Community Quiverfull Movement Lolcows - Starring the Duggars

[SpiceyHuman]

Something that's been on my mind and has made me ponder is the way how Evangelical men view marriage and their wives. I've rarely if ever seen any Evangelical man talk of his wife in an affectionate or loving way. Sure they upload photos of their wedding day and photos together but something feels off. It's as if the women are mere servants to their husbands who are good for nothing else and nag constantly. One such quote by evangelicals is that marriage is "hard". which raises my eyebrows. Marriage isn't always easy of course and there are ups and downs, but if it's always "hard" then perhaps you are with the wrong person. And if it's so "hard" and unenjoyable most of the time, then why bother? Marriage should be something that two adult people enjoy most of the time.

A lot of them married too young and have changed too much over time which might be why.

Powerlevel time, but your reply resonates with me.

I have not been married super long. Not yet even a decade, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I have never found actual marriage to be hard. Our ideologies, our financial spending, our major decisions, our division of labor and duties, future goals, expectations, child rearing decisions etc, have been an absolute breeze.

Now, actually living with a person can sometimes be difficult.

Spending the same space with someone, getting used to the nuances of how they prefer their towels folded, for example. Or being annoyed that they are okay with leaving dirty dishes in the sink over night, whereas you have to clean as you go...  that can be hard. But also totally and completely normal. That being said, I don't think I can consider this as the same thing as marriage being "hard".

It really gets the noggin joggin when they say marriage is hard, and the implications of what they really mean.

 

[Android raptor]

I think the way fundies do things just doesn't lend itself to healthy marriages. Everything from they way they view and treat women to the courting bullshit to the way they view sex and labor division. It's geared around letting the worst men have as much power over their wives and children as possible, not healthy and loving relationships.

 

[Cheesegirl78]

I never hear the fundie MEN say the marriage is hard, only the women.

Maybe there is a fundie man who has said that, in the way that he had to discipline his wife HARD because dinner was 30 seconds late. Or she wasn't quite joyfully available enough because she's fucking exhausted from raising a shitload of kids and needed a HARD attitude adjustment.

 

[Sonalee Rashitwar]

Slight PL, but I knew a Muslim lady who treated and helped a lot of FLDS, as she was a doctor and worked in that area.

This person grew up in a similar patriarchal system and had visited some of the least progressive countries in terms of gender. And the FLDS were a bridge too far, she eventually moved because she was so disgusted with how Jeffs treated them, and how the women were so trapped. Said it was worse than Saudi Arabia, because at least there there were laws stating that women had to be financially provided for, and some attempts at reforms (Saudi women can drive now, but the FLDS keep their wives’ and female kids vehicle tabs super out of date so they can’t leave the compound without being pulled over). That, and in the Middle East, more latitude is given for families to decide things, rather than one man saying “do X.”

Edit: I’d pay to watch her meet some of these QF freaks and tell them “you’re worse than fundie Muslims, I would know.”

 

[Android raptor]

Slight PL, but I knew a Muslim lady who treated and helped a lot of FLDS, as she was a doctor and worked in that area.

This person grew up in a similar patriarchal system and had visited some of the least progressive countries in terms of gender. And the FLDS were a bridge too far, she eventually moved because she was so disgusted with how Jeffs treated them, and how the women were so trapped. Said it was worse than Saudi Arabia, because at least there there were laws stating that women had to be financially provided for, and some attempts at reforms (Saudi women can drive now, but the FLDS keep their wives’ and female kids vehicle tabs super out of date so they can’t leave the compound without being pulled over). That, and in the Middle East, more latitude is given for families to decide things, rather than one man saying “do X.”

Edit: I’d pay to watch her meet some of these QF freaks and tell them “you’re worse than fundie Muslims, I would know.”

That's bad if even Saudi Arabia isn't as awful to women as the FLDS. I didn't know that about the vehicles but it doesn't surprise me. It's a cult that basically enslaves girls and women so ofc they'd want to limit their freedom of movement as much as possible to prevent escape (especially since escapees might tell their story to the outside world like in Keep Sweet, Pray, and Obey).

I wonder how it compares to super orthodox Judaism? I know they're also awful to girls and women.

The extreme fundamentalist versions of all the abrahamic religious resemble each other more than the normie moderate versions of the same religion.

 

[Sonalee Rashitwar]

The extreme fundamentalist versions of all the abrahamic religious resemble each other more than the normie moderate versions of the same religion.

I think that’s why she found it so difficult in the end. But this was after the Jeffs arrest, so things were slipping. She was hopefully able to make some of them think, and horrifyingly, saw on security footage that a girl got out because of her.

Kid hid in her trunk to get out, because she did occasionally have to go to the actual town and was allowed to enter and leave as needed, though watched. Had no idea until the area non-FLDS cops asked if she knew anything about that.

 

[Android raptor]

I think that’s why she found it so difficult in the end. But this was after the Jeffs arrest, so things were slipping. She was hopefully able to make some of them think, and horrifyingly, saw on security footage that a girl got out because of her.

Kid hid in her trunk to get out, because she did occasionally have to go to the actual town and was allowed to enter and leave as needed, though watched. Had no idea until the area non-FLDS cops asked if she knew anything about that.

She's a hero if she helped kids escape the FLDS and I hope she knows that.

I'd imagine stuff has changed since the Jeffs arrest but I know FLDS still exists. I wonder who's calling the shots with Jeffs behind bars?

If Gothard ever goes to prison ( ), I wonder what will happen with IBLP? I knows he's not in charge anymore but I can't imagine that wouldn't have some effect.

 

[Cheesegirl78]

She's a hero if she helped kids escape the FLDS and I hope she knows that.

I'd imagine stuff has changed since the Jeffs arrest but I know FLDS still exists. I wonder who's calling the shots with Jeffs behind bars?

If Gothard ever goes to prison ( ), I wonder what will happen with IBLP? I knows he's not in charge anymore but I can't imagine that wouldn't have some effect.

From what I've read, Jeffs still calls most of the shots from prison.

 

[often puzzled]

The bit about keeping car registrations out of date appears in several books I've read. The cops in the area are pretty in the pocket of the FLDS leaders, so it al aids in them sending the women and children back tot he men. In reading several of the memoirs, I started to see how the abuse tactics must just be passed from man to man.

Another way they keep women in check is by lying about the outside world and denying them any form of education. After all, who's going to run if they're convinced the outside world is truly evil and dangerous? And if you have no way at all to survive? And if you're told that your own actions will condemn your loved ones to hell?

Jeffs still calls the shots from in prison, but the state was able to hit the church's bank accounts hard once he was in prison. They don't have the financial resources they once did and lost control of the compound (YFZ-- Yearning for Zion) they were using to isolate members (to an even greater extreme, that is). YFZ was raided at one point, and authorities feared a Waco-like scenario. There are people still entirely faithful to Jeffs, but there have also been other men who have emerged to declare that they're the prophet now.

 

[Free the Pedos]

I wonder how it compares to super orthodox Judaism? I know they're also awful to girls and women.

I'm glad you brought this up because I've thought about this a lot since I used to study ultra Orthodox Jews as a grad student.

My honest to goodness belief is that even though ultra Orthodox communities have a boatload of problems I could talk about all day, women are better off there than in the Quiverfull/fundie/IBLP world. This is for a few reasons:

Spoiler: Sperging

1. These are real communities that value social relationships and physical proximity to one another. Kids go to an actual school together and visit each other often at home, so they see many families they aren't isolated like most Quiverfull types. Women typically have many friends and family members around they can visit with.

2. These communities are based on rules. The patriarch of an individual family or synagogue doesn't get to make dramatic, arbitrary decisions to the extent that Jim Bob and his ilk did. Women can usually get a divorce without too much difficulty. Yes, sometimes rabbis can be corrupt, but I would say that's the exception rather than the rule.

3. Someone once told me that in the IBLP, "there are no families, there are men who have wives and children." This really stuck with me. The UO world is very cognizant of the family as the basic unit of the community. Even though theoretically men are in charge of their wives and kids, I don't recall ever seeing that explicitly pointed out the way it is incessantly with Quiverfull types. Men and women inhabit different spheres and kids are expected to respect both parents as masters of different duties.

I could go on, but I'll leave it here for now.

I'd love to hear opinions from other people interested in both communities.

 

[Android raptor]

The bit about keeping car registrations out of date appears in several books I've read. The cops in the area are pretty in the pocket of the FLDS leaders, so it al aids in them sending the women and children back tot he men. In reading several of the memoirs, I started to see how the abuse tactics must just be passed from man to man.

Another way they keep women in check is by lying about the outside world and denying them any form of education. After all, who's going to run if they're convinced the outside world is truly evil and dangerous? And if you have no way at all to survive? And if you're told that your own actions will condemn your loved ones to hell?

Jeffs still calls the shots from in prison, but the state was able to hit the church's bank accounts hard once he was in prison. They don't have the financial resources they once did and lost control of the compound (YFZ-- Yearning for Zion) they were using to isolate members (to an even greater extreme, that is). YFZ was raided at one point, and authorities feared a Waco-like scenario. There are people still entirely faithful to Jeffs, but there have also been other men who have emerged to declare that they're the prophet now.

I wonder if the other men claiming to be prophets has caused the FLDS to fracture? I also wonder how big it is now.

I'm glad you brought this up because I've thought about this a lot since I used to study ultra Orthodox Jews as a grad student.

My honest to goodness belief is that even though ultra Orthodox communities have a boatload of problems I could talk about all day, women are better off there than in the Quiverfull/fundie/IBLP world. This is for a few reasons:

Spoiler: Sperging

1. These are real communities that value social relationships and physical proximity to one another. Kids go to an actual school together and visit each other often at home, so they see many families they aren't isolated like most Quiverfull types. Women typically have many friends and family members around they can visit with.

2. These communities are based on rules. The patriarch of an individual family or synagogue doesn't get to make dramatic, arbitrary decisions to the extent that Jim Bob and his ilk did. Women can usually get a divorce without too much difficulty. Yes, sometimes rabbis can be corrupt, but I would say that's the exception rather than the rule.

3. Someone once told me that in the IBLP, "there are no families, there are men who have wives and children." This really stuck with me. The UO world is very cognizant of the family as the basic unit of the community. Even though theoretically men are in charge of their wives and kids, I don't recall ever seeing that explicitly pointed out the way it is incessantly with Quiverfull types. Men and women inhabit different spheres and kids are expected to respect both parents as masters of different duties.

I could go on, but I'll leave it here for now.

I'd love to hear opinions from other people interested in both communities.

That's interesting that women can still divorce in ultra orthodox Judaism. That's definitely something the various brands of fundie Christianity don't allow (at least for women).

I hear Orthodox Judaism still has a big problem with CSA and issues with forced and child marriage. How does it compare to the extent of those issues in Christian cults like IBLP and FLDS?

 

[Free the Pedos]

I hear Orthodox Judaism still has a big problem with CSA and issues with forced and child marriage. How does it compare to the extent of those issues in Christian cults like IBLP and FLDS?

I've only heard of child marriage in one cult that had to flee to South America and then Canada. I don't think it's really a concern.

To summarize a lot of info quickly: There's huge pressure to marry in those communities and I have heard stories of people in the more sheltered sub-communities being told who they're going to marry instead of picking along with their parents. The assumption in UO communities is that you'll either go on arranged dates until you find the right person, or in a minority of communities your parents will nominate candidates who you'll have a few brief meetings with. Many people find happy marriages as long as they're allowed some choice, FWIW. Interestingly, these days in the Hasidic world it's common for the girl to be a bit older than the boy when they marry.

There definitely are issues with CSA, especially for boys. Things have gotten way better as far as parents being aware of the issue and schools taking measures to prevent kids being alone with teachers, but it's the same old story where too often some school administrator/rabbi/community grandee will have a reason to keep the victim from rocking the boat and try to suppress things.

I'm cautiously hopeful about the future of this issue in most communities. For example, I was in a UO bookstore the other day and saw this book about teaching kids what is appropriate (in a very roundabout way). It's not the first such book, either. 20 years ago selling such a book in a shop would have been unthinkable.

Needless to say, I don't think even the modern pants wearing IBLP is putting out books about how to keep your kids from getting diddled.

 

[Android raptor]

Needless to say, I don't think even the modern pants wearing IBLP is putting out books about how to keep your kids from getting diddled.

Yeah everything I've heard from IBLP and similar fundie cult survivors is they don't teach anything about that shit. Just purity culture horseshit and blaming kids (especially girls) for being abused. I've heard many survivors say they didn't even know the word rape or anything else about what was happening to them. They had no idea how to even describe what was happening, let alone how to get help.

That's good there's a push within the orthodox Jewish community to address the CSA issue and educate kids on what is and isn't ok.

 

[Cheesegirl78]

She's a hero if she helped kids escape the FLDS and I hope she knows that.

I'd imagine stuff has changed since the Jeffs arrest but I know FLDS still exists. I wonder who's calling the shots with Jeffs behind bars?

If Gothard ever goes to prison ( ), I wonder what will happen with IBLP? I knows he's not in charge anymore but I can't imagine that wouldn't have some effect.

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong guy, but isn't David Waller, husband of Priscilla, and BIL to Nuries' husband Nathan, supposed to be the new leader of the IBLP?

 

[footballteam]

View attachment 5746005
Something that's been on my mind and has made me ponder is the way how Evangelical men view marriage and their wives. I've rarely if ever seen any Evangelical man talk of his wife in an affectionate or loving way. Sure they upload photos of their wedding day and photos together but something feels off. There's no warmth or genuine interest. It's as if the "love" between the men and women has vanished and now the women are mere annoying servants to their husbands who are good for nothing else and nag constantly in their eyes.

One such quote by evangelicals that proves my suspicion is that marriage is "hard", which raises my eyebrows. Marriage isn't always easy of course and there are ups and downs, but if it's always "hard" then perhaps you are with the wrong person. And if it's so "hardest thing there is" and you make it out to be unenjoyable most of the time, then why bother getting married in the first place? Marriage should be something that two adult people enjoy most of the time. There are serious problems in your relationship if you believe marriage is so tough.

A lot of them married too young and have changed too much over time which might be why.

It can be hard, for some more than others - takes a lot of work to maintain a relationship through ups and downs, kids, etc. living with the same person for 10, 20, 30+ years can be difficult. I got married young, and even though you change, you go through it together and you really don't notice it until much later.

Most of the evangelical men that I know love their wives, just not very open about it as they don't see their relationship dynamics as something that the public should know. PDA isn't frowned upon anymore, but it's not encouraged either... most people just like to keep it private.

 

[multiverse]

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong guy, but isn't David Waller, husband of Priscilla, and BIL to Nuries' husband Nathan, supposed to be the new leader of the IBLP?

Yes, David Waller, married to tarded Pris (sister to Nathan and ANNA DUGGAR), is the new head of the IBLP.

This change in leadership took place in 2014 after Gothard got caught perving on dozens of young women who were sent to his HQ / church center as helpers by families eager to win his favor. Gothard is still alive at age 89, but he's been "retired" from the movement he founded for the past decade.

David has to be fairly savvy, power hungry, and willing to overlook sexual abuse to have positioned himself first as Gothard's right hand man, and then won out the leader spot at a relatively young age. This makes me even more squicked out that he married a woman with such obvious developmental delays and mental disability - Pris is literally a brood mare for David, because she isn't capable of being any type of partner for him, or able to lead the women of the church as is expected of a pastor's wife.

Pris is currently pregnant with their seventh child.

 

[Cheesegirl78]

Yes, David Waller, married to tarded Pris (sister to Nathan and ANNA DUGGAR), is the new head of the IBLP.

This change in leadership took place in 2014 after Gothard got caught perving on dozens of young women who were sent to his HQ / church center as helpers by families eager to win his favor. Gothard is still alive at age 89, but he's been "retired" from the movement he founded for the past decade.

David has to be fairly savvy, power hungry, and willing to overlook sexual abuse to have positioned himself first as Gothard's right hand man, and then won out the leader spot at a relatively young age. This makes me even more squicked out that he married a woman with such obvious developmental delays and mental disability - Pris is literally a brood mare for David, because she isn't capable of being any type of partner for him, or able to lead the women of the church as is expected of a pastor's wife.

Pris is currently pregnant with their seventh child.

One of the female victims of Gothard claims Waller was there and knew what was going on.

 

[Ravier Xavenblood]

I'd love to see a 3 way debate between these people, the Hasidic Jews and the average Saudi Muslim fundie.

 

[Karl Hungus]

David has to be fairly savvy, power hungry, and willing to overlook sexual abuse to have positioned himself first as Gothard's right hand man, and then won out the leader spot at a relatively young age. This makes me even more squicked out that he married a woman with such obvious developmental delays and mental disability - Pris is literally a brood mare for David, because she isn't capable of being any type of partner for him, or able to lead the women of the church as is expected of a pastor's wife.

Yeah, honestly I always figured that the Kellers married Pris off to David because she was a borderline sped and they didn’t want to be stuck taking care of her… so they keep popping babies out because poor Pris has a child’s understanding of marriage (Daddy works and Mama has babies) and David gets to pretend he isn’t a flaming faggot that shits glitter and pukes rainbows (“see? I have LOTS OF KIDS which makes me a MANLY MAN”).

It’s a sad and gross situation all around.

 

[Cheesegirl78]

Yeah, honestly I always figured that the Kellers married Pris off to David because she was a borderline sped and they didn’t want to be stuck taking care of her… so they keep popping babies out because poor Pris has a child’s understanding of marriage (Daddy works and Mama has babies) and David gets to pretend he isn’t a flaming faggot that shits glitter and pukes rainbows (“see? I have LOTS OF KIDS which makes me a MANLY MAN”).

It’s a sad and gross situation all around.

Yeah, he's gonna get busted in a male prostitute situation in a few more years, along with Paul Oliges (sp) and at least one of the Duggar duds and maybe a Rodlet or two as well.