George RR Martin, his fanboys, and former fanbase

Glad to see other shitting on his world building.
I still like the books (dunk and Egg ftw) but his world make such little sense.
Take for example how badly the peasants are being treated with nobels raping and such.
In real medieval time , the peasants would leave rebel way more often and fucking leave.
it's amazing how literal medieval fanfiction shit like prima nocta made it into the setting
nice realism you got there
 
Glad to see other shitting on his world building.
I still like the books (dunk and Egg ftw) but his world make such little sense.
Take for example how badly the peasants are being treated with nobels raping and such.
In real medieval time , the peasants would leave rebel way more often and fucking leave.
It's war time. A lot of lords are against it, harshly: Jaime, Griff, and Sam's dad come to mind.
 
It's war time. A lot of lords are against it, harshly: Jaime, Griff, and Sam's dad come to mind.
Jaime literally causes the entire War of the Five Kings. He puts his son on the throne and with Cersei conspired to kill Robert. He throws Bran out of the tower and is clearly one of the most immoral people in the series. Connington is bringing a plague of greyscale into Westeros. Who knows how much damage this might lead to in the future. They are some of the most selfish characters in the entire story.
 
I've always love-hated the evil mentor/dark father trope or whatever you want to call it because most stories tell it poorly, making the the relationship between the naive hero and their bad influence obviously malign and destructive but the way GRRM is doing it works pretty well. Giving Melisandre a sympathetic POV chapter, so we know she at least thinks she's the good guy, making the Three Eyed Raven the McGuffin in a long and difficult quest which basically defined Bran's story, showing how much benefit and actualization Arya and Sansa get from their dark fathers who really do want them to do well and be successful (in support of the DF's agenda of course), it's a much fresher and more engaging version of the tale than the way it's usually told. Now when the time comes for the hero to choose good vs evil there will actually be something at stake and losing that relationship will genuinely hurt and cost them. It's nice to see Good doesn't necessarily equal beneficial and an obvious no brainer for a change.

In real medieval time , the peasants would leave rebel way more often and fucking leave.
Isn't that what the Sparrows and Brotherhood Without Banners represent?
 
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Giving Melisandre a sympathetic POV chapter, so we know she at least thinks she's the good guy.
It's not really a sympathetic portrayal though. She's shown as a con artist. Who performs false miracles with tricks up her sleeves. It actually proved that she was performing false miracles in previous chapters and and that she really is clueless. She tells Stannis that throwing the leeches in the fire will kill the false kings but she's already seen their deaths in her fires and is just building trust with Stannis by fooling him. She knows that those kings are going to die but tells Stannis that it is the royal blood in the leeches. She lies to convince Stannis to burn one of Robert's children alive.

She uses obviously evil magic to kill Renly as well. She uses some type of glamor pendant to disguise her appearance. She uses the same power to change images to make Rattleshirt look like Mance and he is burned alive. Her character is written so inconsistently that the fan speculation about her is all over the place.
Now when the time comes for the hero to choose good vs evil there will actually be something at stake and losing that relationship will genuinely hurt and cost them.
This is why the Others are such a jarring piece of the ASOIAF series. That they represent a pure evil or final boss in a world where there have been almost zero morally pure characters. Essentially whitewashing the sin of the past and forcing everyone to join together to fight the big threat. You can just tell that the HBO team hated the White Walker aspect and just wanted to focus on the Iron Throne. There existence turns everyone into a good guy at least temporarily.
 
Her character is written so inconsistently that the fan speculation about her is all over the place.
She's a self-righteous villain with good intentions who thinks the ends justify the means and she (initially) helps rather than hinders the hero.
 
Personally I think that Martin’s sudden inability to finish Winds for over a decade is less from frustration with the show, edgy fan reviews, the Ukraine war, or the backlash against Season 8’s ending.

And more simply due to losing his assistant Ty Frank, who left Martin’s employ in 2010 to go write The Expanse books with his writing partner, finishing the series before Martin finished another book.

It’s pretty obvious from Frank’s old interviews that he was something of a guiding hand to keep Martin actually focused on writing instead of endlessly rewriting. He’s probably responsible for Feast/Dance getting published at all.

"[Martin] is much more of a sit down at the keyboard, wait for the muse to strike, and bang out whatever chapter is sort of banging around in your head at that time. That works for him; he’s able to produce work, so more power to him, but that just seems like a really inefficient way to get a story out, from my perspective. For me as a writer, I could not do that. I have to know where I am going, and I have to know what the next chapters are about so I can start layering and foreshadowing and all the other stuff that you want to do.
He’s much more comfortable rewriting chapters over and over and over and over again than I am."
 
Howland Reed carries Jon's legitimacy in the books not Catelyn.
And the will either got there by Galbart Glover or Maege Mormont. Stoneheart probably has the original will in some rathole near Seven Streams alongside Robb's crown, ergo, she does carry Robb's will. But how much that sits with you depends on how much credit you give to the idea Stoneheart is capable of more thought than just spam killing Freys.
Stannis burns his own daughter.
You know what, I'm going to concede here. I still think is stupid as fuck and is GURM realizing he has too many plot-threads going on by having too many characters live so he needs a shocking death. It barely makes any sense because all the redditors saying that is spelled out claim that Stannis is wholly behind the Azor Ahai shit tend to forget he uses the faith as pragmatically as any politician in the story, so he isn't just going to sacrifice his won daughter because the red lady that rarely gets predictions right told him. It would make more sense that Shireen's greyscale fully comes back and starts an epidemic or she gets turned into an Other as a reason why the rigid, hard-ass bald emo decides to burn her and he succumbs to his wrath, losing his mind just when the Targs come back.
I don't have a ton of respect for George but it definitely isn't going to be in a battle he is waging against an army of potential allies led by retard and a 9 year old boy that is pretty much telegraphed he will win by using a fucking night lamp.

For all this talk about what was superfluous to the story we tend to forget that D&D had enough of an obsession with Brian Peppers' daughter that they renamed Theon's sister, so you can't tell me that what they made to replace storylines was any better. The Dany and Dorne plots in the show are very empty because the cut a lot for instance. And then there's what they did with the broken man speech, in which they got the worst of both worlds.
-Victarion going to Dany.
-Aegon invading Westeros
-Arianne and the Snakes doing whatever.
And turns out that Quentyn might still be alive so we all owe Preston Jacobs an apology.
The others are supposedly meant to get more development in Winds-and Martin has alluded to them being more ice fae or what not as opposed to a malfunctioning magic bioweapon, like the show decided.

Problem is-the space to develop the Others is a problem. Bran has gotten less and less POVs.

The Others are also a problem for other narrative reasons.

Develop them too much-takes away from other plots, and their hanging menace over Westeros is removed, keep them as just a frozen evil army-and Martin falls to his own criticism about evil dark lords and generic fantasy bad guys.

So its a dilemma. Especially with the whole "song of ice and fire" and "last hero" tying in the Others to Dany and maybe dragons in some sort of pact or mystic balance.
You just made realize that maybe after a gay ass battle where a lot of the fan favourites die, Bran will just mental link with the Night King and they will rule together the whole continent in a tryhard metaphor for the War of the Roses.
Glad to see other shitting on his world building.
I still like the books (dunk and Egg ftw) but his world make such little sense.
Take for example how badly the peasants are being treated with nobels raping and such.
In real medieval time , the peasants would leave rebel way more often and fucking leave.
This right here is the best criticism of George you can make. For all the claims this is "realistic" there are a shit ton of houses that shouldn't be allowed to exist based on how much shit they stir.
 
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Stannis’ entire arc is about hard moral choices, “what is one boy measured against a kingdom”. Shireen has nightmares about stone dragons waking up and attacking her.

I absolutely totally believe Shireen will die in the flames. And no it won’t be Mel or Selyse doing it-it will be Stannis at the end of Winds.

(Likely as a last ditch effort when the Wall falls).

It will be the culmination of Stannis’ entire story.
 
Stannis’ entire arc is about hard moral choices, “what is one boy measured against a kingdom”.
Stannis's arc is also about right to rule and claims of succession. As he believes he has the strongest claim to the Iron Throne not by force but by rights. And almost all of his choices are dictated by how he thinks people will perceive his previous actions after he takes the Iron Throne. Like him riding to the Wall was about him solidifying his position in the North so that when he ascends to the Iron Throne he is fully backed and supported. Davos understands that but Melisandre is obsessed with him being a godly warrior.

Also the line about "one bastard boy measured against a kingdom" is not just about Edric. It's about Renly. And he kills Renly to secure his kingdom. He probably would have burned Edric Storm alive if not for Davos. Which is more foreshadowing his sacrifice of Shireen. GRRM loves building up rulers to make them act retarded and have fits of madness or extreme stupidity. Like Ned Stark informing the Lannisters he wants to hang them all but not arresting them. Dany burning down King's Landing and killing everyone. And likely Stannis burning his daughter alive for almost no reason whatsoever both in the show and the books.
I absolutely totally believe Shireen will die in the flames. And no it won’t be Mel or Selyse doing it-it will be Stannis at the end of Winds.

(Likely as a last ditch effort when the Wall falls).
Maybe. But more likely it will be GRRM's dumb 'grim dark' fantasy level writing. Where a once heroic and worthy protagonist loses his or her mind and acts like a total maniac and does something to shock the audience. GRRM loves stupid twists that are ultra grim dark edgy like the Tysha gang rape or the Mountain raping Elia with her infant's smashed bones and guts all over her. Or the Red Wedding.

Stannis will burn Shireen for no discernible reason like Robb betraying the Freys or Ned blabbing to Cersei.
 
Those who doubt that Stannis burning Shireen came right from under Martin's pen do not understand Martin. Or why he's clearly not intererested in finishing the books.

See, Stannis was once, back in Book 1, perceived by someone as a man who has principles. From that exact moment, he was doomed to be revealed as a filthy hypocrite, to fail and die in the most pathetic fashion imaginable. Well, the fact that he was a white heterosexual man without disabilities, a lawfully sired son of his father, whose immediate family line involved no incest, also played a role. But the moment of being perceived as a man with actual morals sealed his doom. Martin hates characters like with burning passion! And this doesn't just mean that they are going to die. This means he's going to write them as two-faced bastards who generally practice the direct opposite of what they preach.

With Ned Stark it was at least subtle. You could plausibly explain away his selective application of principles (on which the book explicitly calls him out through Varys) and "do-whatever-just-leave-me-in-peace" attitude towards his children and other people, except Robert, through cirtumstances.

With Robb it was less subtle, but not spelled out in plain words. Yes, Robb almost certainly was a selfish shithead, who thought with his dick, and then decided to let Edmure take the fall for it, but the narrative leaves room for doubt.

But with Stannis everything is spelled in plain words. Stannis was written as both an incarnation of hypocritical selfishness and a chud virgin from the start. In his very first appearance Stannis himself exlplains quite clearly that he's a bitter loser, who thinks that the universe owes him, and who does not care for men, gods or beasts, beyond their immediate practical usefulness to him.

The fact that despite this so many readers have latched onto Stannis even before the show came out and removed some of his unsympathetic moments, must exasperate Martin very much. And here's the root of Martin's writing block. Perhaps not the only one, but certainly a crucial one. His personal urges regarding what to do with characters and plotlines and his audience's expectations are clearly incompatible. (And now he certainly knows it.)

And well, even putting aside what actually gives Martin a boner (only metaphorical, hopefully), there is the fact that Stannis must be defeated and die for the plot. Most importantly, his mere existence obstructs Jon's plotline. If Stannis, already aware of the threat from behind the Wall, manages to beat Boltons and unite the North, that basically leaves Martin with the following options:

(1) Write Jon as a completely unironic played-straight Messiah back from the dead, who can top this feat by uniting all of Westeros against the Others by sheer charisma or something. If you think Martin would or can write this, you haven't been paying attention.
(2)Render Jon's entire storyline a pointless waste of pages.

And here we come to an objective problem facing Martin, beyond the above-mentioned writer's block. There is so much setup, that satisfactory payoff is not possible anymore, even if he decides to do his best at writing what the fans want. In this particular case either Stannis or Jon must be unceremoniously thrown into a dumpster. And everything we know about Martin's writings points to Stannis as one going to the chopping block.

The same goes for Westeros mainlaind storylines. Martin is NOT going to write Dany as a straight-up savior coming to unite the land that tore itself to pieces in a five-way war between the current pretenders, and he's NOT going to just dump Lannisters, on whom he spent so many chapters, in favor of any of the total newcomers. He has a semi-logical way to resolve that mess, and we have seen it in the show - Cersei is going to miraculously regain power and team up with Euron and shit on everyone else, including False Aegon, Tyrells, Dorne, sparrows, etc. But of course people hated it, just like they hated Stannis getting swept out of the way. So now Martin is stuck between polishing a turd and trying in vain to come up with a different resolution that would awe everyone.
 
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Isn't that what the Sparrows and Brotherhood Without Banners reprepresent
Yes to the Brotherhood Without Banners, kinda sorta with the Sparrows. Think more cultic sect of the main church who will hurt or kill anyone for their church. A basic bitch inquisition if you will, made up of mostly citizens but some higher born too.
 
(1) Write Jon as a completely unironic played-straight Messiah back from the dead, who can top this feat by uniting all of Westeros against the Others by sheer charisma or something. If you think Martin would or can write this, you haven't been paying attention.
(2)Render Jon's entire storyline a pointless waste of pages.
At this point Martin has spent so long building up characters to subvert expectations that no one expects Jon to just be a good man that is willing to stand for what’s right even if inconvenient to him. It would unironically be more subversive if Jon stayed dead at this point, Stannis dies a deeply flawed hero and Targs and Blackfyres and Starks and Others in one side unite as two individual families that eventually fuse. It really was a Song of Ice and Fire all along.
If he wants to subvert expectations that badly he should make Theon Azor Ahai and Quentyn ends up becoming the new Littlefinger.
 
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I think the readers are supposed to like Stannis-at least Stannis post ASOS. He’s called “the king who cared” after all(albeit I never felt this designation was entirely fair-Tommen is a child and the Lannister-Tyrell regime couldn’t help the Wall if it wanted too, neither could the Ironborn).

Stannis demonstrates a greater degree of flexibility in Dance, he even gets laid with Melisandre.

I think readers like the Stannis who is respectful of northern houses and working to build alliances, who says he isn’t Robert, who would have smashed down the gates of winter fell and crushed the Boltons with his war hammer, but he’s going to try anyway, who tells Justin Massey to put Shireen on the throne should he die(he sees her as heir, greyscale or not).

That Stannis-the Stannis that is freezing by a frozen lake and tells the R’hllor worshipers to “pray harder”.

At the same time, Stannis is clearly supposed to be an illusion, a faint, a hollow fake. We see this with the whole sword vision-basically it gives off no heat or shadow(I forget the exact passage).

And what will probably happen is he’ll have his moment of triumph, he’ll defeat the Boltons,

Then he’ll hear about Robb’s will and the survival of Rickon-if not Jon, the northmen that cheer him will abandon him.

So he’ll make one last gambit-returning to the wall, to sacrifice Shireen.

In short-he’s full of fury, but he ultimately signifies nothing. He’ll die and his line will end, having left no real impact, being little more than warm up for Jon and Dany(if not Bran, who might intervene before Theon is executed).
 
Yes to the Brotherhood Without Banners, kinda sorta with the Sparrows. Think more cultic sect of the main church who will hurt or kill anyone for their church. A basic bitch inquisition if you will, made up of mostly citizens but some higher born too.

Isn't that what the Sparrows and Brotherhood Without Banners represent?
The Sparrows are religious/populist response to the misrule of the Baratheon/Lannister alliance controlling the Iron Throne, along with the excesses and atrocities of the War of the Five Kings, and the Crown's utter indifference to the destruction of the Riverlands. Instead of rebuilding, they are throwing lavish weddings, funerals, and building warships.

What's funny is that the Sparrows cannot be considered a 'rebellion' as none of them took up arms against the crown in any significant way; instead, they chose civil disobedience and Cersei, being as short-sighted as she is, thought that instead of paying the Faith what they were owed, it was better to legitimize them as a military/law enforcement/judicial power instead merely a spiritual one. She then compounded this stupidity by giving them authority over the crown for no better reason than to PWN Margaery (an assassin would have been cheaper and less dangerous).

At the end of AFFC, she ends up thoroughly hoist by her own petard, the Faith Militant have enough forces inside of King's Landing to make life very difficult for anyone who wanted to eject them from the city (unless GRRM decides to bless Cersei's LOL WILDFIRE gambit).

The Brotherhood is a guerrilla army on its way to becoming an outright criminal gang/cult under the influence of Lady Stoneheart (kill/rob Freys and Lannisters).
 
Frankly I think the mother was always way more likely to burn Shireen than Stannis ever was, the fact that D&D twisted it around in the show and made her the one that wants to stop it, after all her zealous lord of the light bullshit and fetus jar room was ridiculous. Didn't she near-loathe Shireen in the books?
 
Didn't she near-loathe Shireen in the books?
You may be mixing her up with Val, Mance Rayder's sister-in-law, who thought Shireen should be killed because she had grayscale as an infant.

Melisandre was pretty insistent on killing Edric Storm, Robert's only highborn bastard child.
 
“the king who cared”
> Naturally comes to the conclusion that to earn the throne he has to save the kingdom.
> Says he doesn't want the crown but rather is his duty.
> Only major player in the story that is playing the long game.

Reasons people likes the Mannis:
> See above
> Cucked by destiny and his own family out of the family seat even though he defended it during Roberts rebellion.
> Greatest living general in Westeros.
> Started the investigation that found Cerseis kids were bastards.
> Even though he doesn't like them he respects the Starks. You could very much argue he picks up the same role as Ned without being a political idiot.
> Pragmatic and cool headed, specially when compared with every other major character.
> He does love his daughter, so GURM is a hack.
> If you dislike the show, he probably is your favourite character.
 
See, Stannis was once, back in Book 1, perceived by someone as a man who has principles. From that exact moment, he was doomed to be revealed as a filthy hypocrite, to fail and die in the most pathetic fashion imaginable. Well, the fact that he was a white heterosexual man without disabilities, a lawfully sired son of his father, whose immediate family line involved no incest, also played a role. But the moment of being perceived as a man with actual morals sealed his doom. Martin hates characters like with burning passion! And this doesn't just mean that they are going to die. This means he's going to write them as two-faced bastards who generally practice the direct opposite of what they preach.
On one hand I remember Stannis as having principles. On the other hand I do get the Rorschach from Watchmen vibes that the author doesn't want to set him as a good example but he fits the criteria for readers due to not being as bad as everyone else. On the other other hand, he is a character that was doomed for failure from day 1, and while he "technically" deserves the iron throne, he is pretty old, has no viable heirs and not very popular, raising the question of what's even the fucking point of him entering the war. While he has a point he comes off as whiny, and he loses in some bullshit deus ex machina.
 
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