the massive reported number of Soviet tank losses during WWII, as well as the absurd number of reported Russian/Ukrainian tank losses in the current conflict?

Tanks were also a lot harder for infantry to knock out back then. Shoulder fired rockets were very new and the warheads weren't as reliable or devastating. Guided bombs were also in their infancy. Since then, the cost to design and build a tank has increased drastically, where the cost of defeating it has dropped significantly. Armor technology at the time slightly outpaced armor-defeating technology.

A 100 million dollar tank today would have cost about 7.5 million in 1945. A $3,500 drone with a warhead zip tied to it would have cost about about $200. If one of the involved countries at the time could reliably destroy an enemy tank for under $500 without risking equipment or lives, the war would have ended a lot faster.

Tank warfare is still useful under some circumstances, like when you're fighting an army that's 100+ years behind you technologically. Even that's starting to go away as the technology to safely destroy a tank is becoming more available to 3rd world nations than reliable rifles. We squeezed out the toothpaste when Obama started selling drones to Iran, and it's never going back in the tube again. Unless there's a huge leap in anti-drone technology soon, armor is more or less obsolete in a war between modern armies. Reinforced concrete bunkers that are buried 50ft underground aren't even safe anymore.

 

[YumeNoHero]

DIE UKRAINIAN NIGGERS DIE DIE DIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Calm down nigger.

I was Internet friends with a guy who burned himself to death in Prague for autistic reasons a long time ago, but at least he pulled it off, it's a shame retards these days can't even do this right.

Liveleak retards done it right with just a can of oil and this retard somehow couldn't do it with more oil.

 

[Napoleon III]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the USSR (and even Russia/Ukraine today) still count a vehicle as "lost" if it was damaged and abandoned in combat, even if it was later recovered, repaired, and returned to service? And that this is the real explanation behind the massive reported number of Soviet tank losses during WWII, as well as the absurd number of reported Russian/Ukrainian tank losses in the current conflict?

Sort of as this is a complicated issue although I don't know in regards to the current Ukraine war especially since many of the armored vehicles Ukraine has received are not able to be repaired due to lack of spare parts anyway.

Certainly the USSR lost an absurd number of tanks which is why it often very hard to find pre-war and the earlier model of T-34 tanks that survived the war. So many of those tanks were lost and immediately replaced. However many tanks were lost and later recovered or scraped for spare parts etc. It is a very messy and difficult to find an objective way to measure a loss.

I consider it good enough that if a vehicle is unable to participate in current or near future action and needs to be replaced then it should be considered a loss. Even if it is repaired the fact that isn't working now is important enough.

Tanks were also a lot harder for infantry to knock out back then. Shoulder fired rockets were very new and the warheads weren't as reliable or devastating. Guided bombs were also in their infancy. Since then, the cost to design and build a tank has increased drastically, where the cost of defeating it has dropped significantly. Armor technology at the time slightly outpaced armor-defeating technology.

A 100 million dollar tank today would have cost about 7.5 million in 1945. A $3,500 drone with a warhead zip tied to it would have cost about about $200. If one of the involved countries at the time could reliably destroy an enemy tank for under $500 without risking equipment or lives, the war would have ended a lot faster.

Tank warfare is still useful under some circumstances, like when you're fighting an army that's 100+ years behind you technologically. Even that's starting to go away as the technology to safely destroy a tank is becoming more available to 3rd world nations than reliable rifles. We squeezed out the toothpaste when Obama started selling drones to Iran, and it's never going back in the tube again. Unless there's a huge leap in anti-drone technology soon, armor is more or less obsolete in a war between modern armies. Reinforced concrete bunkers that are buried 50ft underground aren't even safe anymore.

I take issue with a lot of the history in your post. There were plenty of capable infantry anti-tank weapons even early in WW2. Both the Germans and the Soviets produced infantry anti-tank rifles for a long time. In addition, anti-tank guns were a lot smaller and more portable. But even middle and late war there were Panzerschrecks, Panzerfausts and Bazookas. These were pretty good at killing tanks and were responsible in the case of the Germans of tank kills. But still tanks were useful.

Infantry having tools to fight tanks was not rare for any time in the history of tanks really. Tanks being unkillable is not what makes them worthwhile. What makes tanks useful is their ability to function within a combination of different arms and do things other arms cannot. A proper engagement is not going to ever be some tanks vs some infantry. It's going to be tanks and infantry and artillery vs infantry. In short tanks are useful as a part of Combined Arms Warfare.

You are correct though about the cost of tanks meaning that they have to be rationed and you don't use them at every opportunity. You are also right about one of the most significant things about drones is there ability to be cheap. In particular drones are a source of precision munitions that are much cheaper than many missiles. I'd also agree that armor development has been an arms race with armor not being effective as it should be especially for the cost.

I could say a lot more about how before drones anti-tank weapons were also very cheap in comparison to tanks or how tactics may be developed for dealing with drones and war is dynamic with things that are true now changing really easily or how underground concrete bunkers are still a massive pain(see siege of Azovstal).

However I don't think there is much value in doing so.

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

This might change in the future, but as thing currently are, you can have a handful of drones in the air at the same time, because they need individual operators, have a very limited flight time and single use.

A tank is basically an armored pillbox with a high caliber gun that can lob 50+ HE shells at a fortification, take out enemy IFVs, suppress enemy trenches with machinegun fire while infantry closes in, use its thermals to detect enemies and then retreat (probably) to fight another day. All this takes 3-4 crew.
It still can be used in a support role, just not like how 30 years ago, in big armored pushes.



Fuck you too, thank you.

Correct, plus newer tank designs will take lessons learned in Ukraine into account.

Remember, Ukraine is still BEGGING for tanks and all manner of AFVs, not pickup trucks with ATGMs and HMGs mounted on the back.

Also, many newer tanks are so expensive because they really aren't made in big numbers anymore. Some tanks have 200-500 units made and that's IT

Tanks, like most military equipment, Should be make in the thousands of tens of thousands.

Tanks have problems most noticeably in the form of drones. I think part of the issue with tanks in regards to drones is nobody has really been able to fully adapt to the presence of drones since basically everyone underestimated them. Perhaps much like how Soviet formations had dedicated local anti-air to deal with US air power army formations will have dedicated anti-drone formations and probably things like this are developing within the Russian Army already. Also I suspect the Ukrainian side especially since they haven't been able to support their armored vehicles very well has more issues with drones.

Yep, FPV drones vs tanks is only really a year old.

The next gen Euro tank, Abrams, T-90M obr. 2025 and newer Chinese/S. Korea and Indian tanks will take those lessons into account.

Thinks like dedicated anti drone guns/missiles, jamming devices, tweaked armor layouts, laser dazzlers, and so on.

Same thing happened when shaped charges and the ATGM arrived.

 

[ForTheHoard]

I take issue with a lot of the history in your post. There were plenty of capable infantry anti-tank weapons even early in WW2. Both the Germans and the Soviets produced infantry anti-tank rifles for a long time. In addition, anti-tank guns were a lot smaller and more portable. But even middle and late war there were Panzerschrecks, Panzerfausts and Bazookas. These were pretty good at killing tanks and were responsible in the case of the Germans of tank kills. But still tanks were useful.

I'm not saying the means didn't exist, just that it was a somewhat new horizon at the time and isn't nearly as refined or effective as infantry based AT weapons are today. AT rifles were popular early in the war but started losing out to thicker and better angled armor later in the war. I might be neglecting to factor in skill and discipline as well. A German AT team in 1943 was probably a lot more effective with an early Panzerfaust than a Hohol today with a half a million dollars worth of guided javelin missiles.

 

[namelesstacotruck]

Going back to false flag by the US crap. The thing to remember is that the audience they have to convince for that isnt Europe, Japan, South Korea, or Australia. (The US vassal states)

Its China, India, and to the lesser extent the middle east. Africa and South America dont matter. Russias relations with those countries are what matter to any world conflict. And thoss countries are the arbiters of if the US or Russia went too far in what is a US vs Russia war with Ukraine as the US proxy.

Note that this game has been played many times. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, other shit holes. So far Russia has been following the rules established in the cold war for that bullshit. Its the US pushing the envelope and the non US vassals can clearly see that

 

[Strix454]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but didn't the USSR (and even Russia/Ukraine today) still count a vehicle as "lost" if it was damaged and abandoned in combat, even if it was later recovered, repaired, and returned to service? And that this is the real explanation behind the massive reported number of Soviet tank losses during WWII, as well as the absurd number of reported Russian/Ukrainian tank losses in the current conflict?

Its impossible (IMO) to make any sense of the soviet tank production and loss numbers in the war. I think the "losses" reported did include damaged or temporarily out of service tanks. But that at some point the USSR production records were "normalized" to account for those reported losses by retroactively misreporting production. That normalization also would explain why soviet tank production numbers during the war and losses are so close to equal (98k produced, 96k lost).

The problems with the reported numbers become progressively clearer when they are broken down into losses in particular offensives and the units that took part in those offensives. If the numbers are accepted as true, you end up with often implausible losses given the reports of the battles from both sides and often losses that far exceed the number of units committed.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

"The East German AKs were the best" I can go along with that.

"The DDR were the based ones".......that's a hard no from me paht-nuh.

The DDR maintained more German tradition. Look at their uniforms, they're clearly derived from Imperial Germany just like Weimar and the Nazis were and their military as a whole retained a lot of elements and tradition from the Imperial German (and ultimately Prussian) army. Interesting they also were the biggest funders of Nazism post-war since all the neo-Nazi parties in West Germany were infiltrated by the Stasi and received money from them. IIRC it was actually more than communist movements in West Germany received.

A lot of East Germany's problems were that they had to deal with millions of refugees ethnically cleansed from Eastern Europe AND Stalin dismantled a fuckton of factories and basically looted the country after the war. It was also the poorest part of Germany for centuries and some places like the former Grand Duchy of Mecklenburg still retained a lot of traits of feudalism until the early 20th century. It speaks a lot to the Eastern Bloc's economic problems that the DDR had one of the highest standards of living in that part of Europe.

I take issue with a lot of the history in your post. There were plenty of capable infantry anti-tank weapons even early in WW2. Both the Germans and the Soviets produced infantry anti-tank rifles for a long time. In addition, anti-tank guns were a lot smaller and more portable. But even middle and late war there were Panzerschrecks, Panzerfausts and Bazookas. These were pretty good at killing tanks and were responsible in the case of the Germans of tank kills. But still tanks were useful.

AT rifles were obsolete against everything except light tanks/those shitty infantry support tanks and their role was disabling non-tank armored vehicles or as anti-materiel rifles. At absolute best you'd be lucky enough to damage the tread, but then you'd probably get machine gunned to death since a tank is a pillbox on treads.

 

[The giant penis of doom]

The biggest lesson of World Wars.

Don't lose.

No, the biggest lesson is, unless you can exterminate ALL the kikes infesting every major power around the world, don't even start it.

(The US vassal states)

This really depends on what do you mean by convince. The US doesn't need to convince the average Chinese peasant. But it does need to convince Hans Kleindick. Sure, these vassal states have effective measures at controlling narratives and convincing their people, but they are not perfect.
On the other hand, they need to convince the Chinese leadership, not about the truth of their lies, because lol, obviously they lie, this is politics, but that this is a workable situation for the chinks in the geopolitical sense.

 

[geckogoy]

Tanks are not ineffective. Obsolete tanks are however very dangerous to operate when outclassed. For instance, if you are told to participate in the latest assault on avdiivka in a T-72A that has the original 1970s fire control and optics with no improvements, you will most likely die. Even the dude with the javelin will spot you ten times further away than you can spot him. A modern tank would have better thermal optics still.

 

[MrJokerRager]

So if Biden decides to invade Iran.

Is that enough for the rest of the world to see America is lead by not morally bankrupt folks but amoral folks.

Sanctions for opposing buttsex is probably something that the John Birch society would have accused the Soviets of doing in the 1950s, but it's the US federal government filled with shitlibs and closet communists doing it.

 

[Male Idiot]

The germans are already building new tanks, Hungary has finally bought the new Panther 2.0, likely due to how the newly bought Leopard 2 7a or what not isn't looking good after the Leopards did jack shit in Hoholistan.

I do expect small, mobile flak to make a comeback.

 

[Radola Gajda]

When the underwater pipeline was bombed everyone suspected it was America right away, and those suspicions have not been properly denied. If some place gets nuked with no warning it's going to obviously be America's fault.

Tbf therere were plenty of peop... Retards who believed Ruzzia did it. Same "people" who believe Orcs did blow up those Polish peasants with type of Rockets without range to be launched from Russian held territory. Or how Ruzzia spent weeks shelling power plant occupied by Ruzzian soldiers

 

[01169]

I've read a funny take today. With Germany having opened its welfare system for at least 200.000 Ukrainian fighting age men they've dealt a bigger blow to Ukraine's war effort than Russia on the battlefield.

Are we the baddies?

 

[White_N]

I love how in the first picture, the NVA guys are looking at him like "WTF is this?"

It reminds me of the North Koreans' reaction to K-pop.
Who would have thought that the nihilists and radicals of the 20th century would become trads in contrast to the horrors of ultra-liberalism?

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

It reminds me of the North Koreans' reaction to K-pop.
Who would have thought that the nihilists and radicals of the 20th century would become trads in contrast to the horrors of ultra-liberalism?
View attachment 5611005

Because capitalism lets you commodify that nihilism and radicalism and nigh-encourages you to amp it up to 11 in the name of topping the competition. Capitalism is society-warping powerful, that's why it makes you rich but it can also absolutely destroy everything in that quest for economic efficiency.

 

[Gondolindrim]

The SBU security service said four Kiev residents could face 12 years in prison for sharing “illegal” footage

Four Ukrainian citizens have been arrested after posting videos of Russian airstrikes on the Kiev region, local authorities said, noting they could be charged for “adjusting enemy fire.” Moscow targeted multiple military sites around Kiev earlier this week, though the Ukrainian military claimed to have intercepted most of the missiles.

Ukraine’s SBU security service announced the arrests in a social media post on Wednesday, claiming the four unnamed bloggers had “made an unauthorized video recording” of Russian strikes and shared the footage online.

“The Security Service once again emphasizes the prohibition of shooting and publishing video and photo materials regarding the activities of the Defense Forces, as well as the consequences of enemy strikes,” the agency continued, adding “The publication of such media files is considered adjusting enemy fire, which is punishable by up to 12 years in prison.”

The SBU went on to note that the strikes took place on January 2 as part of a “massive Russian missile and drone attack” on Kiev.

Russia’s Defense Ministry described the operation as a “group strike with long-range precision weapons and unmanned aerial vehicles on enterprises of the military-industrial complex of Ukraine,” adding that it targeted arms-manufacturing sites around the capital area.

Purported footage of the strikes has made the rounds online, though it remains unclear whether the videos were captured by any of those arrested on Wednesday. Some of the material appears to show strikes in progress, while other clips depict the aftermath of attacks.

On that day, the Ukrainian military claimed to have intercepted almost all incoming projectiles, including ten out of ten hypersonic Kinzhal missiles. Moscow previously ridiculed Kiev for exaggerating the effectiveness of its anti-aircraft defenses and claiming to intercept three times as many projectiles as Moscow actually launches. Moscow also repeatedly accused Kiev of deploying its air defense systems in residential districts, resulting in casualties among civilians.

Moscow’s missile and drone strikes intensified after Ukraine launched an attack on the Russian border city of Belgorod last week, killing 25 people, including several children, and injuring more than 100, according to local officials. In the early hours of January 1, Kiev also shelled Donetsk, a frequent target of the Ukrainian military since 2014, killing four people and injuring 13.

Russian President Vladimir Putin has vowed a response to those “terrorist attacks,” promising to ramp up strikes on Ukrainian military facilities, though stressed that Moscow had no intention of targeting civilians.

Source: https://www.rt.com/russia/590104-ukraine-arrests-russian-strikes-videos/

Nothing says failed dictatorship quite like arresting people for the crime of making the state look weak. Everything they accuse Russia of is a projection.

 

[Meh123]

The germans are already building new tanks, Hungary has finally bought the new Panther 2.0, likely due to how the newly bought Leopard 2 7a or what not isn't looking good after the Leopards did jack shit in Hoholistan.

I do expect small, mobile flak to make a comeback.

Isn't the reason for the change the fact that the new toys will be produced locally? I mean, Leopard 2s are no miracle tanks, but judging how they performed under hohol ownership is a bit harsh. I mean, Taras & Mikola would manage to blow themselves up in a MA12 Striker if they got one.

If I had to bet, I'd rather put my money on some kind of portable, low power radar / ESM to reliably - and in time - detect small drones. Targeting and killing them with a small caliber machine gun should be no problem once you know exactly where they are.
(But I also saw a vid about some kind of auto-shotgun on a mount that was proposed for exactly this purpose)

 

[Overly Serious]

Going back to false flag by the US crap. The thing to remember is that the audience they have to convince for that isnt Europe, Japan, South Korea, or Australia. (The US vassal states)

Its China, India, and to the lesser extent the middle east. Africa and South America dont matter. Russias relations with those countries are what matter to any world conflict. And thoss countries are the arbiters of if the US or Russia went too far in what is a US vs Russia war with Ukraine as the US proxy.

Note that this game has been played many times. Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, other shit holes. So far Russia has been following the rules established in the cold war for that bullshit. Its the US pushing the envelope and the non US vassals can clearly see that

I'm going to respectfully disagree. False flags in a situation like this would be primarily for the domestic audience. I.e. to get public support for a war back home. Not to convince other states. Case in point the destruction of the Nordstream 2 pipelines. We may not know with certainty who did it and how much of a proxy they were, but you'd be crazy to think it wasn't a US-aligned faction. Biden all but publicly stated they would do this. For any false flag, it would be similarly implausible that it would be Russia. Russia is winning the war. It's not really in doubt as to Russia comes out on top barring direct intervention by the West. So doing something that would cause direct intervention by the West is logically about the worst thing they could do. This chain of logic is simple, supportable and correct. And all other national leaders can follow it.

And if the case against any such action being Russia's doing is solid, the case for it being the USA is in itself fairly leading as well because the USA has form for this. Example, the "gas attacks" in Syria that was supposedly done by Assad. Dubious stage managed photos by the White Helmets, Assad mysteriously suddenly doing this when he's already winning, John Bolton personally threatening the head of the OPCW's children if he didn't go along with it (the guy is on video saying Bolton referenced knowing where his kids are to him face to face). A little thing called Iraq. Hell, the entire "we're just invading Afghanistan to look for Bin Laden" was hokum. Other countries know this. People in our own countries know this if they choose to think.

But there is a section of people in our own countries who choose not to think, or are afraid to think. Any false flag will be for them and will precede NATO intervention in Ukraine and at that point, we're now in WWIII. I think it's arguable we're already in the initial stages of WWIII, it's just not recognized as such yet. People are going to die in the millions if the USA does not start backing off.

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

People are going to die in the millions if the USA does not start backing off.

Instructions undlear, the USA doubled down instead.

Just like it's been doubling down on immigration, troonery, booster shots, etc, etc.