Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[The Foxtrot]

As much as it pains me, because people are going to die needlessly..but i soooo want them to use those a-10s against an actual power with actual air defence just to shut up the fucking a-10 fanboys with thier "brrrrrrrt" shit when they all get blasted out of the sky.

I'd love to see that as well. Bonus points for if those A-10s don't even manage to get a single kill before they're shot down.

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

7 chechen rebels have taken 200+ civilian hostages in a movie cinema. Russian police just gas the entire cinema and everyone dies, hostages as well as chechens.

Music theater, ackshually. Nord-Ost was THE musical of the season and it took Moscow by storm. Me and my friends went there to see the performance just a week before the terrorist attack, so we kind of dodged the bullet.

They canned the performance after the tragedy. In many ways, it was our 9/11 moment.

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

it's less than $10k because it's a metal box that'll crush you when you get in a car accident.

Yeah so it's like virtually any similarly sized shitbox from the mid 80's, which is when the Chevy Niva in the video was designed (in all ways except physically).

 

[Napoleon III]

Budanov has started giving interviews as if he is running the army. He is promising Ukraine will launch a new counteroffensive in the spring. He claims that Russia's offensive potential will be completely exhausted by then.

That is optimistic. But Ukraine has to constantly keep up the façade. I can't remember who but someone called it the Ukraine cinematic universe in a comparison to marvel movies.

He is also planning major attacks on what he calls the "economic infrastructure" of Russia as a whole.

This hints at the west setting objectives. The west expected this war to absolutely completely crush the Russian economy. And they have been angry that they failed ever since.

That being said I don't know how you do massive economic damage to Russia with some drones. You might manage to blow up some oil depots which will be a bit expensive to repair but ultimately it will accomplish nothing. It's like the Kerch bridge attack. Annoying perhaps but not a big deal.

I don't think I have ever heard of a successful instance of conventional bombing actually destroying the industry of a nation. It didn't work in WW2 it didn't work in Korea or Vietnam.

As much as it pains me, because people are going to die needlessly..but i soooo want them to use those a-10s against an actual power with actual air defence just to shut up the fucking a-10 fanboys with thier "brrrrrrrt" shit when they all get blasted out of the sky.

There is something very reddit about the people that like the A-10. That being said it is a well designed aircraft for its role. The A-10 is old but the US can't make good aircraft anymore. And if you are a country that plans to use air-power a dedicated close air support airframe is a good idea.

You get better and more effective CAS that is cheaper since you aren't using a fighter for that role. In addition, you can add things like the titanium bathtub to make it much more survivable if you are shot at.

in the 90's it was for urban operations.

I have heard that it was more deadly to be in a BMP in the Chechen wars than it was to be outside of it.
It'd be interesting to see what design decisions Russia makes after this war.

The Kyrnky operations have been very unpopular within the Ukrainian Army due to the difficulty of the fighting. The fighting had been rather static for a long while. The expansion of operations across the river and expansion of them in the middle of winter would suggest another change in military policy of some sort.

This may increase the probability for surrenders and mutinies. I don't know if the average soldier really knows about Zahluzhny but if the UAF do not have the things they want/need that Zahluzhny used to make sure they had then morale will falter.

Anyway, if this is what it takes to keep the conflict going and the sanctions to remain long term then at least the de-industrialization of europe and germany will continue, so it would not be all bad.

I'm not sure if Russia wants the de-industrialization of Europe. Concentrating more power in Washington is not good for Russia. Ideally you'd want all of Europe to act like Hungary rather than be a puppet of the US.

 

[01169]

That actually happened to one of my relatives!

Pretty sure that happened to you.

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

His misplaced concern over casualties in the 2023 Ukrainian offensive caused him to disregard the military plan presented to him by the United States military. The implicit argument is that if he had followed the plan and tactics he had been given, they would have won.

"To the last Ukranian!"

The Ukranian armed forces can still win a victory that will save Ukraine. Not against Russia, but against the evil foreigners who own and operate Ukraine's puppet government.

Or they can continue to their way to the total destruction of their nation. Suicide is a choice.

You might hope Azov and the other nationalist groups would understand they're being used as bullet catchers by people who hate them on a biological basis, but nazis have a noble tradition of being dead losers to maintain.

*Retarded noises*

I'm starting to think you're not even a real doctor.

Always keep in mind that America's goal is not to help Ukraine but to harm Russia. Civillian deaths, bombing markets, etc. is a useless way to win a war but it's very effective at prolonging a conflict. They don't want a peace negotiated on Russia's terms. If they can't win, then a drawn out quagmire of terrorism and unrest that they can fund (and they will) can at least ensure both sides lose.

From Ukraine's point of view, using escalatory tactics against an enemy who can escalate a lot more than they can is the dumbest fucking plan. If a giant is whaling on you, but sticking to Queensberry rules, the last thing you want is to give him a reason to elbow drop your nutsack.

But they're speed running a woke reboot of the fall of the Third Reich. Budanov is faggot Joseph Goebbels, and meme kills against civilian bridges or female Russian bloggers are the retard's version of Total War. None of this will change the outcome of the war, but it will raise the price Ukranians pay for losing the war, in blood and soil.

Budanov has started giving interviews as if he is running the army. He is promising Ukraine will launch a new counteroffensive in the spring. He claims that Russia's offensive potential will be completely exhausted by then. He is also planning major attacks on what he calls the "economic infrastructure" of Russia as a whole.

"I ask you: Do you want the total war?! Do you want it, if necessary, more total and radical than anything that we can yet today even conceive?!"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sportpalast_speech

Joseph Goebbels murdered his own six children* before he and his wife bought the express ticket to Hell. But in the reboot, Budanov will probably end up dead at the hands of Ukranian soldiers if a Kalibr doesn't find his asshole first.

As usual, the people who care most about Ukrainian lives are the people hoping Russia wins as quickly as possible.

*They were five little girls and one boy, aged between 13 and 5. Fucking nazis, man.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Interesting plan. They think that killing russian civilians will make Putin back down and russia to come crawling, begging for peace?

So, they've finally realized they aren't getting any land back, let alone Crimea, and think a guerrilla style campaign will benefit them...how, exactly?

Like someone said before, people for whom this war has not been a big concern will suddenly be very concerned. A real guerrilla campaign assumes local support, and there isn't any. It also assumes the belligerents can blend in, and while most hohols can-to a point, they won't blend in completely. While Russia still has a tight rein on their citizens, its no longer KGB tier but I suspect it won't have to be.

There are still people alive who suffered the siege of Leningrad as children; whose older brothers and parents died in the Great Patriotic War. If they think a bunch of hohols who run around doing this:

are going to carry out a successful guerrilla campaign in Russia, against citizens of the Russian Federation while the memories of 1941 are still within living memory then they merely gave Russians an excuse to support a total war on the Ukraine.

That said I am sure this was cooked up by retarded neocons in State and its just a terror campaign because they're pissed off their stupid plans to take over Russia went to shit.

 

[Doctor Love]

I'm starting to think you're not even a real doctor.

Oh that's just my first name.

 

[Givi]

A guerrilla campaign in the modern era in a flat, historically indefensible shithole like Ukraine is never going to happen, even discounting the lack of religious fanaticism, low value on life, massive differences in culture and language between invader/invadee and a plethora of other factors.

The most that could possibly happen is a small to medium scale terror campaign after the war is over but at that point Ukraine would likely be so war fatigued that it would just turn people against the perpetrators.

 

[Betonhaus]

I'm starting to think you're not even a real doctor.

He's "Doctor Love." His PhD is in sleaze, which is one step below Finnish interpretative dancing.

 

[Napoleon III]

The most that could possibly happen is a small to medium scale terror campaign after the war is over but at that point Ukraine would likely be so war fatigued that it would just turn people against the perpetrators.

I bet the Nationalist Battalions will be used for this. My impression is that they are full of criminals while the people at the top are the ones that are actually ideologically motivated. I believe they are run like gangs or organized crime. That being said I can't see criminals being super effective for this role. They are willing to kill people in the most savage ways but I don't think they are willing to die for it.

In addition, shutting down organized crime is not hard if you can torture people and you don't have to prosecute people in court. If a place is under Martial law the normal rules don't have to apply.

 

[Sir Joahim Browinson III]

A real guerrilla campaign assumes local support, and there isn't any.

Some retarded libs and easily convincible useful idiots might actually help them carry out their plans. Many such cases.

 

[Mutthole]

His PhD is in sleaze, which is one step below Finnish interpretative dancing.

Don't ever insult sleaze like that again.

 

[Rubick]

I have heard that it was more deadly to be in a BMP in the Chechen wars than it was to be outside of it.
It'd be interesting to see what design decisions Russia makes after this war.

Well, yeah. Especially Urban combat. Better situation awareness and response time. Not to mention in case of BMP-2's and 3' better chances of surviving mines and types of IED's.

Same went for Afghanistan.

To be honesty in case of Urban combat i wouldn't even personally want to be inside a Puma or a T-15.


Also, ridding on top of BMP's even predates Afghan war. And i'd bet my ass Russian troops will be ridding on top of Kurgy also when it comes into service. Though no doubt officers will try to put a stop to that.

 

[Napoleon III]

I remember there was a question of why tanks don't use EW to guard against drones. I said it was due to the fact drones move fast enough for it to not matter.
Here is a video of exactly this happening. Russian Lancet drone striking a Ukrainian T-72.

 

[Rubick]

Russian tanks with EW kit are showing up more and more. T-90M now comes with Volnorez EW kit. There is also Saniya system that has been seen on T-72B3.

 

[Napoleon III]

Not to mention in case of BMP-2's and 3' better chances of surviving mines and types of IED's

This is underrated in terms of protection. Mines have been a big but not super-discussed part of this war. I believe a lot of the tanks the US lost in the Middle east and Afghanistan were because of explosives underneath.

Russian tanks with EW kit are showing up + more and more. T-90M now comes with Volnorez EW kit. There is also Saniya system that has been seen on T-72B3.

I am skeptical of EW as a solution to drones. Upon reading the specifications of the Volnorez EW kit it doesn't seem super great. I bet it could defeat hobbyist drones but something like a Lancet would be just fine.

I have also basically heard of the US Navy trying to pursue EW as a counter-measure to drones but I am skeptical there as well.

EW never seems to have the range it is purported to and it is less effective on military hardware as they are built quite robustly.

 

[Legato]

I remember there was a question of why tanks don't use EW to guard against drones. I said it was due to the fact drones move fast enough for it to not matter.
Here is a video of exactly this happening. Russian Lancet drone striking a Ukrainian T-72.
View attachment 5686323

I think the new Lancets use optical tracking for the end of their run. They just lock the target to the middle of the camera and go boom.

 

[Betonhaus]

EW never seems to have the range it is purported to and it is less effective on military hardware as they are built quite robustly.

Correct me if I'm wong, but doesn't the Russian tanks use something like a rotating strobe that sends very powerful interference in a sweep that's just long enough to confuse the drone?

 

[Falcos_Commisar]

Drones seem to be a much bigger problem for conventional navies than for tanks.

They're hard to spot and are basically a multi hundred pound bomb that drive into you and explodes. They're also ultra cheap compared to even a small warship.

Maybe, how many vessels have they sunk now with drones and how many such attempts and drones have they used.

Confirmed sunk... One. Confirmed hitz more and one ship was sent to drydock for repairs.

Thing is, those little boat are stupid cheap and relatively hard to kill. You'd need little anti ship missiles and good EO/Thermal systems to be on the lookout and at least 2 remote autocannons per side of the ship and one or two on the bow and stern.

We'll be seeing all serious warships get more autocannons installed in a post Ukrainian war world.

I don't think I have ever heard of a successful instance of conventional bombing actually destroying the industry of a nation. It didn't work in WW2 it didn't work in Korea or Vietnam

It certainly worked in Korea, N. Korea was basically obliterated. Vietnam has very little industry to destroy.

In WW2 targeted bombing raids did lots of damage to specific industries or targets.

A guerrilla campaign in the modern era in a flat, historically indefensible shithole like Ukraine is never going to happen, even discounting the lack of religious fanaticism, low value on life, massive differences in culture and language between invader/invadee and a plethora of other factors.

The most that could possibly happen is a small to medium scale terror campaign after the war is over but at that point Ukraine would likely be so war fatigued that it would just turn people against the perpetrators.

Little things like constantly blowing railroad tracks, transformers, cutting power lines, and blowing up fuel tankers adds up. Not to mention straight up terror raids where 2-4 guys with machine guns show up at the local military recruitment drive and start shooting everyone.

It's designed to make civilians scared.

If Russia doesn't have ironclad control over their postwar borders in Ukraine and an EXTREMELY well run anti spy and anti partisan campaign, that's what will happen.

Well, yeah. Especially Urban combat. Better situation awareness and response time. Not to mention in case of BMP-2's and 3' better chances of surviving mines and types of IED's.

Same went for Afghanistan.

To be honesty in case of Urban combat i wouldn't even personally want to be inside a Puma or a T-15.


Also, ridding on top of BMP's even predates Afghan war. And i'd bet my ass Russian troops will be ridding on top of Kurgy also when it comes into service. Though no doubt officers will try to put a stop to that.

Riding on top of an IFV in an urban environment is a recipe to get shot, lit on fire or hit with a grenade/ATGM.

Russians ride on top of their IFVs because they have HORRIFIC mine and IED protection. All modern Western and some Eastern wheeled IFVs have blast attenuation built into the design. Things like seats that hang from the roof or hull sides, shock absorption systems in the seats and even in the floor, V hulls or double V hulls, things like that.

Western Tracked IFVs less so but improved seats are there as are a few other things.

The BMP-2 has a late 1970s design with rather thin armor as it HAS to be amphibious and it's engine isn't extremely powerful so add on armor isn't heavy.

Russia's issue is that their APCs and IFVs are mostly un-upgraded 1970s designs. They're very late on their next gen tracked and wheeled IFVs and APCs.

I remember there was a question of why tanks don't use EW to guard against drones. I said it was due to the fact drones move fast enough for it to not matter.
Here is a video of exactly this happening. Russian Lancet drone striking a Ukrainian T-72.
View attachment 5686323

It was sitting still. A mobile target turning your screen to snow makes things harder.

This is underrated in terms of protection. Mines have been a big but not super-discussed part of this war. I believe a lot of the tanks the US lost in the Middle east and Afghanistan were because of explosives underneath.

Driving over tens of even hundreds of pounds of TNT isn't going to be pleasant in anything .

Most anti tank mines blow off tracks. A tank without tracks is a bunker with good sights.

For wheeled vehicles an anti tank mines takes a wheel or maybe more of its a light vehicle. An 6x6 can handle 1-2 lost wheels. An 8x8 can handle 3 lost wheels. However the more wheels you lose the slower and more unstable you get.

Correct me if I'm wong, but doesn't the Russian tanks use something like a rotating strobe that sends very powerful interference in a sweep that's just long enough to confuse the drone?

That's Shorta and it's not very useful against any ATGM made after the 1980s. Even then there were countermeasures build into missiles guidance systems to make it less effective.