Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Kane Lives]

Honestly I suspect Russia considers sea battles wholly unnecessary. Any battles involving people will be fought on land, and anything on the black sea will be sniped by high speed drones. Ships are only needed if Russia ever plans to bring wars to anyone else's shores, so them being completely uninterested is evidence they don't plan to invade other countries. At most they will use satellites and high speed missiles to detect American weapon sites and snipe them from the other side of the world.

Even if you're not planning to project power across the sea, ports (deep water ones especially) remain an invaluable thing for logistics and economy reasons. You need a navy to reasonably keep said ports safe and despite all the fanfare about hypersonic missiles, they do not replace the need for a navy.

 

[Kuritan Deplorable]

Watching videos of their new service rifles keyholing at something like ten or twenty feet is almost painful.

Which is genuinely impressive. Their special snowflake cartridge has always been suspected to be shit, but they got away with blaming it on their old bullpup service rifle. Now that they've ditched that and cloned the 416, they have no excuse - Either they fucked up copying a rifle family that's been cloned and copied and improved on publicly for over sixty years, or their "Flatter, faster, better penetrating" special snowflake is just completely unserviceable. And frankly, I don't see how you could fuck up copying the basic AR pattern when the company that makes this new one, Norinco, already makes AR clones, and has been for like forty years. They're not great, but they can and will shoot straight.

At least the AK12 and the new 6.8 US weapons still shoot straight at effective combat ranges. Maybe this is why China's border skirmishes with India keep being carried out with improvised clubs and shit, they work better.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

Which is genuinely impressive. Their special snowflake cartridge has always been suspected to be shit, but they got away with blaming it on their old bullpup service rifle. Now that they've ditched that and cloned the 416, they have no excuse - Either they fucked up copying a rifle family that's been cloned and copied and improved on publicly for over sixty years, or their "Flatter, faster, better penetrating" special snowflake is just completely unserviceable. And frankly, I don't see how you could fuck up copying the basic AR pattern when the company that makes this new one, Norinco, already makes AR clones, and has been for like forty years. They're not great, but they can and will shoot straight.

At least the AK12 and the new 6.8 US weapons still shoot straight at effective combat ranges. Maybe this is why China's border skirmishes with India keep being carried out with improvised clubs and shit, they work better.

I suppose it's also possible that the barrels were made out of Chinesium and were already shot out. Which is not great either, since you may have rounds that are fine, but guns that just randomly suck because someone somewhere was skimming off the top. I would assume we've gotten 5.8mm to run ballistics on it, but I've not seen much of anything about it.

 

[Kane Lives]

I suppose it's also possible that the barrels were made out of Chinesium and were already shot out. Which is not great either, since you may have rounds that are fine, but guns that just randomly suck because someone somewhere was skimming off the top. I would assume we've gotten 5.8mm to run ballistics on it, but I've not seen much of anything about it.

Lol I absolutely have no doubt someone had been cheaping out. Story of Chinese military, really, since antiquity. Depending on how serious Xi/CCP is on wanting their military to be actually effective though, that might be fatal for everyone involved.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

Lol I absolutely have no doubt someone had been cheaping out. Story of Chinese military, really, since antiquity. Depending on how serious Xi/CCP is on wanting their military to be actually effective though, that might be fatal for everyone involved.

This is one of the reasons I respect Russia, their stuff works. There may be problems here and there, but nothing out of the ordinary. Except for their surface navy, poor Kuznetsov, but the surface navy just seems to be cursed. Do very well with subs, typically. On paper China's capable, but I suppose as long as no one tries to find out if they're really an 800 pound gorilla but treats them as if they may be, they're happy enough.

 

[Betonhaus]

Lol I absolutely have no doubt someone had been cheaping out. Story of Chinese military, really, since antiquity. Depending on how serious Xi/CCP is on wanting their military to be actually effective though, that might be fatal for everyone involved.

If the CCP decides to get serious, how long would it take for their weapons to get up to spec once heads start rolling?

 

[Slur Generator]

Serious question: what use is NATO to the United States now, beyond as a permanent reminder and symbol of the GAE, and a way to keep Europe in the American orbit? In fact, what does Europe offer that the continental US cannot provide, aside from pseudo intellectual faggotry?

NATO exists because Europe has been vasalised. It keeps them weak and subservient to the US.
NATO countries dont have control of their military, of their external affairs, their mass media, the politicians are bought and paid by the US and the corporations are just global corporations with no allegiance to their states.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

Found a video of just the section of the keyholing. I think it was from broadcast of some "elite" all female SWAT unit in Beijing or something.

Imagine broadcasting that. I'm sure it's for internal use and most Chinamen don't know what keyholing is, but still.

 

[Vesperus]

Between the requirements for stealth, rough airfields, and ground support (including anti-tank weaponry) I've just realized there is only one aircraft suitable for the Ukraine:

The Mk XVIII De Havilland Mosquito (the one with the 6lb cannon).
How do we make this happen?

 

[Abraham Lincoln]

Found a video of just the section of the keyholing. I think it was from broadcast of some "elite" all female SWAT unit in Beijing or something.
View attachment 5881915

Imagine broadcasting that. I'm sure it's for internal use and most Chinamen don't know what keyholing is, but still.

Which is genuinely impressive. Their special snowflake cartridge has always been suspected to be shit, but they got away with blaming it on their old bullpup service rifle. Now that they've ditched that and cloned the 416, they have no excuse - Either they fucked up copying a rifle family that's been cloned and copied and improved on publicly for over sixty years, or their "Flatter, faster, better penetrating" special snowflake is just completely unserviceable. And frankly, I don't see how you could fuck up copying the basic AR pattern when the company that makes this new one, Norinco, already makes AR clones, and has been for like forty years. They're not great, but they can and will shoot straight.

At least the AK12 and the new 6.8 US weapons still shoot straight at effective combat ranges. Maybe this is why China's border skirmishes with India keep being carried out with improvised clubs and shit, they work better.

I read somewhere that those bullets were not FMJs but rubber bullets.

Though if the chinks have some brains, they probably working on a better rifle than what they have right now.

 

[Fapcop]

Found a video of just the section of the keyholing. I think it was from broadcast of some "elite" all female SWAT unit in Beijing or something.
View attachment 5881915

Imagine broadcasting that. I'm sure it's for internal use and most Chinamen don't know what keyholing is, but still.

Supposedly those videos show rubber bullets being fired at low pressure, which is why that happens.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=132&v=n5WoYo24QVU&feature=youtu.be

I mean… The Chinks have decades of experience making firearms. I think they can figure out how to make a rifle and bullet that works.

 

[Whoopsie Daisy]

You can have the best military equipment in the world, but if your generals are fucking retarded and know shit-all about strategy, it doesn't matter for spit.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

Supposedly those videos show rubber bullets being fired at low pressure, which is why that happens.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=132&v=n5WoYo24QVU&feature=youtu.be

I mean… The Chinks have decades of experience making firearms. I think they can figure out how to make a rifle and bullet that works.

I don't doubt their ability to make weapons that work, I doubt their suppliers ability to make equipment consistently and not cut corners. They've had some pretty notable fuck ups because of it, one of their carriers having serious enough issues to have to go back after they first launched it because of corruption at the dock yard. It's pretty clear they'd used actual bullets on the targets before, the wall behind it looks a bit chewed up. It's internal propaganda though, like most Chinese propaganda, so may have just figured it didn't matter.

That and their "China Numba One" types makes it hard to take their statements at face value. Like I said, they may very well be the 800 pound gorilla, I don't think anyone, including China themselves, really wants to find out. Which works in their favor. It's not a bad strategy, as I've said before I think they want political unification with Taiwan, not a military invasion, to keep the industry there intact, their "saber rattling" about it is for internal purposes, and the recent escalations is because our state department, the mongrel idiots that they are, started taking it seriously. I recall China's reaction seeming initially surprised even.

China doesn't have a history of being a particularly effective military power, but they take it seriously enough.

 

[OutInTheRain]

Speaking of radar, how good is infra-red at detecting planes? Can it be used at all? Do modern missiles heatseek or is that just a video game autism with no real life basis?

IR missiles are a thing, but rarely used. The sidewinder is the missile of choice and what air battles are based around. The missile uses the jets own radar until it has it's own radar lock.

My nigger, if stealth is as easy to defeat as you're suggesting, Russia, China, Europe, England, Japan and the United States wouldn't be spending billions developing the next generation of stealth planes.

In air to air engagements stealth is used to change the distance that a radar lock happens at. Say it was 80 miles and you could get a targeting lock and fire. With a target that has stealth tech you now need to be within 50 miles. Which is why everyone is developing it. How it stacks up against a full ground based radar and ISR suite, I have no idea. The F-35 is still a very capable aircraft, it just has to contend with an enemy who is making hundreds of shitty copies of it.

 

[Susanna]

It's pretty clear they'd used actual bullets on the targets before, the wall behind it looks a bit chewed up.

Pretty sure that would still happen with rubber bullets.

I don't doubt their ability to make weapons that work, I doubt their suppliers ability to make equipment consistently and not cut corners.

Very bad idea. China doesn’t joke around with corruption in government supply lines. Selling falsely certified aluminium to a Russian corporation? Not a huge deal, business dissolved and immediately reformed. Do the same to the government? Not good.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

Very bad idea. China doesn’t joke around with corruption in government supply lines. Selling falsely certified aluminium to a Russian corporation? Not a huge deal, business dissolved and immediately reformed. Do the same to the government? Not good.

No, it's not particularly smart, but it happened on the level of an aircraft carrier. I'm sure the guy in charge did not enjoy what was left of his life and rightly so.

 

[Kane Lives]

If the CCP decides to get serious, how long would it take for their weapons to get up to spec once heads start rolling?

Never. Understand, the problem is not that they cannot make it, nor that they cannot punish slackers and do-nothing. The problem is entirely cultural, because of the chinese propensity to jew one another and outsiders. At best, they can whip the proles into shape so that they get decent weapons on par with the West, but I don't think they'll ever acquire the quality edge.

 

[Fapcop]

IR missiles are a thing, but rarely used. The sidewinder is the missile of choice and what air battles are based around. The missile uses the jets own radar until it has it's own radar lock.

Eh… Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that the Sidewinder is an IR missile?!

(Based on German WW2 developments if I’m not mistaken.)

In air to air engagements stealth is used to change the distance that a radar lock happens at. Say it was 80 miles and you could get a targeting lock and fire. With a target that has stealth tech you now need to be within 50 miles. Which is why everyone is developing it. How it stacks up against a full ground based radar and ISR suite, I have no idea. The F-35 is still a very capable aircraft, it just has to contend with an enemy who is making hundreds of shitty copies of it.

Well it’s complicated and depends on the kind of radar and the direction.

This illustration shows the crosssection of the F35 from different bands and directions.

Green means very low radar crosssection, yellow means lower crosssection, and red… Well, you get the point.



In some respects (Like if you have air supremacy and the luxury of planning a mission exactly as you want) the F35 is quite capable.

In other respects: Such as close up dogfights it’s less capable than its predecessors.

The F35 is limited by the fact that too many compromises were made during development. It had to do everything and as consequence is the master of little.

And notably, it’s still isn’t 100% combat ready after all these years, and the planes ready time (as in: How much time is spent flying, and how much time is spent getting repairs) is lower than 4G planes.

Never. Understand, the problem is not that they cannot make it, nor that they cannot punish slackers and do-nothing. The problem is entirely cultural, because of the chinese propensity to jew one another and outsiders. At best, they can whip the proles into shape so that they get decent weapons on par with the West, but I don't think they'll ever acquire the quality edge.

I don’t know man… That’s the kind of stuff they used to say in the 80ies and 90ies.

“Yeah sure, the chinks are good at making cheap crap and copying! But they’ll never surpass Japan or the US in actual high tech!”

And a few decades later, and it turns out that they actually do make high tech stuff pretty well: From engines to cellphones to computers, to basically anything.
You

 

[Male Idiot]

Even if the F35 is good, it does take a long ass maintenance and costs a lot.

So I would think that if you ised it, you would need to win quick, or get swamped by less good but still okay copies? Or did I misss something autistically?

 

[Fapcop]

No, it's not particularly smart, but it happened on the level of an aircraft carrier. I'm sure the guy in charge did not enjoy what was left of his life and rightly so.

Which aircraft carrier are you talking about specifically?

Also: While corruption certainly is a problem in China, it should kinda be pointed out that the Chinks haven’t had a naval tradition for centuries, and it’s only these past decades that they’ve started to built a fleet.

They’ve gone from making some rinky dink coastal corvettes to building ballistic submarines and aircraft carriers, that’s an achievement in its own right.

And it’s not like the US and UK haven’t had their own carrier related problems.

The limeys can barely keep their two carriers afloat, and the construction of the latest US carrier has been a clusterfuck in its own right.

BTW: Speaking of corruption. Can we take a moment to appreciate that our ever competent press saw reports from China using the colloquial “add water” (meaning: Replacing an expensive component with a cheaper component), Google translated it, and got to the conclusion that:”Why gosh darn it! Those dumb chinks actually replaced the rocket fuel in missiles with water!”

Even if the F35 is good, it does take a long ass maintenance and costs a lot.

So I would think that if you ised it, you would need to win quick, or get swamped by less good but still okay copies? Or did I misss something autistically?

Nah you’re right on.

The thing is, the F35 will do just fine if you’re bombing some shithole country with old fighters and decades old SAM’s.

It wasn’t created as an über top of the line plane. (That’s what it became in the sales brochures and propaganda afterwards.) It was designed as a cheap (LMAO!) Jack of all trades, master of none-kinda plane.

If you send F35’s up against newer Russian or Chinese planes with a numerical advantage, or against countries with a proper area denial system (The S300 or S400 has a range of hundreds of kilometers) it’ll have less of a great time.

Also don’t forget: The F35 has room for 2 AA missiles in its internal bay. (Could be wrong, it may be four depending on the type.)

So if it’s up against two planes with four missiles each (or more!) it’s already at a disadvantage.

It can carry missiles externally, but then loses much of its “stealth”.


TLDR: Is it a good plane? For some things sure. For many things not so much.

It’s way overpriced though, and the qualitative difference you get from it vs cheaper older fighters is nowhere near worth the cost.


IN OTHER NEWS:


Lol! The Ukrainians are seriously threatening with ruining NATO’s anniversary bash with their begging.