Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Wodanaz said:
So. did Poles actually collaborate with Nazis? Treat me like I'm retarded and don't know anything. It was pretty funny when Putin just dropped that one.
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Not as a whole, but there were plenty who did. My personal favorite is that Maximilian Kolbe, a Romanist saint who is venerated for having allegedly been martyred among the Six Gorillion, was probably a collaborator. He ministered to German troops, was a member of the ONR, and helped promulgate a Polish translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. His martyrdom is fake, too. Camp records show that at the time he was allegedly locked in a starvation cell (because why just shoot prisoners when you can invest exponentially more resources and time in starving them to death) he was undergoing treatment for his tuberculosis in the camp hospital.
 
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Fatniggo1488 said:
Honestly the US is likely the most historically illiterate country in the world.
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This is by design of course. One side says all past history is rayciss and the other side says book learnin’ is for fags. Both sides have a vested interest in ensuring people are retarded enough to not make mental connections for themselves, it must be administered by approved media outlets. Getting anything on the written record is considered a liability for the current power system in the west.
 
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@Romeo , I wonder if the propensity of some of our Russkie frens here to try to blame anyone but the Bolsheviks and their malignant incompetence for the 1930's famine would count as an example of the "paradox" you were describing, where the Soviet Union is still venerated as part of the Russian national identity, even though by all metrics taken by people on the outside looking in it was intrinsically hostile to Russian national identity.
 
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make_it_so said:
@Romeo , I wonder if the propensity of some of our Russkie frens here to try to blame anyone but the Bolsheviks and their malignant incompetence for the 1930's famine would count as an example of the "paradox" you were describing,
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Nobody denies the maligant incompetence of the Bolsheviks. We are denying the Ukrainian claims that the consequences were 1) engineered on purpose and 2) aimed specifically at their country, because "holodomor" was a fuck-up of massive proportions that depopulated entire areas both inside and outside Ukraine, then blamed on the already eliminated kulaks who at that point were told to face the wall a long time ago.

During the revolution the intelligentsia (teachers, doctors and academics) gladly welcomed the change because they spent decades lobbying for reforms in the tsarist government and thought the Bolsheviks would usher in a new and better world for everyone. I read a lot of memoirs from that time and the attitude of those people is both naive and :optimistic: as fuck. They Pikachu faced hard when the actual power ended up in the hands of soldiers, military commisars and to a lesser extent illiterate factory workers who did not give a fuck about the democratic values of the soft-handed intelligentsia and solved problems with ruthlessness and efficiency of a steam hammer, and counted people as problems... Especially smart people. A yesterday''s seaman from the Aurora, coal stoker from St. Pete's factory and typesetter from Moscow newspaper knew fuck all about how you run an economy during a civil war or immediately after.

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The ruthlessness of the revolutionaries was unfathomable to their contemporaries. When the "bestial and inhumane" Tsarist regime would condemn a revolutionary, he was exiled to Siberia. Not to a labor camp to die from malnutrition and tuberculosis but to a rustic village with room and board covered by the state where said revolutionaries spent a few years penning their manifestos before coming back good as new, except fatter and healthier. Compare it to the troikas of the ЧК, where three people were chosen to be the judge, jury and executioner and allowed to shoot "enemies of the people" on the spot, Warhammer Fantasy witch hunter style.

Things somewhat calmed down by the time Stalin came into power because they ran out of enemies of the people to shoot. That's when the actual witch hunts began, but that is a story for another day which is not related to Holodomor.
 
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Alabama Gamer said:
Not as a whole, but there were plenty who did. My personal favorite is that Maximilian Kolbe, a Romanist saint who is venerated for having allegedly been martyred among the Six Gorillion, was probably a collaborator. He ministered to German troops, was a member of the ONR, and helped promulgate a Polish translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. His martyrdom is fake, too. Camp records show that at the time he was allegedly locked in a starvation cell (because why just shoot prisoners when you can invest exponentially more resources and time in starving them to death) he was undergoing treatment for his tuberculosis in the camp hospital.
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The Latin Church has a well known history of Canonizing people who maybe shouldn't have been so I'm not surprised something like this happened.
 
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About the interview, mainly for US viewers and albeit long format re history segment, old news to many in Europe but in terms of Poland and Hitler working together pre 1941, has stirred up some salt about Ribbentrop Molotov treaty, though thought this was more a prelude to setting up the segment about explaining the Bandera era and in particular highlighted Poles hate him even today and how the Border people still promotes this identity.

Any updates on the frontlines?

As for comment by the use of new tech/modern weapons, wonder if it's about trying to push the western "mercs" to target inside Russia with long range weapons as an attempt to force escalation, draw in official Nato boots on the ground?
 
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dustbuster said:
rt of the view of international politics that Putin subscribes to. This kind of historical analysis would not be out of place in the 19th century. Putin basically subscribes to a 19th century viewpoint of international law. It also fits with Putin's very bureaucratic nature.
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Napoleon III said:
Quite Frankly I don't think the interview is very good. I blame Putin for this he gave too broad of a view and didn't focus on any specifics that would communicated information more clearly. He should have mentioned for example that the Nationalist/Nazi units were the ones that burned people alive and were essential to the Maiden coup.

Putin also has the problem of explaining things too much. He wants to communicate everything and so he says everything that is connected with the topic in his mind.

I know about this problem because I do it too. He should be more brief and give clear and striking examples like the Nazi units burning people alive.
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Quotes are borked.

Tl,dr, he is acting like a politician would in the old times.

He cites facts but tries to do so in a manner that won't upset Russia boomers.

This is a public interview that won't sway the west, but he has to keep it in line for his own russian audience.
 
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