Surrogacy and IVF Debate Thread

[Heckler1]

@Lemmingwiser Because outside of very niche circumstances it is wealthy people using someone's circumstance to be their dehumanized breeder. It is commodifying the act of life itself as well as babies, and primarily preys upon desperate women. Seems obviously evil to me.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

@Lemmingwiser Because outside of very niche circumstances it is wealthy people using someone's circumstance to be their dehumanized breeder. It is commodifying the act of life itself as well as babies, and primarily preys upon desperate women. Seems obviously evil to me.

Right, my question was less about practical real world application, and more about foundational philosophical. Am I to understand that the main (and probably unavoidable) reason for your opposition is the complete wealth inequality and therefor predatory nature of it?

ps I'm not laying a trap for a gotcha, I'm just curious because I have had little thought about the subject before this thread.

 

[smile.jpg]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

 

[SpergioLeonne]

@Lemmingwiser Because outside of very niche circumstances it is wealthy people using someone's circumstance to be their dehumanized breeder. It is commodifying the act of life itself as well as babies, and primarily preys upon desperate women. Seems obviously evil to me.

Good. Then rich people disperse income to the surrogate mothers AND their financial empires can fracture amongst kids.

Look, I’m all for letting people make as much money as they can without committing fraud and whatnot, but you also want to give them shit to spend it on, or you get hyper stratification

 

[Fareal]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

"My beloved wife, I want to pay fifty grand of our shared capital to fulfil my ultimate fantasy: that another man will breed you. I want you to grow round and heavy with his child; the ultimate proof of how I have failed you in the most basic way. I want to watch you softly touch your stomach and think of the strong alpha man who completed you as a woman."

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

If "someone the Internet" makes a good moral argument then it's wose not to dismiss that on the basis of the, being someone on the Internet lmao.

There's good reasons to be against IFV, and Michael Knowles outlines them succinctly. It's not only immoral but politically imprudent to support IFV. Worst of all, it enables faggots to more easily access victims.

 

[World Famous Quasi Payer]

I am explaining how contract law works. If the only thing required by the contract was the service of gestation itself, there would be no contractual requirement to deliver the baby to the buyers safely or indeed at all. It's not a contract for services. It is also, and indeed principally, a contract for delivery of a human baby.

The "requirement "to deliver the baby to the "buyers" is nothing more than following the law that fathers have rights to their children.

Regardless of father's rights, this is just stupid on its head. This is like saying a house painter has no obligation to provide you with painted walls, and can willfully punch holes in them at will. Or an architect has no obligation to provide you with the blueprints after you hire him to design a house.

In law the child of a unmarried mother belongs to the mother only, and the mother is the person who has just demonstrably shoved the baby out of her own body. "it's his childdddd" well no it isn't, not until there's a court order to that effect. Moids do not have unequivocal physical evidence of any relationship to a child at birth. I understand this is why there is so much seething about the idea of "paternity fraud".

Yes, I forget how backwards Britain is. I can see why your men no longer bother to protect you from foreign rapists. Of course, it is strange that Britain expects men to pay child support or as you call it child maintenance for a child that he has no legal right to.

The price of being a MGTOW is being a broken branch until it become technologically possible to both conceive and gestate a human entirely outside the womb. The technology for that is very far away (nothing is impossible). Moids say they are good at sacrifice, and holding fast to their principles, so being childless shouldn't be difficult for them.

Why wait till then? Surrogacy exists now. MGTOWs rejoice! lol.

I am broadly in favour of people keeping their fucking nose out of my uterus, and in return I am fully happy to keep my nose out of theirs.

Except for when they wish to be surrogates. Either a woman has a right to do with her uterus as she sees fit, or she doesn't; and as the increase in surrogacy shows, this view is the popular, ascended one.

Lower abortion rates are the reason A&N exists. I am a eugenicist. More sub 130 IQ males need to die to rebalance society and get rid of the fucking useless vidya/anime/porn consoomer cattle.

You do realize there are more women in the UK than men, right? And besides, all those things were only made possible by advancements from 130+ IQ men.

Surrogacy will continue to grow in use and acceptance unless restrained by law because the opening chasm between the wealthy and the poor in society will work as it always does. The poor will sell more and more of their dignity and their very bodies to survive in the conditions the elite choose to inflict on them, and the elite will benefit. Our species are predators, and we will predate on one another in any way we can unless and until we are prevented from doing so. Everything always gets shittier for those in society with the least power.

Surrogacy isn't predation. This is just asinine, and frankly anti-natalist.

Luckily, there are hopeful signs that in a few generations, those with the least power will be moids, instead of brown women, like it always is.

Imagine saying this while living in a country being over run by brown Islamic rapists and their women who pump out more invaders.

 

[webonoid]

I think its icky especially if they're picking out races that aren't them for aesthetic reasons like its build-a-bear.

 

[Lidl Drip]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

Just adopt. Saying it's either biological children or bust is actually you being a selfish prick and not the self sacrifice you think it is. Making your wife go through an expensive and invasive medical process that will have her inject hormones every day and might lead to heartbreak over and over again is way more cruel than just getting over your weird complex that adopting an orphan is cuckolding.

 

[ITK]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

You could also simply not divorce your wive for infertility and not force her to go through IVF.

 

[Lidl Drip]

You could also simply not divorce your wive for infertility and not force her to go through IVF.

It's also weird to assume that the wife is to blame by default. It's pretty equal between the genders actually.



Men don't like to admit that they are just as likely to be infertile as women are.

 

[DumbDude43]

My beloved wife whom I married, I love you, but I can't make babies with you because you're sterile so I'm leaving you, lol. Yeah I know you could get pregnant via IVF but someone on the internet told me that if you can't have kids the natural way then you shouldn't be allowed to, so I'm still leaving you. Bye :3

how common is this though?
like, how much IFV is done on women who have legitimate fertility issues? compared to how much is insane feminists who deliberately seek out single motherhood, or old hags who simply squandered away their youth and fertility?

It's also weird to assume that the wife is to blame by default. It's pretty equal between the genders actually.

View attachment 5799609

Men don't like to admit that they are just as likely to be infertile as women are.

true but irrelevant
ifv doesn't apply to infertile men

 

[Flan Handler]

Anyone else had experience with children of lesbian mothers?

Pardon the PL, but I am living a lot of this right now.

My husband and I had to use IVF. It worked beautifully, we have a great kid and a happy little family. It was super expensive and invasive, but we wanted a shot at having a kid with our own genetics.

We did research adoption, and in my jurisdiction that means either some sketchy international baby trafficking that cost twice as much as IVF, or adoption from foster care, which means a fetal alcohol syndrome abused native kid, who would have to be in a relationship with its fucked up birth family if they wanted it. I admire anyone willing to take that on, but that wasn’t for us.

At the same time, a lesbian couple closely related to us did IVF (they did fail IUI a few times and had to go to full IVF). They had twin boys. So that’s my boy and their boys born within a few months of each other so I’m seeing this play out in real time.

The lesbians are in hell. They hate men, and weren’t legally allowed to screen for sex in the fertility clinic, and probably assumed they’d get at least one girl. They can’t afford another IVF round, so these poor boys are 100% of their kids.

They drink. Like, the two of them go through two bottles of gin a week, typically imbibed after the boys got to bed. Their marriage is incredibly stressed, I’m not sure how they are keeping it together. Just very thinly veiled hostility to one another when we are around them.

One of the lesbians is pretty chill, she was always kind of outdoorsy and athletic so she can roll with the rambunctiousness, and is not hostile towards men. The other one is a political lesbian, and haaaates males.

What’s funny is, the political lesbian does not want to be judged negatively so she tries so hard to be a good mom. So I don’t want to shit on her but she doesn’t like anything about rowdy young boys.

The boys are kind of like cats. They don’t pay attention to anyone or warm up to them, other than my husband, who will roughhouse with them, so they just hang off of him. They just run over political lesbian mom, who I think feel guilty about how she feels about them. Sporty lesbian tries but gets overruled constantly.

Anyways, all the kids are just entering school age (although the twins have been in daycare since infancy) so it is still playing out, but from the outside it does not look easy at all.

 

[SpergioLeonne]

Just adopt. Saying it's either biological children or bust is actually you being a selfish prick and not the self sacrifice you think it is. Making your wife go through an expensive and invasive medical process that will have her inject hormones every day and might lead to heartbreak over and over again is way more cruel than just getting over your weird complex that adopting an orphan is cuckolding.

It’s not really insanely selfish to want your own biological kids.

I’m not trying to say anyone SHOULD do whatever, but there very much IS a difference between raising your own kids and someone else’s. It’s not just an imaginary difference

 

[Lidl Drip]

true but irrelevant
ifv doesn't apply to infertile men

Uhh.. yeah it does? If your sperm are too slow, stupid and sluggish to find the egg then they need to be directly injected into it by a doctor.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

The lesbians are in hell. They hate men, and weren’t legally allowed to screen for sex in the fertility clinic, and probably assumed they’d get at least one girl. They can’t afford another IVF round, so these poor boys are 100% of their kids.

I hate people like this so much. Whether it's chinese murdering their baby girls or lesbians hating their sons, or anyone that judges a baby on such superficial metrics. It's a baby. You're supposed to love it.

They just run over political lesbian mom, who I think feel guilty about how she feels about them.

Ah okay, I can kinda get that. I don't hate her as much now, just substantially.


---

Overall though, honestly not as bad as I thought.

 

[Flan Handler]

Just adopt. Saying it's either biological children or bust is actually you being a selfish prick and not the self sacrifice you think it is.

There appears to be a whole bunch of people who think it’s still the 1960s, when we had a large number of healthy young babies and children and the focus was finding them a good home.

With birth control and abortion, the birth rate has crashed almost everywhere, so the adoption market is now set up to provide childless couples with healthy young children.

It’s subtle but important. A lot of these “just adopt” people haven’t actually seen what that industry is now.

The international adoption racket appears to be human trafficking.

Local adoptions are incredibly difficult for adoptive parents. I’m not saying it’s wrong, the open adoptions may be the best thing for the kid, but it’s asking a lot to have to keep the birth family in the picture with visits etc.

It may be different elsewhere, but here there are no closed adoptions. You can cheaply adopt from foster care but the kids come with whatever bullshit family they had that was so bad the parental rights got terminated.

Since IVF exists, I don’t see how my only parenting option should be to raise an abused fetal alcohol syndrome kid with a family of fuck ups along for the ride, when I would never drink during pregnancy, or hurt a kid.

We are just a normal married couple with some plumbing issues. Seriously, god bless the people willing to take on the burdens of raising those kids, they need angels who will have the skills and patience to take care of them.

 

[Lidl Drip]

There appears to be a whole bunch of people who think it’s still the 1960s, when we had a large number of healthy young babies and children and the focus was finding them a good home.

With birth control and abortion, the birth rate has crashed almost everywhere, so the adoption market is now set up to provide childless couples with healthy young children.

It’s subtle but important. A lot of these “just adopt” people haven’t actually seen what that industry is now.

The international adoption racket appears to be human trafficking.

Local adoptions are incredibly difficult for adoptive parents. I’m not saying it’s wrong, the open adoptions may be the best thing for the kid, but it’s asking a lot to have to keep the birth family in the picture with visits etc.

It may be different elsewhere, but here there are no closed adoptions. You can cheaply adopt from foster care but the kids come with whatever bullshit family they had that was so bad the parental rights got terminated.

Since IVF exists, I don’t see how my only parenting option should be to raise an abused fetal alcohol syndrome kid with a family of fuck ups along for the ride, when I would never drink during pregnancy, or hurt a kid.

We are just a normal married couple with some plumbing issues. Seriously, god bless the people willing to take on the burdens of raising those kids, they need angels who will have the skills and patience to take care of them.

It's fine to be against adoption, if you're not also against abortions (since someone needs to adopt those kids born to people who don't want them or aren't fit to have them).

IVF is against my beliefs. I think if god doesn't want you to have children naturally then maybe you are meant to adopt a child that doesn't have parents.

 

[Flan Handler]

It's fine to be against adoption, if you're not also against abortions (since someone needs to adopt those kids born to people who don't want them or aren't fit to have them).

IVF is against my beliefs. I think if god doesn't want you to have children naturally then maybe you are meant to adopt a child that doesn't have parents.

What I’m saying is, regardless of my beliefs about abortion, previously adoptable children currently get aborted, so the only unwanted children being born right now are to two types of people:

1. People who are so disorganized they can’t get themselves an abortion when countless organizations and government agencies are clamouring to help you with that, or

2. People whose convictions don’t allow themselves to get an abortion, in which case they usually raise them themselves, or are actively involved in selecting an adoptive family (pretty rare these days).

I’m having a hard time looking at my kid and thinking god would rather have me expend great effort and money raising some extremely damaged kid I am not equipped for, rather than my average little guy who has a shot at contributing to the world some day.

Maybe if abortion is restricted, more kids from category 2 will be born, and have a chance at being raised by normal childless couples, but as of a few years ago they basically didn’t exist.

 

[Lidl Drip]

What I’m saying is, regardless of my beliefs about abortion, previously adoptable children currently get aborted, so the only unwanted children being born right now are to two types of people:

1. People who are so disorganized they can’t get themselves an abortion when countless organizations and government agencies are clamouring to help you with that, or

2. People whose convictions don’t allow themselves to get an abortion, in which case they usually raise them themselves, or are actively involved in selecting an adoptive family (pretty rare these days).

I’m having a hard time looking at my kid and thinking god would rather have me expend great effort and money raising some extremely damaged kid I am not equipped for, rather than my average little guy who has a shot at contributing to the world some day.

Maybe if abortion is restricted, more kids from category 2 will be born, and have a chance at being raised by normal childless couples, but as of a few years ago they basically didn’t exist.

I doubt most people would adopt kids at all, even if it's a perfectly healthy orphan, because most people want biological children and feel entitled to them even if they are in gay relationships or infertile. I just find it extremely hypocritical that people (mostly men) who say adoption is being cuckolded also use "You can just give your child up for adoption" as an argument against abortion. Either you allow abortions or you ban it but then make an effort to adopt those unwanted children instead of dumping them all on the system.

More people should adopt and IVF is definitely preventing people from adopting children who need homes. I think "Oh the kid would just be a drug addict loser and waste of resources" is a horrible attitude to have btw.