Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Doctor Love]

Such weapons are rarely used.

It's a shame. From what I could suss, Western tanks need special modifications for operating above 4000m. Air density of around 2/3rds that of sea level.

They need an air compressor because, evidently, they seem to require at-least 1kg of oxygen per second at the minimum and optimally, 1.5kg. That wouldn't really work if the air itself had a lower oxygen content, though.

It seems like if you just kept throwing them, it would snuff out the engines of most Western vehicles.

But at that point, it would be difficult to describe the Russian conquest of Avdiivka as a victory. Taking the city would advance the front line a few miles, at best, in Russia’s favor. Is that with tens of thousands of casualties?

I swear to Christ, drone operators are the new flame troopers. What kind of war journalist publishes this filth?

Ah, nevermind.

 

[Mutthole]

It's a shame. From what I could suss, Western tanks need special modifications for operating above 4000m. Air density of around 2/3rds that of sea level.

They need an air compressor because, evidently, they seem to require at-least 1kg of oxygen per second at the minimum and optimally, 1.5kg. That wouldn't really work if the air itself had a lower oxygen content, though.

It seems like if you just kept throwing them, it would snuff out the engines of most Western vehicles.



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I swear to Christ, drone operators are the new flame troopers. What kind of war journalist publishes this filth?

View attachment 5682059
Ah, nevermind.

The most annoying thing about David "Retard-Liar" Axe is his use of italics is breathtakingly excessive! Take a look at any recent article and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Doctor Love]

The most annoying thing about David "Retard-Liar" Axe is his use of italics is breathtakingly excessive! Take a look at any recent article and you'll see what I mean.

You know what, I'm going to reduce my italic usage. Specifically because of that guy.

 

[IamnottheNSA]

But at that point, it would be difficult to describe the Russian conquest of Avdiivka as a victory. Taking the city would advance the front line a few miles, at best, in Russia’s favor. Is that with tens of thousands of casualties?

As a gay catboy once said: "AND THERE IT IS!"

Now watch as twitter analysts go “ACKSHUALLY Avdeevka was always strategically irrelevant” once it’s fully taken over.

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

It would be very, very hard to declare avdeevka strategically irrelevant since Ukraine's been building defenses around it since 2014.... It's their strongest stronghold and also within the vicinity of shelling the city of Donetsk.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

Victoria Nuland is in Ukraine today holding tryouts for a new military commander and probably the next President!

https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/status/1752636575853252663

https://twitter.com/USAmbKyiv/status/1752705894193025440

 

[Napoleon III]

It's a shame. From what I could suss, Western tanks need special modifications for operating above 4000m. Air density of around 2/3rds that of sea level.

They need an air compressor because, evidently, they seem to require at-least 1kg of oxygen per second at the minimum and optimally, 1.5kg. That wouldn't really work if the air itself had a lower oxygen content, though.

It seems like if you just kept throwing them, it would snuff out the engines of most Western vehicles.

This is true but I'm not really sure that disabling tanks this way is super useful. There is already plenty of stuff out there that can kill or disable tanks really easily. Drones especially have been a really cheap and effective method at killing tanks.

The main use for Thermobaric weapons is to kill people within fortified positions. It is very difficult to use munitions to kill people in bunkers or even trenches. Thermobaric weapons are much more effective at this and so they are excellent for dealing with this. The reason why Thermobaric munitions are not used more often is they are expensive to produce compared to regular artillery shells and firing them is much more difficult because they have to be bigger. So in most cases it is better to use regular artillery. But for the specific problem Russia is facing Thermobarics are excellent and Russia should make more of them.

The problem of fortified positions being hard to take is the root cause of the frontline moving very slowly. As it stands right now the best way to clear a fortified position is an assault by infantry. You can use tools like artillery and armor to help but infantry has to clear the position. This is a problem because infantry takes a lot of casualties when it does this. This is also the same problem faced in WW1. This was primarily solved by two general ways. The first was fire and maneuver tactics where the infantry pins the defenders while moving by firing. This helped but the most effective way was through the use of tanks and armored vehicles to break through the initial lines in concert with infantry and artillery. But this problem has reemerged because armies have developed very good tools to kill tanks engaging in an assault leaving us back to square one. This is why Ukraine has become attritional warfare because there isn't really any other means to fight this war. Even if you manage a breakthrough you still have to do the initial breakthrough which is a very expensive attritional fight.

Russia or any modern army is going to have to find solutions to fix the problem of infantry assaults being deadly. They have been using Thermobarics more often than they did in the early war and the development of a craft built one by the DPR suggests they are trying to get as many as possible. Wagner's assault detachment which contained expendable prisoners with special training was another method. Russia has also tried to get the maximum amount of attrition for the least amount of assault by shaping their battle into that U type of shape. That shape allows them to fire artillery from multiple directions and to make so that any unit will be under fire whenever it moves.

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

The author of the article as much as admits that he doesn't believe his own nonsense by closing his story saying that even if Avdiivka were to completely fall, it would mean nothing.

Ukraine is : the country.

The new strategy for Ukrainian victory:
Practice voluntary celibacy

"Don't fuck your wife, get fucked by the 21st Guards Motor Rifle Brigade instead."

 

[Doctor Love]

This is true but I'm not really sure that disabling tanks this way is super useful.

It would be able to be done via artillery. It doesn't require overcoming the heavier armour of the Abrams with a drone, and doesn't require precision. Those are the two advantages - it's very hard to defend against things which happen in your general vicinity. No armour in the world will defend against a barrage which doesn't even touch you.

The reason why Thermobaric munitions are not used more often is they are expensive to produce compared to regular artillery shells and firing them is much more difficult because they have to be bigger.

I would disagree with the premise that the regular shells are better for any purpose.

To my knowledge, the thermobaric is a mixture of a flammable gas or liquid, aluminium or some other "reducing" agent to produce a more rapid, energetic reaction and an internal mechanism to separate it into two stages - the "distribution" of the payload and the "ignition" of it.

This doesn't seem to be "inherently" more complex than the other payloads. The internal mechanism, the substances inside, all of it seems roughly in-line with what you'd expect from a normal high-explosive payload. It seems, to me, that the main reason they are expensive is mainly because they need additional materials.

Russia or any modern army is going to have to find solutions to fix the problem of infantry assaults being deadly. They have been using Thermobarics more often than they did in the early war and the development of a craft built one by the DPR suggests they are trying to get as many as possible.

The DPR being able to build them backs up what I was saying a little - I think they might be struggling to "keep up with demand" but if the DPR can make them, then that is only a time problem.

 

[Midwit]

The Sun tabloid is now blatantly publishing hohol propaganda for its midwit readers:

Sun readers don't care about the truth unless she's got big tits.

I would disagree with the premise that the regular shells are better for any purpose.

They can be produced faster and cheaper, ergo it is more practical to use them as your main armament since you can equip your artillery forces more quickly and at a lower cost. Remember that good enough usually is.

 

[Strix454]

This helped but the most effective way was through the use of tanks and armored vehicles to break through the initial lines in concert with infantry and artillery. But this problem has reemerged because armies have developed very good tools to kill tanks engaging in an assault leaving us back to square one.

IMO, the biggest problem right now is the delivery of the infantry to the location to be cleared. There are alot of modern systems that can substitute for the direct fire and breakthrough capabilities of the tank. The infantry can also clear positions in a relatively effective way still. But assembling a concentration of infantry for an attack and delivering the infantry to the point of attack has gotten extremely difficult. Any concentration of infantry (or anything) on the battlefield today immediately draws overwhelming firepower down on it. Delivering infantry to the point of attack requires something like a charge by APCs across usually open ground.

 

[Doctor Love]

They can be produced faster and cheaper, ergo it is more practical to use them as your main armament since you can equip your artillery forces more quickly and at a lower cost. Remember that good enough usually is.

100%

The weapons currently used are largely based off of the inertia of the previous wars - it's easier to maintain than to start afresh with novel technology.

But how much of that cost difference is based off of that inertia? At a glance, chemically, the components don't seem to be more difficult to produce than those "standard" rounds. I don't know if I am right on that, though.

If there's an inherent reason why the fuel-air rounds are more difficult to produce then long-term they should stay as specialised weapons. If it's something heavy, like a specialised weapons platform, then stay as standard. But from what I can see - the current weapons are compatible with the same platforms.

And the fact that the DPR is able to produce them implies that they are only more expensive because they're different from the standard and there's fewer production facilities with the required machinery. If that's all it is, then get more machinery.

It doesn't seem like there's any situation where they're "worse" - not just "fantasy Abrams choking" but in every situation I've seen them used, they outperform every other type of weapon. Obviously, that's just what I've seen, but that seems like it should be a goal.

 

[Strix454]

Victoria Nuland is in Ukraine today holding tryouts for a new military commander and probably the next President!

As a reminder, Victoria Nuland is the most ultra of the ultra-Ukraine hawks in the state department. In 2014 she was deeply complicit in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government of the time and notorious for a leaked conversation during those events when she said "Fuck the EU" during a break from selecting the members of the new Ukrainian government.

She is currently acting second in command at the state department. Acting because there is zero chance she could ever be confirmed in the job if they actually nominated her for it. She is despised in Europe and also despised within the US foreign policy community. She has a reputation of being a totally awful person.

She was Dick Cheney's foreign policy adviser during the launching of the Iraq War. But she is of such influence in Washington that she has been a regular figure in every administration - democrat or republican - (except Trumps) since 1993.
-----
ed -

I somehow forgot the best part. She is the wife of Neoconservative monster Robert Kagan. Robert Kagan is the brother of fellow monster military interventionist Frederick W. Kagan whose wife runs the Institute for the Study of War (ISW). One big happy family.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

As a reminder, Victoria Nuland is the most ultra of the ultra-Ukraine hawks in the state department. In 2014 she was deeply complicit in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government of the time and notorious for a leaked conversation during those events when she said "Fuck the EU" during a break from selecting the members of the new Ukrainian government.

She is currently acting second in command at the state department. Acting because there is zero chance she could ever be confirmed in the job if they actually nominated her for it. She is despised in Europe and also despised within the US foreign policy community. She has a reputation of being a totally awful person.

She was Dick Cheney's foreign policy adviser during the launching of the Iraq War. But she is of such influence in Washington that she has been a regular figure in every administration - democrat or republican - (except Trumps) since 1993.

Yep. Even pro-Ukraine twitter knows what this means which is why I included the "Oh no" reply tweet. The US is behind the reshuffle that's about to happen (that they all said was more Russian propaganda two days ago). A bunch of the NAFO crowd seem to be taking the rest of the day off now. Fun times!

 

[Candlelight Desolation]

As a reminder, Victoria Nuland is the most ultra of the ultra-Ukraine hawks in the state department. In 2014 she was deeply complicit in the overthrow of the Ukrainian government of the time and notorious for a leaked conversation during those events when she said "Fuck the EU" during a break from selecting the members of the new Ukrainian government.

She is currently acting second in command at the state department. Acting because there is zero chance she could ever be confirmed in the job if they actually nominated her for it. She is despised in Europe and also despised within the US foreign policy community. She has a reputation of being a totally awful person.

She was Dick Cheney's foreign policy adviser during the launching of the Iraq War. But she is of such influence in Washington that she has been a regular figure in every administration - democrat or republican - (except Trumps) since 1993.

So now I'm guessing she's going to handpick someone to replace the guy that just got kicked out or something even worse? This is gonna drag on even longer now? If even the pro Ukraine people don't like this, this cannot be good.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

So now I'm guessing she's going to handpick someone to replace the guy that just got kicked out or something even worse? This is gonna drag on even longer now? If even the pro Ukraine people don't like this, this cannot be good.

If anything the hirings/firings we're going to be hearing about in the coming days will end this thing faster.

 

[Strix454]

So now I'm guessing she's going to handpick someone to replace the guy that just got kicked out or something even worse? This is gonna drag on even longer now? If even the pro Ukraine people don't like this, this cannot be good.

She can literally do anything she wants, remove anyone she wants or promote anyone she wants.

If they sent her special to Ukraine, its either to cuss out Zelensky over the Zaluzhny thing. Or to personally visit Zaluzhny and demand his resignation because Zelensky was too weak to get it done.

 

[Doctor Love]

That shape allows them to fire artillery from multiple directions and to make so that any unit will be under fire whenever it moves.

In did a bit of googling and I learned two things.

Firstly, the Geneva Convention only applies to irritants or chemicals which prohibit breathing directly. It doesn't seem to include oxygen deprivation - taking away a chemical. Gas exchange in the lungs begins to fail at around 19%, and you're unconscious as low as 16%. The exchange of gases in the atmosphere isn't exactly fast - humans are less vulnerable than vehicles which will fail after only a few seconds, while humans take a little longer.

Secondly, thermobaric doesn't necessarily mean complex. Literally "anything which burns really quickly and can be stuffed into a shell" - It uses air as part of the reaction, and people generally need that. Even without the explosive effect, it's still dangerous to anyone within an area. It creates a little "dead zone" of depleted oxygen and increased combustion products which lingers a little bit after the explosion.

Obviously there's complexities like wind and shit, but unlike any other munitions, every thermobaric shell just makes the dead zone bigger. Each detonation just displaces more and more oxygen, far more quickly than any other explosive. A thermobaric barrage would just choke out everyone who doesn't get killed by the explosions themselves.

It's similar to the effect the Chinese have. There's a huge chunk of ocean around China where the fish can't survive. It's not that hard to do the same to people. That unit wouldn't have to move out of cover to feel the effects. Any type of sustained barrage which uses air in its reaction would create such a dead zone.

Edit: to add, I forgot it would be really fucking hot lol. If it cooled or lingered a bit, it would still deprive enclosed pockets of oxygen. But for the open atmosphere it would rise pretty quickly.

I'm not sure if it would disperse too much to have such an effect.

 

[MrJokerRager]

 

[Napoleon III]

The infantry can also clear positions in a relatively effective way still. But assembling a concentration of infantry for an attack and delivering the infantry to the point of attack has gotten extremely difficult. Any concentration of infantry (or anything) on the battlefield today immediately draws overwhelming firepower down on it. Delivering infantry to the point of attack requires something like a charge by APCs across usually open ground.

This is true but It adds complexity to my explanation and it was long enough already. The same problems tank face APC/IFVs also face as you pointed out. I also avoided talking about counter-attacks for this reason even though it also factors in as well.

But you are entirely correct a big part of the issue or even the specific issue is that APC/IFVs are also really easy to kill and they have to travel a bunch of distance under threat. When infantry is actually storming a trench the casualties are more even. I remember Russia trying out the BMP-Terminator early in the war but I don't remember hearing much about it anymore. It could be just because it is a test and they don't want to risk it too much like the SU-57.

This is one of the departments I think Russia has been somewhat lacking in. A lot the things the Russian Armed Forces have tried is pretty conventional. Wagner tried something new and interesting and saw decent results. In this situation you should be experimenting. All throughout WW1 the military powers were trying this and that and a lot of it seemed to have failed but some it succeeded massively resulting in Storm-Troopers and armored vehicles. You also don't have to try new stuff on a massive scale. A squad or a platoon would suffice to try some of this stuff.

This is the last post I will make referencing this as it is only related because the DPR built one.

This doesn't seem to be "inherently" more complex than the other payloads. The internal mechanism, the substances inside, all of it seems roughly in-line with what you'd expect from a normal high-explosive payload. It seems, to me, that the main reason they are expensive is mainly because they need additional materials.

The problem with Thermobaric weapons is that they are very expensive. Because of the weight that is required to get a decent radius it has to be rocket artillery. This means the use of one of these is going to be millions of dollars.

There is a reason Russia has less than 50 of these around.