Dragon Age: The Veilguard - A woke disaster? Yep!

[Mola Ram]

I don't think it's the devs not taking DA2 seriously when making it as much as they literally had no time to make it.
DAO came out November 2009.
DA2 came out March 2011.
That's barely over a year of development. That's an insanely short amount of time and you can clearly see it in DA2's laughably copy pasted dungeons and washed down combat.
DAO was in development for almost a decade or some shit.

It'd be nice if this meant that Dreadwolf will be a work of absolute genius, but alas.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

It'd be nice if this meant that Dreadwolf will be a work of absolute genius, but alas.

Rumormill has it some beta tester leaked his experience with the game's build. One of the things he said was that the worldbuilding was as woke as you could expect. Characters are all basically different versions of Varic with Marvel'esqe quips and jokes. Who knows if it's legit info, but with the current state of Bioware, you can safely bet the game will be as woke and as gay as possible, no matter the amount of time put into making it.

 

[Night Crawler]

I never had a PS3 or 360 back then so I never played them. My experience with Bioware games stopped with the KOTOR games and jade Empire. I never got into Mass Effect or the Dragon Age games. I have Dragon Age: Origins Ultimate Edition on Steam. I never played it. The only thing I know is that the Dragon Age games kind of went downhill after the first one.

People are saying this is going to be the last chance for Bioware and the Dragon Age games.

 

[Tepes Thot]

I don't think it's the devs not taking DA2 seriously when making it as much as they literally had no time to make it.
DAO came out November 2009.
DA2 came out March 2011.
That's barely over a year of development. That's an insanely short amount of time and you can clearly see it in DA2's laughably copy pasted dungeons and washed down combat.
DAO was in development for almost a decade or some shit.

Eh that accounts for some of the gameplay but not really the story. The story would feel rushed, but turning Anders into the literal embodiment of tumblr for example, that’s just bad writing. You could have 5 seconds, 5 months, or 5 yrs and that would be unacceptable. He’s the best, but not only, example of shit writing. There’s like two characters (Aveline and Varric) that aren’t raindrop deep, but even they’re undercooked in places.
The overall story is just ridiculous.

The gameplay I’ll excuse, even though it really was miserable, but location design, no. I would’ve appreciated if they just ran the textures through photoshop, and changed the hue and remixed existing textures rather than literal copy/paste dungeons over and over. To release that and charge people is astounding.

 

[DagothUr]

People are saying this is going to be the last chance for Bioware and the Dragon Age games.

It's already over. There is no chance Dreadwolf comes out good, and that's if it comes out at all.
AFAIK it's not even really been worked on in the years since DAI released, because they focused on making the other slop instead. Though even if they had worked on it non-stop for 10 years, it's unlikely it would make it any better given the absolute state of Bioware (and AAA gaming in general).
It will make Inquisition look like a masterpiece.

 

[Night Crawler]

It's already over. There is no chance Dreadwolf comes out good, and that's if it comes out at all.
AFAIK it's not even really been worked on in the years since DAI released, because they focused on making the other slop instead. Though even if they had worked on it non-stop for 10 years, it's unlikely it would make it any better given the absolute state of Bioware (and AAA gaming in general).
It will make Inquisition look like a masterpiece.

It's just not the same Bioware that made games like Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 the KOTOR games and Jade Empire. All those people are gone.

 

[SIMIΔN]

That's an insanely short amount of time and you can clearly see it in DA2's laughably copy pasted dungeons and washed down combat.

I was already bored with it half way through act 1. Not only because of the repetitive locations but because each turn of a corner was another meaningless low stakes fight.

I think this is exemplified with the dragon fight. A dragon randomly appears in your path, you kill it and move on. Whereas DAO built up a lot of mystery and encroaching terror before a challenging fight. Dragons are supposed to be super rare, fighting one is akin to somehow beating off a live and hungry T-Rex today.

That being said I loved the art direction, especially the otherworldly looking elves and oxmen/Qunari.

 

[Ishtar]

Wait Merrill was in DAO? I played the circle mage warden, was that the Dalish one?

Anyways-seems I’m in the minority when it comes to DA2, admittedly it was the first one I played. And having played a lot of Mass Effect before, I found it the easiest to adjust too in terms of play style.

DAO struck me as an early 2000s rpg, something I’d watched my dad play(Neverwinter Nights), but I’d never really played myself. The combat in DAO is far less dynamic and I dunno, didn’t resonate with me that much.

DA2’s story is basically the Fall of Kirkwall, and its main theme is Hawke is swept up in events beyond his ability to change. (It’s also a straight up rags to riches story). I don’t really see what is ridiculous about it? The Templars are oppressing the mages, the Qunari nearly burn down the city, and as woke as you might say the game is-seeing the final boss is literally a woman whose so crazy she can’t even keep her lieutenants from trying to overthrow her. Admittedly the Orsino boss fight was ridiculous. (It works better if you’re siding with the templars).

As far as Whedon stuff-I only really saw that with Sera in DAI? The concept of Sera is interesting-self hating Robin Hood wannabe that is basically blindly lashing out and has an extremely simplistic view of the world and has near zero social graces. but I don’t think even Oghren was as odious to speak too. It’s just really poorly executed all around. Maybe that was the point, it then it doesn’t make it any more pleasant.

She makes a bunch of immature quips and Marvel tier needling other characters-Inquisition would have come out just as the MCU was entering its full swing. I don’t really see that with any other cast members though-except Dorian? Well really not even Dorian, for being the flamboyant gay, he’s a lot more serious and less immersion breaking. Most of DAI’s characters don’t have that “ironic” wink at the audience irony poison, but you can see that slip a bit with Sera.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

Eh that accounts for some of the gameplay but not really the story. The story would feel rushed, but turning Anders into the literal embodiment of tumblr for example, that’s just bad writing. You could have 5 seconds, 5 months, or 5 yrs and that would be unacceptable. He’s the best, but not only, example of shit writing. There’s like two characters (Aveline and Varric) that aren’t raindrop deep, but even they’re undercooked in places.
The overall story is just ridiculous.

The gameplay I’ll excuse, even though it really was miserable, but location design, no. I would’ve appreciated if they just ran the textures through photoshop, and changed the hue and remixed existing textures rather than literal copy/paste dungeons over and over. To release that and charge people is astounding.

Agreed. KotOR 2: Sith Lords had a similarly rushed schedule and had many of the same technical problems, being incomplete jank with a lot of very obviously rushed areas. Yet the writing was great, to the point that people still fondly discuss it and even make video essays about it. Hell, even the Awakening expansion was done in about a year and had much, much stronger writing than DA2.

DA2 has a lot of great concepts but not a single one of them is executed well. The most bizarre thing about DA2's bad writing is that the writing staff was pretty much the same as Origins and Awakening. Even Hamburger Helper, the fat chick everyone rags on, was a writer for Origins, having done most of the writing for the dwarves and the deep roads, which a lot of people tend to like.

 

[Ishtar]

If DA2 has any problem, it’s clearly how rushed it is. The re used cave and city streets are another symptom of an expedited development cycle.

(Then again, how distinct were Origin environments really?-not the main quest stuff, but the road ambushes and Denerim back alleys? I don’t recall them being particularly distinct).

But anyways, if I’m going to be in the minority here, let me say what I like about DA2.

The Framing Device-Varric telling(and embellishing) the story works very well to set up the stakes, (that being it’s not saving the world but what happened does matter for the city).
The siblings-I confess I haven’t played an RPG with a family for the protagonist. Bethany’s bitterness about being made a grey warden or Carver’s resentment about being the younger sibling works very well, then being separated from Hawke/dying adds to the sense of tragedy the game creates.
Most of the companions-Merrill’s story is about pride and Faustian bargains, but it’s left ambiguous if she was really going to fail or not. Some of the better writing in the game. Fenris hostility to Mages makes sense for his character, and while he’s brooding, the edginess is justified. (And not overdone). Isabela is the sex appeal, and “jack sparrow but with a vagina” but to the game’s credit, we are reminded she is in fact a selfish thief. DA2 Anders is a fanatical revolutionary, and I’ve seen some people say they prefer that. (Whenever I finish awakening, I’ll probably say the same).
The Qunari plot-this game really gives us depth about what the Qunari are about. I wish you could have dialogue where you agree more with the Arishok. Because he’s correct, Kirkwall is a shithole.
The Mage-Templar conflict-this is probably the most “Tumblr” aspect insofar as it overlays the “oppressed-oppressor” framework. But…you do get both perspectives, the Circle probably is miserable and shitty but we’re running into abominations and power crazed blood mages every next alley. It’s well written because it doesn’t paint either side as a caricature. You can absolutely side with the templars, and the game gives you a lot of reason to do so.
Leandra’s death-this is probably the peak of DA2 for me and sums up the game.

That is, Hawke is almost always reacting to problems and his ability to solve them is limited to clean up after the fact. No matter how fast you move or how badass you are, sometimes you just come up short. Sometimes the hero can’t do anymore than that. All he can do is cradle his mother who got the Frankenstein treatment, he was too late.

The DLCs-Mark of the Assassin and Legacy are alright I think mostly. The former gives us more insight into the Qun(a religion and a race), and the latter is not as good. If Mark has any problem, it’s that the first part is not fun at all. Also for Mark-first real visit to Orlais I believe?

One other thing I like-the sense of companionship and family. You do get the genuine impression after seven years Hawke is more or less family with his companions, and his companions all know each other(Fenris plays cards with Avelline’s husband). That sense of familiarity gives both the wholesome feels and also feels realistic-these people know each other and are friends.

Anyways, I’m probably in the minority here but DA2 is a fine(and replayable) game. Compared to say Origins, where I just wanted it to end by the time I was at the end. (I have a lot less patience than regular gamers I guess).

 

[Mola Ram]

If DA2 has any problem, it’s clearly how rushed it is. The re used cave and city streets are another symptom of an expedited development cycle.

(Then again, how distinct were Origin environments really?-not the main quest stuff, but the road ambushes and Denerim back alleys? I don’t recall them being particularly distinct).

Pretty sure every Origins environment is distinct, including wilderness and backstreet encounters. I do not recall a single reused map, though there are obviously reused assets. There's a reason the DA2 recycling struck such a sour note.

 

[Mukhrani]

The Qunari plot-this game really gives us depth about what the Qunari are about. I wish you could have dialogue where you agree more with the Arishok. Because he’s correct, Kirkwall is a shithole.

Yeah I loved the Arishok as a character and sided with him so much that I got the ending of that part where he approves of you. That's why it especially pissed me off when they turned Iron Bull into such a ridiculous anachronistic joke of a character who respects pooners or whatever. However bad the writing was in DA2, it was waaaay better than Inquisition. I didn't like Merrill's weird twee vibe or Antifa-Anders, hated Isabella but she was at least believable as a character, but nothing was truly immersion-breaking like some of the cast of Inquisition.

 

[Ishtar]

Apparently, if you rival Merrill-she drops the innocent childlike vibe? I could never do that because look at those eyes. She comes across that way, due to being sheltered and totally oblivious to human social customs and norms. Its meant to be endearing, but I can understand why some people don't like it.

Yeah Iron Bull comes across a bit too amenable-part of what makes the Qunari tick, is how alien their values are and how little regard they have for the "baas".

He's not even that strong in combat.

 

[Tor Lugosi]

A Qunari intelligence officer/spy could've been an interesting character... but, yeah, they pozzed them and their lore way too much in Inquisition, leaving them a rainbow colored shadow of their former selves.

I bought the Ultimate Edition of DAO on GOG a few years back for like $5 during a sale, so that I wouldn't have to fuck around with the physical discs or worry about DRM and patches. I'm getting the urge to replay it after talking about it. Looking at the Nexus Mods page for it, there's a few mods that restore cut content and try to fix various bugs and broken aspects of the games. Unfortunately, I'm one of those type of people who five minutes into rewatching/replaying/rereading something I immediately start to remember most of it and usually then quickly drop it.

 

[Waifuchu]

But anyways, if I’m going to be in the minority here, let me say what I like about DA2.

I'm the only person I know who likes DA2 the most, and I'll freely admit that it has a lot of problems. I like how it's so much more personal and smaller-scale than the usual fare of "THE WORD IS IN DANGER OF THE FORETOLD EVIL, AND ONLY YOU ARE THE CHOSEN HERO WHO CAN STOP THE DARKNESS!" I mean, I like Origins too, but the main plot there wasn't exactly innovative. DA2's cast all feels relatively real, and even the cuntier party members have pretty reasonable excuses for their cuntiness. I can overlook a lot of the rushed aspects because the thing was rushed by EA. It'd be nice if we had more than five repeating dungeons, but that's not a deal-breaker for me, I guess.

Pretty sure every Origins environment is distinct, including wilderness and backstreet encounters. I do not recall a single reused map, though there are obviously reused assets. There's a reason the DA2 recycling struck such a sour note.

Some of the random wilderness events you get in the overworld are copy-pasted, but no important story locations that I can recall. Just a handful of instances of "Oh, we're in the random encounter field again. This time we're being attacked by wolves. It was bandits last time."

 

[Ishtar]

DAO is weird in that it tries to be a gritty dark fantasy(the broodmother, Flemeth, and the like) while also just redoing standard heroic fantasy tropes. Hero is special, has a mentor, the mentor dies, they save the world(or at least their country).

Apparently even a female Warden can become Queen?

TBH, I'm not sure how well it actually melds these two elements.

Inquisition is much the same but is even less "dark and gritty".

 

[Waifuchu]

DAO is weird in that it tries to be a gritty dark fantasy(the broodmother, Flemeth, and the like) while also just redoing standard heroic fantasy tropes. Hero is special, has a mentor, the mentor dies, they save the world(or at least their country).

Apparently even a female Warden can become Queen?

TBH, I'm not sure how well it actually melds these two elements.

Inquisition is much the same but is even less "dark and gritty".

DAO does a decent enough job of it. The general story beats are typical high fantasy fare, but you soak all the elements in edge and blood and tits. It's tonally consistent enough that it works well enough, I'd say. Only the human female Warden can be queen, because she's from a noble background. Any other background, and the best you can hope for is to be King Alistair's concubine.

Inquisition, on the other hand, is "dark and mature" in that the characters can say "fuck" and now the nude female character models have nipples, and that's about it.

 

[Ishtar]

Inquisition isn't "dark"-you can literally say you want to redeem Solas at the end of the game. I mean, unless "dark and mature" just means...damn what does Inquisition have that makes it stand out as particularly edgy or gritty again?

I'm drawing a blank here.

The protagonist being evil/malicious isn't as much an option, it is in DAO and DA2.

There's no real instances of rape-implied in DA2, and the Broodmother in DAO, no "selling elves into slavery and turning them into bags of blood", or pouring draconic blood on the ashes of the setting's Jesus figure.

The inquisitor can execute people, but...I'm genuinely not coming up with any "gritty" or "edge" elements in DAI at all. DA2 at least has a few shocking moments that feel like "dark fantasy", DAI really does not.

 

[Kane Lives]

Inquisition isn't "dark"-you can literally say you want to redeem Solas at the end of the game. I mean, unless "dark and mature" just means...damn what does Inquisition have that makes it stand out as particularly edgy or gritty again?

I'm drawing a blank here.

The protagonist being evil/malicious isn't as much an option, it is in DAO and DA2.

There's no real instances of rape-implied in DA2, and the Broodmother in DAO, no "selling elves into slavery and turning them into bags of blood", or pouring draconic blood on the ashes of the setting's Jesus figure.

The inquisitor can execute people, but...I'm genuinely not coming up with any "gritty" or "edge" elements in DAI at all. DA2 at least has a few shocking moments that feel like "dark fantasy", DAI really does not.

Inquisition is what tumblr thinks "dark & edgy" means. All the surface pretensions without the actual edge.

 

[Ishtar]

I mean, I genuinely don't even see any surface pretensions. Honestly, Inquisition is pretty noblebright-at least in tone and theme anyway.

The Inquisitor saves the world, saves their friends, they can even somehow get the three claimants to the Orlesian throne to make peace(via blackmail but still).

The most "dark" thing one could say about it, is it treats religion as it best, noble misunderstandings, at worst outright lies and forgotten memories. The elven gods were just really powerful mages, Andraste didn't rescue the Inquisitor-its not even clear what the being that resembles divine justinia in the fade is.

I suppose...you could say that's dark in the sense that people's cherished beliefs and history aren't true.

But then, all the DA games are cynical towards religious claims and institutions. At best they are treated with non committal ambiguity.

So again, I'm really confused why anyone-even a Tumblr fangirl squeeing over Solavellan would consider "dark"?

Is darkness because um-there is politics? That Orlais wants the Inquisition collared and Ferelden wants it gone? I mean-all the DA games do have a degree of political cynicism, I guess? You can save the world, but the Game never ends.

I'm just really confused-having played through the game recently what is "dark and edgy" about it.

Hushed Whispers? Its a very well done score and set piece, but okay "time travel into the future, where the villain wins, this would be very bad" isn't "dark" in terms of theme or tone. It's just well presented.

(You can even spare Alexius)

I'm drawing a complete blank here-Inquisition is much closer to standard heroic fantasy than either DAO or DA2 are.

The only "dark and gritty" bits I could give it credit for-is the religious stuff. Corypheus claims the golden city was empty, the Dalish religion and culture is to be charitable-a terrible misunderstanding, the dwarves were once part of some greater power-and now they aren't. Oh and uh-the Qunari may have some connection to dragons?