Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Fapcop said:
As for Moscow as a target in Barbarossa, it wasn’t just because of political reasons.

Moscow was important because it was the central hub of all transportation and railways. Capture Moscow and it doesn’t matter how many divisions you have in Siberia. You’ll never get them to the front.
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Ofc Moscow was important for Russia. But the Baku oilfields where also important for Russia and also critically important for the Germans.
Spreading out the offensive towards 3 different objectives (Leningrad, Moscow and Ukraine/Baku) was unwise as it ultimately meant that no objective was sized besides that of the fertile Ukrainian fields.

Even if Moscow fell, they could still ship in troops from Siberia. What becomes harder is to ship them towards the southern and northern part of the front.
 
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Meh123 said:
Highly doubt it. These things do not develop (usually) overnight. This collapse was brewing for at least a month now.
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but did it have a hand in making the collapse have a higher death toll then was neccessary?
 
God of Nothing said:
Was that second one really necessary? I know he was still moving and it's debatably a mercy but damn.
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I’d consider it a mercy kill. Like… Better to get atomized than bleed to death in agonizing pain.

I recall one Russian drone operator who had a particular moral code.

He wouldn’t drone people taking a shit. (Because obviously you see people doing that on a regular basis, when you watch trenches all day long.)

Killing some one with his pants down, was just a step too far.
 
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Useful_Mistake said:
Russia is already capitalising on the fall
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There has been chatter about about taking Chasov Yar soon and establishing a cauldron around Toretsk using the fall of Avdeevka as a good opportunity to attack the Ukrainian flank. I don't believe it though. The Russians only advanced so quickly on the Chasov Yar/Bakhmut axis recently because Ukraine had to pull troops from there to reinforce Avdeevka but, Ukraine probably has to send troops to stabilize the lines around Avdeevka and can't send more to Chasov so it is not impossible.
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The other big news is around Robotyne with the new advances being in the dark red. Russia is likely to advance into the edge of Robotyne but pressure there and then cut the road out and force Ukraine to run the gauntlet.
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God of Nothing said:
Was that second one really necessary? I know he was still moving and it's debatably a mercy but damn.
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Yes absolutely. You can't even be entirely sure he was hit the first time. The blast radius can be deceptively small on those drone grenades.
Betonhaus said:
I want to ask. Is there potentially any sort of connection between Zelensky sacking his previous general (for the stated reason that he planned to evacuate Adviika) and replacing several military heads in positions of tacticians and logistics management, and Adviika falling just a few days later?
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Not really Avdeevka was going to fall sooner or later. Thought maybe it fell a little bit earlier.
 
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Uncle Holter said:
Even if Moscow fell, they could still ship in troops from Siberia. What becomes harder is to ship them towards the southern and northern part of the front.
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How to supply them though. Or deliver fuel?

Russian railway lines went north from Caucasus to Moscow and only there go east.

Extremist Frank said:
Ukraine has allegedly deployed its M1 Abrams to the area directly west of Avdeevka to try and stop the Russians, who have resumed pushing westward. Impossible to tell whether this is legit given the lack of date / location on the vid, so take it with a grain of salt, but it wouldn't be that surprising given the lack of defensive lines west of Avdeevka and the amount of troops and resources they've just lost there.
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Send an 80T tank out in those conditions, with an turbine engine that sucks down hundreds of liters a fuel every few hours, seems like a really retarded move.

I’d guess we’ll see some of them abandoned soon enough, either because Lancet damage, or because it gets stuck or runs out of fuel.
 
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Betonhaus said:
I want to ask. Is there potentially any sort of connection between Zelensky sacking his previous general (for the stated reason that he planned to evacuate Adviika) and replacing several military heads in positions of tacticians and logistics management, and Adviika falling just a few days later?
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I don't think that matters. It's re-ranging deck chairs on the Titanic at this point.

They killed tons of their men on lost causes like Bakhmut the "counter offensive". Countless waves wasted all for PR reasons. Then you had that thing happen with Our Greatest Ally which is much higher on the gibs totem pole then Ukraine.
Now they are running out of men at the same time Russia is bulking up their numbers with recruits coming out of training.


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Uncle Holter said:
Ofc, getting encircled in never good and was never part of the plan, hence why the no-retreat orders where issued in order to prevent encirclements.
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No-retreat orders don't prevent encirclements. They cause them. The way to prevent an encirclement is to retreat out of the pocket before it closes, or have other forces keep the pocket from closing. This is why the only person in German high command who thought it was a good idea was the one guy with zero tactical command experience, Adolf Hitler, and the only people who today argue that it was somehow a good idea are Nazis. Moreover, many of his "strong points" were defensively awful positions. 10,000 men were sacrificed at Ternopol, an utterly worthless position, for nothing. Those 10,000 could have been drawn back and deployed somewhere not retarded, and instead, they were all lost. You only need to look at what happened just now at Adveeka to see what a great idea no-retreat orders are.

And if, as you argue, Hitler really was the greatest tactical and strategic genius ever, and nothing anyone else could have done could have changed the outcome, then you forgot there was one thing he could have done. He could have sued for peace in February 1942 and ended the war with millions of German men still alive and millions of German women un-raped...same as Zelensky should do right now. Ukraine isn't going to win. The best it can do is slow down Russia enough for a negotiated peace to be in both countries' interests, but the time to do that was probably 6-8 months ago.

Much as each encirclement and destruction of a German army due to Hitler's idiotic "stand fast" orders made it less and less necessary for the USSR to negotiate a peace, the more Zelensky feeds his armies into the Russian meat grinder, the more unfavorable any eventual peace is going to be to him.

Fapcop said:
Hitler deserves credit for listening to Manstein and his famous one-two punch through the Ardennes against France.
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Somehow Hitler gets 100% of the credit for other people's plans when he approved them, but when he ignored those same people's plans, ending in disaster...it's not his fault. He's a genius planner, as proven by his approval of a plan he didn't write.

Fapcop said:
I’ve heard it argued that the stand fast order in 41/42 saved the German over extended lines, and prevented a stalemate from turning into a rout.
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Have you heard anyone remotely credible argue this, or only online Nazis? Because I've only heard this from the latter source. Because it was a rout. 600,000 men were lost.

Anyway, this isn't a WW2 thread, we can start a new thread for historically illiterate Nazis to argue with normal people.
 
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Fapcop said:
Send an 80T tank out in those conditions, with an turbine engine that sucks down hundreds of liters a fuel every few hours, seems like a really retarded move.

I’d guess we’ll see some of them abandoned soon enough, either because Lancet damage, or because it gets stuck or runs out of fuel.
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Don’t forget plain lack of maintenance. Western equipment is ridiculously fragile and will break down if it goes more than a few days between overhauls, which they definitely won’t receive.
 
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Fapcop said:
How to supply them though. Or deliver fuel?

Russian railway lines went north from Caucasus to Moscow and only there go east.
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Not quite, they had more railways.
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The black sections existed during the war. If Moscow fell, much of the traffic would have to be rerouted through Kirov as it was the only path that linked the northern front together with the east and the southern front. Also note that Stalingrad could be supplied from the east.

But as The Ugly One said, this is not a WW2 thread. Lets end this discussion here, we have already made our positions clear and there is no need to continue our tangent.
 
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Napoleon III said:
The whole story around this was that Ecuador was going to send old soviet weapons to Ukraine and receive some money from the US congress in return as part of the massive aid bill. Well the massive aid bill failed and so Ecuador gave up ever sending its weapons to Ukraine.
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To give you an idea of what Ecuador would've been potentially sending Ukraine, according to the sources I could find the Soviet-era equipment Ecuador has are:
64 T-55 tanks that apparently haven't seen active service in a decade
~15 BM-21 Grad MRLS systems
8 Czech RM70 MRLS systems that use the same ammunition as the Grad
6 9K33 Osa (aka SA-8 "Gecko") self-propelled SAM systems
30 ZSU-23-4 self-propelled AAA systems they got second hand from Nicaragua
Numerous Strela (SA-7 "Grail") and Igla (SA-16 "Gimlet") MANPADs
Several ZPU series towed 14.5mm AA guns
RPG-7s
AGS-17 grenade launchers

So in other words, a whole bunch of 40 to 60 year old or older second hand equipment, not all of which may even be in working order.

But remember, according to the "experts," it's the Russians that are scraping the bottom of the barrel.
 
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Overly Serious said:
Third Commandment of KiwiFarms: Archive Everything.


View attachment 5731060

But that aside, quite the clip. First she reveals that Russia pays its soldiers. Then she goes further and says that it pays "mercenaries". Have you, um, looked at the number of Western soldiers who have temporarily taken off their national uniforms and gone to fight for Ukraine? You know they're still mercenaries even if Ukraine reneges on paying them afterwards or they get their pay stolen by their commander, right?

I'm less concerned with the verbal slip of saying they have to keep up sanctions because that helps Russia pay its soldiers than that she might believe what she meant to say (that they're stopping Russia from doing so) is actually true.

The failure of sanctions is one of the biggest and most underestimated defeats for the USA here. If there emerges a rival financial system to the dollar, then the USA's $33trn debt suddenly looks a lot more scary to America when people have another option.
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There will absolutely be a rival financial system to the US. Right now the US system is basically just gibs me dats to a superpower that could go to war with your nation at the drop of a hat.
 
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