George RR Martin, his fanboys, and former fanbase

[Commissar Fuklaw]

The very strong rumors going around are that GRRM turned down a few ghostwriter offers to finish his series.

Quite a few number of prominent fantasy authors have contacted GRRM's publisher and even HBO directly. Floating their names to be the ghostwriter of the books should GRRM stop writing or croak in his sleep. Some have even gone public trying to put their names in discussion or put pressure on GRRM through his fans.

Like who?

 

[Absolutego]

Like who?

I vaguely recall R.A. Salvatore being rumored to have done it at one point, but that might just be people wishcasting it the same way they did with Sanderson until it got to the point that he basically had to say that GRRM's a nihilistic pervert and it would violate his Mormon values to write anything in the ASOIAF universe.

 

[Foltest]

I vaguely recall R.A. Salvatore being rumored to have done it at one point, but that might just be people wishcasting it the same way they did with Sanderson until it got to the point that he basically had to say that GRRM's a nihilistic pervert and it would violate his Mormon values to write anything in the ASOIAF universe.

Chad Sanderson would have finished GRRM books in two months.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

This thread gives me the most schadenfreude, emphasis on the shameful part. Yes, I know I should feel bad that a fantastic television show will never regain the fevered obsession it got 5 years ago, but seeing it fall from grace does amuse me. Like Lost all over again.

Well, at least I learned a few things about medieval society Kiwi posts.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

George R.R. Martin Says “Anti-Fans” Have Ruined the Discussions Around Films, TV Shows on Social Media​

The 'Game of Thrones' author wrote, "The era of rational discourse seems to have ended."

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/george-r-r-martin-anti-fans-ruined-films-tv-shows-social-media-1235814099/

https://archive.ph/88S9O

You know I’m curious how many words he’s typed on his not a blog, scripts, and his other books’ transcripts.

I vaguely recall R.A. Salvatore being rumored to have done it at one point, but that might just be people wishcasting it the same way they did with Sanderson until it got to the point that he basically had to say that GRRM's a nihilistic pervert and it would violate his Mormon values to write anything in the ASOIAF universe.

It must be a pride thing. Financially it’d make more sense to have just someone, anyone finish it for him. There’s no shame in having a ghost writer especially at his age.

I suspect that is why he also hates fan fiction. He doesn’t seem to care about random fan art pieces of his characters, but if someone wrote a better ending than he could it’d hurt his pride enormously.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

his story has become so complex and convoluted that two books won't be enough without some good old "kill your darlings" for 3/4 of his story lines.

Is it convoluted? There are a lot of characters but the plot is paper thin and most factions might as well not exist (not to mention most already got wiped out). Like that middle east area supposedly has a lot of intricacies but it all got devolved into ass mad slavers. I doubt George even remembers half thr subplot of the minor characters.

 

[TheHarbinger]

I know I should feel bad that a fantastic television show will never regain the fevered obsession it got 5 years ago, but seeing it fall from grace does amuse me. Like Lost all over again.

People discuss the writing and production of Game of Thrones more than the actual in universe story. It's never "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet because she was stressed". It's always "Dany forgot because the writers either had no talent or the production was rushed". We are at the point where the discussion around the franchise concerns its existence as a book series or television property and not an actual fantasy world. The actual fantasy world is dead and the real conversation spaces are centered around the creation of a failed series of works.

Lost, Mass Effect, Attack on Titan, and probably many other series are in that space as well. Where fans ignore the world and the characters and talk more about the writers and producers and the actors and why everything went so poorly. It's not about why the endings were even bad anymore. It's how the writers could make something that started amazingly...then fizzled out into nothing. Like a cautionary tale for future writers.

It must be a pride thing. Financially it’d make more sense to have just someone, anyone finish it for him.

He knows that anyone who writes him a new ending will criticize King Bran and the other end points of most characters if not outright change them.

 

[Stab You in the Back]

Is it convoluted? There are a lot of characters but the plot is paper thin and most factions might as well not exist (not to mention most already got wiped out). Like that middle east area supposedly has a lot of intricacies but it all got devolved into ass mad slavers. I doubt George even remembers half thr subplot of the minor characters.

The nice part about the book's narrative conceit is that he doesn't have to get into the weeds with a lot of details. In the first book he straight up bonks Tyrion on the head to avoid having to describe a battle. GRRM has the power to fudge a lot of plot points just by having characters be in a slightly different location from the action.

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

The actual fantasy world is dead and the real conversation spaces are centered around the creation of a failed series of works.

Lost, Mass Effect, Attack on Titan, and probably many other series are in that space as well. Where fans ignore the world and the characters and talk more about the writers and producers and the actors and why everything went so poorly. It's not about why the endings were even bad anymore. It's how the writers could make something that started amazingly...then fizzled out into nothing. Like a cautionary tale for future writers.

If the overwhelming majority of something's fandom, the people who on paper care the most about a given work, agree that the ending was a complete dumpsterfire it's probably the creator's fault and 99% of the time it's usually a failed promise by them. People remember beginnings and endings for a reason, the beginning has the promise, all the cool shit like ice zombies, titans, and freespace 2 but with blue tits, and the endings have the payoff or lack thereof. GoT's very first scene starts with the Whitewalkers/Others and their culmination is that someone who had nothing to to with their plot up until that point runs up behind their king and shanks him in the first battle after they crossed the wall. People probably would have bought Dany fogetting about the Iron Fleet due to stress or whatever else, but the writers have spent all goodwill by that point. People ignore world and characters in these scenarios because the culmination of their stories were completely soured in the end so instead they complain about the possible causes.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

GoT's very first scene starts with the Whitewalkers/Others and their culmination is that someone who had nothing to to with their plot up until that point runs up behind their king and shanks him in the first battle after they crossed the wall.

The explanation for this is in the name.

What's the show's name? Game of Thrones.

What's the books' name? A Song of Ice and Fire.

D&D never really cared for the fantasy aspects of the story, but rather the "game of thrones". I get why, it's because that allows the actors to shine more than if they're put to fight ice monsters, but the story is about that, the return of magic to Westeros and the good and bad consequences of it.

At least when they were following Martin's scenes it was good. The speech of Tyrion during his trial wasn't exactly as the book, but it was good and deserving of any award that was given to Dinklage. Those scenes give you awards, not zombies and dragons. Hence, why they tried to replicate that with the new characters, but failing. Martin can write, they couldn't. And at the end, the fantasy plot they forgot was so abandoned that they rushed it back in the story and everything fell apart.

 

[Blue Gem Kosher Queen]

In the first book he straight up bonks Tyrion on the head to avoid having to describe a battle.

If you are talking about that battle when Robb outsmarts the Lannisters, that’s a show thing and they bonked Tyrion because they didn’t have the budget for a battle. Tyrion was the POV character and he did well considering he had no support, he literally stabbed a horse.

 

[TheHarbinger]

D&D never really cared for the fantasy aspects of the story, but rather the "game of thrones".

This is just more coping from GRRM fans. Fact is that D&D knew the general endings of the show from the first season. Including stuff like more people dying in King's Landing from Cersei and Danaerys than from the Others. Or Bran being able to make it freely beyond the Wall, deep into the frozen northern area, and all the way back to King's Landing in his wheelchair to rule.

There are interviews from over a decade ago where D&D say that GRRM told them the endings for every single character. And it was mostly up to them how they got there. So GRRM told them Shireen would get burned by Stannis but not really where or why. Or that Dany would burn down nearly all of King's Landing in a fit of rage. That Bran would be king. That Jon would kill Dany and reject the throne.

D&D knew that the ending of the series had almost no plot points related to the Others. When GRRM was asked what he didn't like about the HBO adaptation the most he said it was removing stuff like Fake Aegon or Lady Stoneheart or Jaime and Brienne seeing the peasants suffer under the aftermath of wars. He basically never mention that the HBO show needed more White Walkers.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

There are interviews from over a decade ago where D&D say that GRRM told them the endings for every single character. And it was mostly up to them how they got their. So GRRM told them Shireen would get burned by Stannis but not really where or why. Or that Dany would burn down nearly all of King's Landing in a fit of rage. That Bran would be king. That Jon would kill Dany and reject the throne.

You're assuming they followed Martin's notes specifically, there is no way to know that.

Shireen gets burn, we don't know if Stannis does it. Or maybe Stannis gets someone burnt but it's not Shireen. They changed many characters someone else's plot, like Jorah having greyscale when we know he's not the one having it. Or how they killed Barristan when he's still alive. I think Martin also mentioned Dany and Tyrion meeting would be brief, which makes sense as Victarion is on her way with a fleet. Dany will burn something as she has dragons and will be part of a war, we don't know if it's KL. KL has been foreshadowed to blow up, it could be Cersei too as she's also being set up to become as crazy as Aerys. Ellaria being a vengeful person is not on the books so they either made that up or she's replacing someone who wants revenge but wasn't cast.

 

[TheHarbinger]

You're assuming they followed Martin's notes specifically, there is no way to know that.

We know which plot points were ignored, which were changed, and which were essentially the same in the grand sense. The only differences if GRRM stuck to his notes would be minor from the HBO adaptation in terms of what we saw play out on screen. Obviously stuff like Fake Aegon or Stoneheart will be different. But which characters survive the Others invading is the exactly what GRRM told them. In the overall plot the Others amount to nothing and almost no one dies according to GRRM.

You're acting like the storylines that D&D ignored are important. What difference do they make? Fake Aegon is going to die. Lady Stoneheart is going to die. Barristan is going to die and his queen Danaerys will be dead. Varys will be executed. Jon Connington is doomed. Jorah dead. All of the Iron Born will be dead except Asha. So Victarion and Eurone's stories are going nowhere. Their stories were just GRRM getting sidetracked and losing control over his writing.

Shireen gets burn, we don't know if Stannis does it. Or maybe Stannis gets someone burnt but it's not Shireen.

Shireen being burned comes directly from GRRM. D&D discussed this in interviews that it was one of the "three most shocking twists". Stannis burns her and loses his army in response and is abandoned and basically dies alone. Just as Ned Stark died a retard telling Cersei of his exact plans. Or how Jon will reject the throne. The standard "heroic" characters always have to subvert expectations in ASOIAF.

Or how they killed Barristan when he's still alive. I think Martin also mentioned Dany and Tyrion meeting would be brief, which makes sense as Victarion is on her way with a fleet. Dany will burn something as she has dragons and will be part of a war, we don't know if it's KL. KL has been foreshadowed to blow up, it could be Cersei too as she's also being set up to become as crazy as Aerys. Ellaria being a vengeful person is not on the books so they either made that up or she's replacing someone who wants revenge but wasn't cast.

You're acting like any of these matter. The Others will come. The minor characters will die off or be dead. GRRM's favorites like Tyrion, Bran, or Sam will get to live and rule. Everyone else was just there for their side quests that amounted to nothing. Even the Others were a side quest.

 

[Rome's rightful successor]

Winds of Winter may come out in 3 or 4 years (very optimistically speaking), but that will be the last one. Cannot see Martin finishing his magnus opum, his story has become so complex and convoluted that two books won't be enough without some good old "kill your darlings" for 3/4 of his story lines. I enjoyed the first three books very much, but #4 and #5 were such bores and I remember almost nothing from them.
For American Tolkien, I guess most fantasy readers would consider Brandon Sanderson as a contender for the title. Wrote a shitton of stuff and still not ready with no end in sight, although he already kinda peaked with his mistborn series.

Dude, it will never come out. Your best bet now is if GRRM dies and he gets a greedy estate that handpicks a successor even if it's the Winds of Winter has to start from scratch again.

 

[Blue Gem Kosher Queen]

You're acting like the storylines that D&D ignored are important.

They might not be central to what the show focused on but they were important. An argument you always see from book fans is that D&D screwed the show the moment they choose to fixate on their favourite characters and ignore everything else, which you can see from how empty the world feels in the later seasons.

• Fake Aegon simply existing in Westeros could tie both Cersei and Dany completely losing their minds. A Targaryen prince that makes his way to the KL supported by stormlanders sick of Lannister's bullshit potentially puts an end to petty succession wars, delegitimatizes Cersei and she decides to blow up the whole city. The reason FAegon is in Westeros is because Tyrion convinced JonCon to invade rather than meet with Dany in Essos, the original plan, because JonCon is the one with greyscale. If Dany arrives in KL and sees a guy that in all likelihood is a Blackfyre on her throne she likely loses her shit and melts everything.
• Lady Stoneheart largely only exists to carry Robb's will: justice for the Red Wedding and Jon's legitimacy. She likely hid it at Greywater Watch. A lot of the undercut storylines revolve around some party trying to restore the Starks through alliance.

> Jon: Robb's plan since he believed his siblings either dead or captured by Lannisters.
> Sansa: Forced marriage to Tyrion. Now a Littlefinger asset under a fake identity in the Vale and potentially marrying Harry the Heir, Sweetrobin's succesor once he kicks the bucket.
> Arya: Littlefinger hands Jeyne Pool to the Boltons to marry Ramsay. Theon frees her and gets them to Stannis who in turn uses Theon for intelligence.
> Rickon: Davos goes to Skagos as part of the Grand Northern Conspiracy to secure Northern support for Stannis.

• Barristan the Bold, one of the most botched characters from book to screen. Last time we saw him he was the one pacting alliances and overseeing a counteroffensive after the cuck slavers were throwing fucking corpses over Yunkai's walls with catapults. Dany is so done with Essos that probably she would be willing to jump Victarion to get the fuck out or get in with Varys' latest scheme. Jorah has just been freed from slavery and is still not over his crush on Dany so he will drag his new mercenary friends and Tyrion to her side because he has nothing else.
• The Greyjoys under Euron are heading into one of the four big battles for WoW, the Battle of Blood against the Redwynes and Hightowers, that looks to establish him as the new big baddie if he really can pull off half the shit he plans. A lot of also barely ellaborated plots in the show converge here: Sam and Sarella, Marwyn, Jaqen and whatever the Hightowers are up to with a side of the great maester conspiracy. Victarion was likely send to fetch Dany because Euron knows what he plans on doing, GRRM has meant to kill him off numerous times but he just doesn't.
• The Mannis has the backing of the Iron Bank, if he gets a Stark he will get the North on his side, Asha might jump to his side to oppose Euron and there's Aurane Waters who swindled Cersei of an entire fleet and likely will make his way to meet him. He practically solved the wildling issue by creating a new house out of the one good Karstark left. If Patchface's prophecy at Hardhome is to be belived we might see the Boltons get fucking wiped off the face of the Earth with the help of the mountain clans and maybe even the Westerlings, a fucking 180 to the show that already made Ramsay way more important than he originally was.

Shireen being burned comes directly from GRRM. D&D discussed this in interviews that it was one of the "three most shocking twists". Stannis burns her and loses his army in response and is abandoned and basically dies alone.

The reveal of that twist is always really, really vague. It is said Shireen will be sacrificied, not that Stannis will do it or at least willingly. Most fans believe that Melissandre will sacrifice Shireen on her own to resurrect Jon since he's still dead in the books. Stannis loves his daughter:

you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne, Or die in the attempt.

Shireen will likely be killed by her greyscale and her friend Patchface likely plays a role in it alongside the Ironborn religion of the Drowned God. Patchface's profecies are one of the biggest loses for the show because he literally spells what's going to happen.

Tons of cool shit that show watchers never got to see, yeah no?

 

[TheHarbinger]

Fake Aegon simply existing in Westeros could tie both Cersei and Dany completely losing their minds.

Only Danaerys really loses her mind on the show. Cersei just dies in the rubble and seems to take a big step back when she sees zombies, dragons, and her children are all dead. Danaerys is so mental that Jon flat out kills her. Leaks on the HBO set show that they had it shot two ways including once where Danaerys was pregnant but they wimped out and didn't want to alienate fans of the show from re-watching. Cersei had a miscarriage scene that was deleted as well. Both will be in the books.

I doubt that Cersei loses her mind in the books. She probably becomes numb from the miscarriage. Why does Fake Aegon need to be a character at all if the end result is the exact same without him? Danaerys goes nuts from losing a dragon. Doesn't matter who she loses it to. And Cersei's ending will likely be the show ending in that she reunites with Jaime and dies in rubble or wildfire exploding. The whole prophecy of someone having their hands around her will be misinterpreted. Turns out it was just Jaime holding her in his arms as the Red Keep buries them. Typical GRRM subverting expectations.

Lady Stoneheart largely only exists to carry Robb's will: justice for the Red Wedding and Jon's legitimacy

Howland Reed carries Jon's legitimacy in the books not Catelyn. He has it written on a scroll that will be delivered to the Night's Watch. We know that Alister Thorne was a huge Targ loyalist and it is being foreshadowed that he will be a follower of revived Jon Snow once he knows that he is Rhaegar's son.

The reveal of that twist is always really, really vague. It is said Shireen will be sacrificied, not that Stannis will do it or at least willingly.

It's literally in writing in multiple interviews and an entire book on GRRM that Stannis sacrifices his own daughter. GRRM's exact quote is:

"It wasn’t easy for me. I didn’t want to give away my books. It’s not easy to talk about the end of my books. Every character has a different end. I told them who would be on the Iron Throne, and I told them some big twists like Hodor and “hold the door,” and Stannis’s decision to burn his daughter".

Stannis burns his own daughter. I'm not even a big ASOIAF fan and I can remember this stuff. You just need to accept that the HBO ending is GRRM's ending at nearly all levels. And that Fake Aegon and Stoneheart and Connington mattered so little in the end that D&D didn't even bother. Just like they barely bothered with the Others because GRRM told them that they would be dead in mere chapters in one battle. The HBO show is a faithful adaptation of the source material. It's not good because GRRM is not really a great writer.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Lady Stoneheart largely only exists to carry Robb's will: justice for the Red Wedding and Jon's legitimacy. She likely hid it at Greywater Watch. A lot of the undercut storylines revolve around some party trying to restore the Starks through alliance.

The whole North plot is based on the Northerners being mad at the Lannisters for the Red Wedding. They replaced the whole storyline with Arya being mad. The whole "Northern Conspiracy" is a way more intricate plot.

Shireen will likely be killed by her greyscale

More likely than being killed by Melissandre. I dont' see Mel killing the King's daughter, but the Wildings are afraid of her because of greyscale.

Aurane Waters who swindled Cersei of an entire fleet and likely will make his way to meet him.

Pity we never saw Auriane being cast.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

I doubt that Cersei loses her mind in the books.

She already lost her mind in the books, though. The Walk of Shame is what's gonna make her go even deeper about it. Aerys didn't start to burn people in day one, but he went there at the end, and that's where Cersei's going too.

-She's becoming extremely paranoid and thinks everybody's after her.
-Jaime noticed her fascination with fire when they burn down the Tower of the Hand during Tommen's wedding. He felt Aerys was the same. He tells her she reminds him of Aerys.
-Both have mentioned they don't like the Red Keep and want to move it to another place and built a much better castle made (I think?) of gold.

Martin's not putting these details for no reason, this is a set up for Cersei to go as mad as Aerys and having Jaime killing her like he killed Aerys.

Dany burning KL with the bells doesn't make sense either when you have Griff dreaming every night with the damn bells and saying this time he won't spare people and will burn a city if he must.

What's the evidence for Dany going mad? That she burns people? No shit, what's she supposed to do with those dragons? Every single character would do exactly the same things she did if they had dragons. A lot of other characters have done similar things without dragons and people aren't going around saying they're mad. Aegon I told people to surrender otherwise he would fry them all and he did so when they refused to surrender. He was never called mad.

 

[TheHarbinger]

Martin's not putting these details for no reason.

What? Endless details for no reason is literally GRRM's entire style. Pages of descriptions of food and cocks and cunts. Sex scenes and defecating scenes and vomiting and urinating. That go nowhere. You think GRRM doesn't just write his creepy porn scenes for anyone but himself? He has Jon's entire storyline as being heir to the throne lead to him rejecting it. It's all about misdirection and subverting expectations with GRRM. "Hey remember Jon's parentage.....well Bran had a better story.....see I'm smarter than you and a better writer than Tolkien....now back to cocks and food platters".

Expecting him to have payoff for anything is setting yourself up for major disappointment again with the books just like the show. He is literally going to build Stannis up to kill his daughter and then be unceremoniously killed off and then written out of history. It's the inverse of Denethor and Faramir basically which is another thing GRRM loves to do. Just copy something from Tolkien and invert or change it then shit all over Tolkien in interviews for his fans to cling to like he is a genius.

Danaerys burning King's Landing is his version of the Scouring of the Shire. Almost everyone predicted this on places like Westeros forums or Tower of the Hand before the HBO show was even airing.

What's the evidence for Dany going mad?

Other than GRRM and D&D saying it in interviews. And even Emilia Clarke the actress saying it. You don't need more than that.