Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

You know, I hear that "most of it is crap" line waxed about relentlessly by naysayers online, and in true ambiguous fashion, they can never provide an exact ratio of good-to-bad books, or good-to-bad comics. And whenever you press these people on the books they've read, and the actual nature of those books, they suddenly retreat into vague, ambiguous gibbering, revealing very quickly that their entire knowledge of the EU is informed by lore videos and Wookiepedo articles.
It's one of those things people say but then can't provide a single example for. Well, one example, that Sith Lord dude who had a powersuit that gave his multiple lightsabers all over his body which genuinely isn't that stupid. Most criticisms of the EU are like that meme where someone will describe the coolest shit ever and then say it's stupid for some reason.
 
@Mississippi Motorboater thank you for the detailed response. based on what you and other posters have told me, fuck it I'm staying away entirely outside of the JJM book I preordered.

I'm sad, I had hoped in a decade we'd have at least 5-10 books that were worth looking at but it seems like there isn't, and if there is the bad is so miserably horrible nobody with half a brain would sift through the shit to find them.

I have a friend who I'm not particularly close to but have known since I was a teenager. he's a tattoo artist and has done all of mine basically for free. he's a bit younger than me but as a kid in high school we basically became friends because I kept up with the EU and would let him read the books or comics after me.

He used to irritate me because he'd always complain how he didn't feel like he was getting the whole story because he hadn't read junior or young Jedi knights. I always thought this was retarded. granted I had read them but in the third grade so its not like I was reading legacy of the Force with them in mind really.

Anywhore when Disney rebooted the EU this guy went all in and was reading all canon material. which I told him I didn't give a shit but I respected the move, it probably was pretty cool to get in on the ground floor. it's what my dad and uncle did in the early 90s. I was fine with a reboot but really wasn't ready to throw away basically the only non assigned in school fiction I had read my entire life. I read a lot but basically only nonfiction history and biographies, star wars and superhero comics are the only fiction j really seeked out.

Ive watched this guy go from 'it'll get good eventually' to being seriously miserable because he keeps up with this shit. poor bastard when Rise of Skywalker released was doing the most insane mental gymnastics I've ever seen to try to like a movie he hated intensely.

I used to ask him every few months if there was anything I'd like and he's why I read the first two Vader series because although I didn't love them I flat liked them. No more no less, and I appreciated the fact he gave em to me and told me exactly what I'd think and he was right they were more star wars I enjoyed in the moment but would never look out for or look at again.

the one thing he always repeats even when he was trying to convince himself it was good is there's a metric ton of self insert fiction. even shit he liked he described that way. that's my problem with movies and tv today is self insert bullshit, no way in hell would I dedicate the time it takes to read a novel to that material.
 
I at least definitely wasn't saying most of it sucked. I love it. my star wars isn't even the movies it's probably New Jedi Order. Even if you hate the EU it's fucking retarded not to let it continue in some form. most of those authors would probably do it for the fucking low just to continue writing in that world.
I'd argue it's closer to a 50/50 split. Even the best EU arcs tend to have some stupid shit, but at the same time, even the worst ones tend to have awesome shit. You have your Bakura arc, but then you also get your Dark Empire or Thrawn Trilogy.

Back when Lucas was still in possession of all his marbles, the visual novels had some really cool little articles by Lucas in the subsections analyzing things like how the Emperor viewed the philosophical connotations behind the force and shit. It was neat, and even these little blurbs were way beyond any of the shit Disney can put out now.
 
I'd argue it's closer to a 50/50 split. Even the best EU arcs tend to have some stupid shit, but at the same time, even the worst ones tend to have awesome shit. You have your Bakura arc, but then you also get your Dark Empire or Thrawn Trilogy.

Back when Lucas was still in possession of all his marbles, the visual novels had some really cool little articles by Lucas in the subsections analyzing things like how the Emperor viewed the philosophical connotations behind the force and shit. It was neat, and even these little blurbs were way beyond any of the shit Disney can put out now.
this is probably the closest to how I personally feel. separating myself from nostalgia the stuff I like also has dumbassery but ill take the trade off. Return of the Jedi has my favorite moments in the whole franchise but out of the original 6 I think its by far the worst movie but the highs outweighs the lows and the EU is the same way
 
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Well, one example, that Sith Lord dude who had a powersuit that gave his multiple lightsabers all over his body which genuinely isn't that stupid.
You're talking about "Lord Nyax"...a character that Aaron Allston created in his New Jedi Order Entry Enemy Lines, which he conceived as one giant reference to the balls-awful Callista Trilogy from the 90s. No idea what motivated that creative decision.

But even as dumb as he is, he's only a minor blemish on an otherwise great book. Enemy Lines has a wealth of excellent character moments, including a fantastic scene of Mara Jade carrying a load of guilt and uncertainty following the birth of her son, where she contemplates whether or not she--a former assassin with decades of blood on her hands--deserves to be a mother. There's also a great subplot where major villain Tsavong Lah uncovers an insurrection from within the Vong Ranks, combatting propagandistic efforts to dethrone him after it a recent humiliating injury raises doubts about whether or not he's still "favored by the Gods"....a subplot that's coupled nicely with another in which he calls upon his aging warrior father to help him strategize around the movements of his wily Jedi enemies. My favorite scene in the whole book, however, is actually the fight with Lord Nyax himself...where one of my favorite EU characters, Tahiri, shows the first sign of real strength and recovery since the tragic loss of the boy she loved in a previous book.

See? This is the kind of thing that helped the EU thrive; even when the authors didn't always have the best ideas, they were often counterbalanced by a monsoon of creative net positives that were often super=rewarding for longtime readers. Redeeming qualities like this are what helped the continuity endure for so long, because any creative misfires were often small enough that they could be neglected.

Important things like the consistency of the characters, the respect of the film lore, and the sincerity of the interpersonal drama were never compromised, and is why the saga of Luke's Jedi Order--in particular, the saga of the Solo Children--lasted over twenty years' worth of novels, and why newer fans like me can relish their superb quality, in spite of the odd creative mistep.

I'd argue it's closer to a 50/50 split. Even the best EU arcs tend to have some stupid shit, but at the same time, even the worst ones tend to have awesome shit. You have your Bakura arc, but then you also get your Dark Empire or Thrawn Trilogy.
See, I don't even know if I'd agree with that, because if you really think about it, all of the examples of "bad" or "mediocre" novels that people routinely cite are works from the 90s Era, where the universe was still in its creative infancy, and Bantam still held the publishing license. That creative Wild West of Imperial kindappings, superweapons, and often-conflicting characterizations/plotlines only lasted for the first 8 years of the Expanded Universe.

Once Del Rey took over the license in 1999, the consistency in quality smoothened out to the point where you really have to scrub the bottom of the barrel for "bad" books...and even those largely consist of forgettable one-offs like Approaching Storm, Rogue Planet, or Jedi Trial. During the 2000's, with Dark Horse at the top of their game, and Del Rey alternating between phenomenal Prequel tie-ins and expanding the post-Endor saga with epic story arcs like New Jedi Order and Legacy of the Force, I'd say Star Wars hit its creative and narrative apex. You weren't starved for quality at all, and had to squint to find any examples of poorly-written material.

Not to mention that a lot of the zanier stories of the early EU like Truce at Bakura or Dark Fleet Crisis had the gross disadvantage of coming out at a time when the Prequel Trilogy was years away, and the better nuances of the Force, the Clone Wars, and the Jedi Order hadn't been explored yet.
The Disney Era of novels and comics don't have that excuse...and in fact, even with all six films out, have managed to inflict worse damage to continuity in a scant 10 years than the EU did over its 22-year run (or 38, if you want to count early, proto-EU works like the Han Solo Adventures or the early Marvel comics from the 70s).
 
I'll defend the old EU until the bitter end. I don't care If "Most of it was crap." What it represented was a Limitless playground for writers and authors to be creative and implement their own ideas for Star Wars. That's freedom and Disney quite simply can't allow that.
Most of it is crap is better than all of it is crap, the Disney(tm) taste.
 
Most of it is crap is better than all of it is crap, the Disney(tm) taste.
I wouldn't say that. Most of it was average, some of it was good, some of it was crap, some of it was derivative, and some of it is really good.

In short, it's just like any other lore that's lasted for 40-something years. Just like Gundam, Warhammer, DC, Marvel, Transformers and GI Joe, there's times when the SWEU shined bright, and times when you'd sooner forget it exists. It mostly depends on which author is on which book, comic, or game, and whether or not they have it in them to be creative or smart.
 
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This is not a drill, Kiwis. Disney has officially dropped their Florida lawsuit, and have agreed to settle out of court...bringing their slapfight with the State of Florida--and Ron DeSantis--to a bitter end, and an embarrassing defeat.

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Hey man, I love Darksaber.
I mean, it's the best of the three books by a mile--funny how Kevin J. Anderson, the 90s author that seemingly everyone bags on within the EU Readerbase, turned in arguably the most comprehensive novel in the Callista Trilogy.

Tbh, I don't think Anderson gets enough credit for his EU contributions. For all the weaksauce books he writes, he also wrote some superb short stories for Tales of Mos Eisley Cantina and Tales of the Bounty Hunters, as well as writing all of the Naga Sadow/Ludo Kresh-related lore for Tales of the Jedi, and writing the Young Jedi Knight series with his wife...a book series so popular, mind you, that it almost became a live-action TV series back in the 90s.
 

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if you want to count early, proto-EU works like the Han Solo Adventures
And you should, because Han Solo/Lando Calrissian Adventures are both really fun books, despite the very weird shit Lando gets up to.

Tbh, I don't think Anderson gets enough credit for his EU contributions.
The passage from Dark Apprentice(?) where the SUN CRUSHER is used against Carida is spectacular writing and it's a shame the rest of the book isn't written that way.
 
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I'm sad, I had hoped in a decade we'd have at least 5-10 books that were worth looking at but it seems like there isn't, and if there is the bad is so miserably horrible nobody with half a brain would sift through the shit to find them.
If they wanted to even attempt to salvage this franchise the only logical thing to do is go full Legacy mode and set new stories 100-250 years after ROTJ. After the sequel trilogy dropped the ball and barely made a cultural impact and Disney is too scared to move beyond the OT now this would be the best way they could save face yet somehow make Star Wars decent again. Of course with how pozzed modern day Sci Fi authors are this wouldn't have a chance in hell but at least there would be a possibility here.
 
And you should, because Han Solo/Lando Calrissian Adventures are both really fun books, despite the very weird shit Lando gets up to.
Indeed. The closest to true pulp novellas that Star Wars ever received to an official capacity, even moreso than pulp imitators like Stover's Shadows of Mindor, due to achieving a greater sense of authenticity.

The Han Solo Adventures are also mandatory reading since characters and concepts from those books come back in the Hero's Trial duology set during New Jedi Order, since author James Luceno was a close friend and peer to Adventures author Brian Daley (it was something of a tribute to the latter, since he'd recently passed away prior to Hero's Trial publication).

The Lando Adventures author L. Neil Smith (who is also sadly no longer with us) was also EXTREMELY based when it came to the subject of the Expanded Universe and Disney decanonizing it, stating when asked about it:

"[My wife] and I didn’t know that and we don’t give a rat’s ass. Considerations like that are decided by literary history, not by faceless, unscrupulous, dull-witted corporate managers. I was the world’s greatest fan of Walter Elias Disney himself growing up, and have nothing but uttermost contempt for his profoundly unworthy successors."
Quite a stark contrast to the Disney Water-Boy that Timothy Zahn has turned into.

The passage from Dark Apprentice(?) where the SUN CRUSHER is used against Carida is spectacular writing and it's a shame the rest of the book isn't written that way.
Luke especially isn't written all that intelligently in this book--I remember Michael Stackpole lampooning some of his behavior through Corran Horn in his retelling of the events in I, Jedi.

I'll tell you what part of Jedi Academy has aged SUPER well, though...the scenes of Jaina and Jacen as toddler children. The moments of them having family time with Han and Leia, and a particularly adorable scene of them playing in the snow (and turning C-3PO into a makeshift snowman), make for a really heartwarming read.

That's something I'll always be grateful for: the EU went out of its way to show the Solos as a real family, and actually earned any narrative tragedy that befell them in later books like NJO or LOTF, by getting us to care about them as a family unit first.
 
you know I personally really love the weird pulp sci-fi fantasy of the early EU. the marvel comics and the Han & Lando books, splinter of the mind's eye, shit like that.

there's just not much else like any of it. its a weird window into what star wars might have been. it has more in common with shit like Barbarella or Starlin's Adam Warlock or something than Star Wars as it became. Most of it is pretty weird in retrospect with the grander expanded universe and movies that followed it, but I still like it a lot.

I always hoped if we got some more obi wan between 3/4 it would have leaned heavily into him being the crazy old wizard everybody thought was nuts in more of the pulp archetype he began as than what he eventually became.

really I just wish we would have gotten more weird pulp-y star wars in general. I think a cool move would have been to have an infinities sub imprint from dark horse (or even del ray if people wanted to write novels) to do all kinds of out there weird shit from the starting point of only the original film or trilogy existed and leaned heavily into it's more out there roots.
 
I wouldn't say that. Most of it was average, some of it was good, some of it was crap, some of it was derivative, and some of it is really good.

In short, it's just like any other lore that's lasted for 40-something years. Just like Gundam, Warhammer, DC, Marvel, Transformers and GI Joe, there's times when the SWEU shined bright, and times when you'd sooner forget it exists. It mostly depends on which author is on which book, comic, or game, and whether or not they have it in them to be creative or smart.

Eh it had a lot of stinkers. But that's what happens if you shit out a ton of books with little to no quality control, it is happening to 40k now too.

Disney however only produces fart wedding qualified stinkers. Could the old eu been better? For sure. Is it still good enough to beat Disney? Yeah but that is a bar CWC could clear....
 
I'm not a Bad Batch watcher so forgive my lateness but apparently Ventress was like actually, functionally dead before now? Then Filoni waved his magic wand around and made her alive again because he cannot part with his OCs.
 
I'm not a Bad Batch watcher so forgive my lateness but apparently Ventress was like actually, functionally dead before now? Then Filoni waved his magic wand around and made her alive again because he cannot part with his OCs.
Apparently she was dead in a book (I didn't read it), then she came back for the show and they didn't even bother to explain it. Just implied it was Night Sisters magic but didn't give a concrete reason as to why. God they're shit storytellers.
 
I'm not a Bad Batch watcher so forgive my lateness but apparently Ventress was like actually, functionally dead before now? Then Filoni waved his magic wand around and made her alive again because he cannot part with his OCs.
Ventress wasn't his creation, but an invention of the 2003 CW show. Filoni just latched on to her and made her a mainstay in the TCW show. Disney canon officially killed her off in the Dark Disciple novel.

But once again, Filoni only cares about his own canon. He couldn't give less of a crap about the canon of other SW works. His OCs have to be the center of the universe, to the point where the dead come back to life to hang with them. Just like how in Rebels, Thrawn, Tarkin, and Vader all were summoned to deal with some rat's-ass rebellion in a backwater world like Lothal, because Filoni's OC rebels are somehow THAT good. Instead of the local Imperials just doing the sensible option and opening up the Bounty Hunter Yellow Pages so that Bossk and Boba Fett can put Phoenix Squad six feet under. Or just getting a sniper unit to take them down while they're fighting the local Imp garrison. I'm pretty sure both options would've been viable before calling in the Emperor's enforcer, best admiral AND his best friend to deal with a small band of Scooby Doo-style ''heroes''.

Eh it had a lot of stinkers. But that's what happens if you shit out a ton of books with little to no quality control, it is happening to 40k now too.
Mostly it's some of the wackier stuff that dealt with concepts that were way too complex for the authors to actually carry out properly. But the average works were decent-to-good.

I mean, SW had its own Matt Ward with Karen Traviss, for instance. But her work was hardly seen as universally liked among EU authors. Hell, even when she wrote in LOTF how important the Mandalorians are, Troy Denning had them get annihilated rather easily by Jacen, and Jaina's Mandalorian training didn't matter for shit against Jacen. So even her own co-workers thought her work was a pile of shit, to the point where in the same fucking book series, her established plot points get demolished by other authors.
 
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I recall that book line and the clusterfuck of retcons and inconsistencies were. It was Horus Heresy before Horus Heresy.

Is Doctor Disaster a youtuber that copies Doomcock, or a Doomcock more based sock?
 
I recall that book line and the clusterfuck of retcons and inconsistencies were. It was Horus Heresy before Horus Heresy.
That was the breaking point for some readers. It's why a lot of book fans were initially OK with the canon wipe Disney proposed, whereas the fans of the comics and video games were less enthusiastic about the canon wipe.
 
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