Business Thousands of Software Engineers Say the Job Market Is Getting Much Worse - 9,388 engineers polled by Motherboard and Blind said AI will lead to less hiring. Only 6% were confident they'd get another job with the same pay.


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For much of the 21st century, software engineering has been seen as one of the safest havens in the tenuous and ever-changing American job market.

But there are a growing number of signs that the field is starting to become a little less secure and comfortable, due to an industry-wide downturn and the looming threat of artificial intelligence that is spurring growing competition for software jobs.

“The amount of competition is insane,” said Joe Forzano, an unemployed software engineer who has worked at the mental health startup Alma and private equity giant Blackstone.

Has AI affected your job? We want to hear from you. From a non-work device, contact our reporter at maxwell.strachan@vice.com or via Signal at 310-614-3752 for extra security.

Since he lost his job in March, Forzano has applied to over 250 jobs. In six cases, he went through the “full interview gauntlet,” which included between six and eight interviews each, before learning he had been passed over. “It has been very, very rough,” he told Motherboard.

Forzano is not alone in his pessimism, according to a December survey of 9,338 software engineers performed on behalf of Motherboard by Blind, an online anonymous platform for verified employees. In the poll, nearly nine in 10 surveyed software engineers said it is more difficult to get a job now than it was before the pandemic, with 66 percent saying it was “much harder.”

Nearly 80 percent of respondents said the job market has even become more competitive over the last year. Only 6 percent of the software engineers were “extremely confident” they could find another job with the same total compensation if they lost their job today while 32 percent said they were “not at all confident.”

Over 2022 and 2023, the tech sector incurred more than 400,000 layoffs, according to the tracking site Layoffs.fyi. But up until recently, it seemed software engineers were more often spared compared to their co-workers in non-technical fields. One analysis found tech companies cut their recruiting teams by 50 percent, compared to only 10 percent of their engineering departments. At Salesforce, engineers were four times less likely to lose their jobs than those in marketing and sales, which Bloomberg has said is a trend replicated at other tech companies such as Dell and Zoom.

But signs of dread among software engineers have started to become more common online. In December, one Amazon employee wrote a long post on the anonymous employee platform Blind saying that the “job market is terrible” and that he was struggling to get interviews of any sort.

The situation is a stark shift from much of the past two decades, when computer science degrees and coding bootcamps exploded in popularity due to the financial security they both promised. Entry-level Google software engineers reportedly earned almost $200,000 a year and lived a life full of splashy perks, and engineers always seemed in high demand, meaning the next job was never hard to find.

As an undergraduate at the University of Pennsylvania in the early 2010s, Forzano had decided to major in computer science. The degree had put him in $180,000 of debt, but he saw it as a calculated bet on a sturdy field of work. “The whole concept was [that] it was a good investment to have that ‘Ivy League degree’ in an engineering field,” he said. He thought he’d be set for life.

Early in his career, that seemed to be true. Recruiters spammed him with opportunities, and he was easily able to jump from job to job and became a manager. The field felt so secure that the phrase “learn to code” became a mocking rejoinder whenever people in other fields expressed concern about their own job prospects online.

But the messages from recruiters have largely dried up since the pandemic, and getting the sort of jobs software engineers took for granted has become much harder. “There's just so much fucking competition,” he said. “It's a completely different landscape.” Thinking back to his decision to major in computer science as an undergraduate, he said he now feels “very naive.”

With the entrance of artificial intelligence into the conversation recently, there have been signs of a sea change in the coding world. AI programs that allow users to write code using natural language or auto-complete code were among the first wave of AI tools to take off. Google CEO Sundar Pichai said last year that AI-powered coding tools had reduced the time it takes workers to complete code by 6 percent.

“In the age of AI, computer science is no longer the safe major,” Kelli María Korducki wrote in The Atlantic in September. Matt Welsh, an entrepreneur who used to serve as a computer science professor at Harvard, told the magazine that the ability of AI to perform software engineering functions could lead to less job security and lower compensation for all but the very best in the software trade.

As of December, software engineers were not expressing much concern about AI making their jobs redundant. Only 28 percent saying they were “very” or “slightly” concerned in the Blind poll, and 72 percent saying they were “not really” or “not at all” concerned.

But when not considering their own situation, the software engineering world’s views on AI became markedly less optimistic. More than 60 percent of those surveyed said they believed their company would hire fewer people because of AI moving forward.

Forzano has not been shy about his trouble, sharing his pursuit for a new job on social media. The decision has led him to feel less alone, he said, as other tech workers expressed similar frustration about not being able to get interviews for jobs they felt overqualified for.

“We're all kind of like, ‘What the fuck is happening?’” he said.



Techbros... we got too cocky...

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On a more serious note, it's not that AI will sweep in and "took are jeeeerbs", the whole market is readjusting and with it, there will be lots of losses in the process. Just be sure to have an exit plan, no matter what.
 
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If you want an extremely secure tech job that involves programming. Learn to develop backend and understand (usually old) architecture. Such expertise is rarer and rarer to find and makes you extremely hard to get rid of.

Being a dumbass frontend web developer exposes you to being let go a lot more than other software engineering work. I deliberately moved out of app development into backend data related development. I've tried to quit my current job twice and they threw money at me to stay both times.
 
"Requires a security clearance: No we will not sponsor you getting one"
Yet another iteration of "5 years experience required on (x technology only 2 years old)"
Which brings me back to the hiring process being an absurd, incompetent, and now racist crapshoot.
Have you literally ever interviewed for a job requiring a security clearance?
Because if they want you, they will absolutely sponsor you getting one.
Almost all your posting ITT reeks of a code monkey who never got good at programming seething that he's constantly replaced by pajeets.
 
Alternatively, if you want a high paying tech job gig that doesn't even require programming. Learn an enterprise system like Salesforce, ServiceNow, Monday, Workday, etc.

Salesforce I like because they actually want you to learn it and you have lots of resources. But a Senior Salesforce Administrator that doesn't program anything is a $140k+ job and it takes like 5 years or less to get to that point.
 
Does it specify how many of those people have a second degree, or a good university for the first? I wouldn't be surprised there is a lot of competition for shitty baseline dev jobs.
 
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Have you literally ever interviewed for a job requiring a security clearance?
Because if they want you, they will absolutely sponsor you getting one.
Almost all your posting ITT reeks of a code monkey who never got good at programming seething that he's constantly replaced by pajeets.
Slight PL, I may or may not be in such a position.

And even though it's nice and comfy, I still don't see myself "over the hill" when it comes to the shakiness of the industry. I only speak for myself, but in my sector (Infosec) there seems to be a bit more activity; I could be wrong tho so don't take my word for it. At least my days of being a Sysadmin grunt are long behind me.

In the meantime, here's a blackpilled HN'er that made me chuckle.

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Nothing he says should be news to anyone, especially in the IT sector. No need to be gloomy either, but make sure to stay ahead of the game so you don't get caught with your pants down.
 
Have you literally ever interviewed for a job requiring a security clearance?
Because if they want you, they will absolutely sponsor you getting one.
If you don't have a clearance on your CV the algorithm they use throws it out before a human eye sees it, let alone before they get to the point they can "really want you"

Almost all your posting ITT reeks of a code monkey who never got good at programming seething that he's constantly replaced by pajeets.
Another passive-aggressive gaslighter.
My ignore list may start breaking slobbermutt's database.
 
Slight PL, I may or may not be in such a position.

And even though it's nice and comfy, I still don't see myself "over the hill" when it comes to the shakiness of the industry. I only speak for myself, but in my sector (Infosec) there seems to be a bit more activity; I could be wrong tho so don't take my word for it. At least my days of being a Sysadmin grunt are long behind me.

In the meantime, here's a blackpilled HN'er that made me chuckle.

View attachment 5628027

Nothing he says should be news to anyone, especially in the IT sector. No need to be gloomy either, but make sure to stay ahead of the game so you don't get caught with your pants down.
Maybe it's because I kind of back-doored my way into a developer role via sysadmin work, but it's always funny to me how much they never seem to have "be the single point of failure" as career goals, and then they're surprised when they get tossed to the wind.
If you don't have a clearance on your CV the algorithm they use throws it out before a human eye sees it, let alone before they get to the point they can "really want you"
Another passive-aggressive gaslighter.
My ignore list may start breaking slobbermutt's database.
My last employer literally sponsored me getting a clearance so I could work for them but go on bragging about how big your ignore list is, retard.
 
Does it specify how many of those people have a second degree, or a good university for the first? I wouldn't be surprised there is a lot of competition for shitty baseline dev jobs.
Degrees don't matter that much after the first few years. I have a bachelor's in history and got hired because I did certs and contracting work. In person college is arguably a bad move because it takes you out of the workforce for 4 critical years and puts you into debt for what is essentially a check mark on a list.
 
I've been a software engineer for 15 years now. What I mean by that as I have been working and being paid working in the tech industry. Not that I've been in the basement coding or anything like I did as a young buck. Degrees are useful for promotions or getting hired sure but after your first job getting the next one generally isn't that difficult.

Baseline dev jobs, specifically baselin app developer or web developer jobs have a lot of competition this is true. If you got your CS degree and your first job was embedded development or something you would not have trouble staying employed.
 
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Because it is. I'm sorry if you've decided to become a web dev once and stay a web dev forever and now it's not working out for you and what I'm saying offends you, but you've chosen to be the English major of programming and there's only so much demand for what you do at the rates you want to be paid.
Sure we can spend some time rambling about how badly the hiring processes and IT job market are fucked and how much we hate pajeets and I'll agree with you on all of that, but that won't change the reality that a lot of these people have willingly made a bad career decision. Ultimately you are responsible for your own career success.
the silver lining to the economy crumbling is that hopefully, finally, nodejs janitors can get wrecked and go back to working at Target or whatever they were doing before they were awarded DEI "programmer" jobs for completing a three hour Angular bootcamp course
 
Degrees don't matter that much after the first few years. I have a bachelor's in history and got hired because I did certs and contracting work. In person college is arguably a bad move because it takes you out of the workforce for 4 critical years and puts you into debt for what is essentially a check mark on a list.
It's not true for STEM though, since you need that rubber stamp that you can do high grade tasks including research.
 
Maybe it's because I kind of back-doored my way into a developer role via sysadmin work, but it's always funny to me how much they never seem to have "be the single point of failure" as career goals, and then they're surprised when they get tossed to the wind.
Turns out, wearing many hats throughout the years did pay dividends. Here's an insightful tweet about why Stripe favors fullstack engineers (that only reinforces my past exp):

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The main takeaway here is, don't be a code monkey chasing the meme framework of the month guys, make yourself useful by getting your hands on many other aspects of an app, that'll put you above the rest.
 
The software industry is having issues for a lot of reasons. Mass over hiring during COVID times, importing and contracting tons of cheap labour, but most importantly? Interest rates.

A whole lot of the more well known companies aren't very profitable, if they are profitable at all. Many of the huge profitable companies had frivolous projects and teams they can no longer justify. Startups are almost without exception unprofitable and hugely encumbered by debt.

The bloodbath was inevitable at some point and if anything I'm surprised the good times lasted so long.
Almost all your posting ITT reeks of a code monkey who never got good at programming seething that he's constantly replaced by pajeets.
All his posts in A&N are him sperging out. Would you want to work with someone like that?
 
It's not true for STEM though, since you need that rubber stamp that you can do high grade tasks including research.
It's not true for S, E, M, but it's true for most T jobs unless you're doing extremely specialized work. Even if you want to get a degree, make sure you do it remotely or online so you can work during the day and study at night. In IT work experience > degree.
 
The software industry is having issues for a lot of reasons. Mass over hiring during COVID times, importing and contracting tons of cheap labour, but most importantly? Interest rates.

A whole lot of the more well known companies aren't very profitable, if they are profitable at all. Many of the huge profitable companies had frivolous projects and teams they can no longer justify. Startups are almost without exception unprofitable and hugely encumbered by debt.

The bloodbath was inevitable at some point and if anything I'm surprised the good times lasted so long.
Here's Joma to further elaborate on this

 
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It's not true for S, E, M, but it's true for most T jobs unless you're doing extremely specialized work. Even if you want to get a degree, make sure you do it remotely or online so you can work during the day and study at night. In IT work experience > degree.
I'll take your word for it, since for me it was straight Masters to a well paying job. The big issue is getting your foot through the door to even have experience.
 
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why Stripe favors fullstack engineers
This one's easy enough.
Stripe has a huge profile and gets to dictate that, just like sony does.
Due to the size of stripe you're unlikely to get a full stack experience working there as well: you want a small startup, the same kind of company being choked to death by the current rate hikes unfortunately.
The trick is to find a startup that's profitable, and get in early. You gain full stack experience and subject matter expertise on their software.
 
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Can't hear you over the noise of these machines I have to fix. You say something??

*Okay it is charging now. What did you want?
 
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If you don't have a clearance on your CV the algorithm they use throws it out before a human eye sees it, let alone before they get to the point they can "really want you"
Some companies do, but that this isn't the rule across the board. If you want to get one, you will eventually find an employer willing to do the paperwork for you.

In the meantime, here's a blackpilled HN'er that made me chuckle.

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https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38948444
I don't even think this should be called a blackpill. This is just good advice. This is especially good advice if you managed to work your way into a FAGMAN company. They don't care about you, take their money, do the work and walk away when the time is right. I like where I'm at, but go to work every day knowing that I can be gone in 24 hours. That's just America, you want to fix it, make outsourcing and pajeet tech firm H1-B abuse impossible and repeal right-to-work laws.

The software industry is having issues for a lot of reasons. Mass over hiring during COVID times, importing and contracting tons of cheap labour, but most importantly? Interest rates.
All of the FAGMAN CFOs and HR directors should be fired for incompetently stumbling into the COVID bubble. But executive directors protect their own, especially if it's infected with pajeets.
 
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