Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Slovakia elected Peter Pellegrini as president "pro Russian" guy. I would say he is someone with realistic point of view. And does not go with line Putin=Hitler that is pretty much required in EU right now.
As you can expect most of NAFO , redditors and chikenhawks on Czech and Slovak internet are having meltdown right now.
 
Plus, China's going to be invading Taiwan, not Ukraine, with a nonzero risk that the USA will intervene directly to aid Taiwan. The technology gap between Taiwan and Ukraine is immense. To have a chance of this not being a bloodbath, China needs sufficiently many weapons that are sufficiently technologically advanced that the US is guaranteed to stay out, bribe or no bribe.

The Pentagon's new plan to convert the entire Marine Corps into a mobile island hopping defensive rocket force rather than be the general 24 hour global response force everyone knows is good evidence of plans to intervene. There are already preparations underway in the Philippines. Going to come down to who the next President is and if America decides to provoke an incident with China before hand to dictate the when and where since the US cannot move its assets fast enough if China plans to overwhelm the island that is only 100 miles away.

Landing will be very costly and glowies will blow up the chip fabs. Whether that actually hurts America's high-tech military, new AI economy and a possible AI enhanced military more than it hurts China over the long term looks more and more like a win/win scenario for China if things stay conventional.
 
Landing will be very costly and glowies will blow up the chip fabs. Whether that actually hurts America's high-tech military, new AI economy and a possible AI enhanced military more than it hurts China over the long term looks more and more like a win/win scenario for China if things stay conventional.

Don't forget that DEI mandates are paralyzing CHIPS Act construction here in the USA. The elites really are retards who really did drink their own Kool-Aid on immigration and diversity. They aren't secretly all super-redpilled race realists who happen to be evil, with a secret plan to ruin everything so they can retreat to a walled techno-paradise. They unironically think cutting-edge chip foundries can be operated by 80-IQ third worlders.
 
The Pentagon's new plan to convert the entire Marine Corps into a mobile island hopping defensive rocket force rather than be the general 24 hour global response force everyone knows is good evidence of plans to intervene. There are already preparations underway in the Philippines. Going to come down to who the next President is and if America decides to provoke an incident with China before hand to dictate the when and where since the US cannot move its assets fast enough if China plans to overwhelm the island that is only 100 miles away.
Meh… The US isn’t going to do shit. Except protest a lot.

Let’s start with the fact that One China has been American policy for decades, occasional congress spergouts aside. The US will intervene in a Chinese domestic matter?

The US doesn’t have the capabilities either. Sure America can send a carrier group (that will get sunk) and can send some ships, but the US doesn’t have the capability to send out the kind of resources necessary here: Tens of thousands of soldiers, thousands of vehicles on a quick enough basis.

The US can beat shithole countries (sometimes!) but not China.

Whatever troops they will send, will be there as a retarded tripwire force. While the Pentagon hopes and prays that their bluff won’t be called.


Landing will be very costly and glowies will blow up the chip fabs. Whether that actually hurts America's high-tech military, new AI economy and a possible AI enhanced military more than it hurts China over the long term looks more and more like a win/win scenario for China if things stay conventional.
Another good reason why US won’t go to war over Taiwan. The risks and costs are just too high.

There are no shortage of American bases nearby that the Chinese can strike. Plus US is paying something like a trillion dollars every year just to service the debt that is growing.

If all of Taiwan and the chip fabs will be razed to the ground, it’ll hurt China, but they’ll survive. They trade with a lot of countries and have their own fabs on the mainland.

For the US though? That would be such a financial disaster they wouldn’t want to risk it.

No, the Taliban won because AK-47s are technological marvels that can defeat any American weapons systems, Fapcop said so. Imagine how badly Operation Desert Storm would have gone if only Saddam Hussein's forces had the mighty AK pattern rifle! Imagine how badly the Afghans would have lost if the USSR had invaded instead!
Welp, looks like someone is still assmad about having been booted from Afghanistan by a bunch of farmers!

I am sorry your trillion dollar hardware failed you. You may want to consider the point that you’ve been lied to, and all your wunderwaffle actually isn’t all that and doesn’t win wars.
Volume of production isn't the Chinese problem, it's design & build quality, and in China, those kinds of problems are concealed from superiors until it's too late.
Please do tell: What practical experience do you have with Chinese military hardware?

What reason do you have to believe that there is a major qualitative difference, besides the fact that Task and Purpose told you so?

And I'm not sure that's the right lesson to take from this war. Russia's lack of any stealth capabilities has significantly limited where their aircraft can operate (there are rumors the SU-57 has been deployed a few times and performed well, but I think Russia has fewer than a dozen).
You seem to misunderstand what “stealth” is.
There is no stealth system in the world that can totally negate an effective area denial system. An F35 or F22 would have exactly the same problems with flying where ever they please, given the presence of an effective AA/A2-AD.

American ATGMs have knocked out a lot of Russian armor.
And Russian ATGMs have taken out Western tanks. We’re not seeing the result of wunderwaffle here, but the result of technological development and the battle space.

The ATGM turned out to be a gamechanger already in the 73 war, and today we have a situation where 24-7 battlefield awareness through drones, means the end of massed tank assaults and maneuver warfare as we knew it in WW2.
American satellites have enabled to the destruction of a couple very expensive warships.
You mean a couple of decades old, Polish ships. In a land war sinking or damaging some ships is kinda pointless.

In a naval war in the pacific against China, the US won’t be up against some corvettes and obsolete Polish ships, and China have their own, quite impressive satellite capabilities.

The HIMARS has proven to be a very effective weapon.

Yea, rocket artillery has shown itself to be quite effective indeed. Ironically it’s also one of the areas where Western armies have a big deficit compared to Russia, China or even North Korea.
Plus, China's going to be invading Taiwan, not Ukraine, with a nonzero risk that the USA will intervene directly to aid Taiwan. The technology gap between Taiwan and Ukraine is immense. To have a chance of this not being a bloodbath, China needs sufficiently many weapons that are sufficiently technologically advanced that the US is guaranteed to stay out, bribe or no bribe.
You’re right about China getting Taiwan back. They’ll prefer to do it peacefully, but if that’s not an option they’ll do it through military means.

And US won’t do a thing about it. Except for leaving some tripwire troops and hoping the Chinks won’t call their bluff.

Why? Because America lacks the capability to win a war here and because the risks are far too high compared to the rewards.
 
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Welp, what do you know…

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America’s ever so wise leaders have managed to drive Russia and China into an ever closer permanent partnership. Something that was wholly preventable and has created a seriously powerful alliance and counterweight.

I seem to recall that Biden a few years ago tried to make Putin sign up on an alliance of sorts against China.

That was unlikely to ever happen.

Putin doesn’t trust the west and has a close relationship with Xi. (They stay at each others places sometimes for vacation. I also seem to recall a report about the two making pancakes together, which sounds kinda adorable lol!).

But Russia could at least have been induced to have a more neutral role vis-a-vis China, if their national and security interests in Ukraine had been taken seriously.

Instead we get Russian ingenuity, military power and resources join forces with Chinas.

We in the west are truly being led by pantshitting retards.

But hey… At least the trannies are thriving!


EDIT: Found it!

“Vlad, could you pass me the caviar please?”


That shrug that Putin makes to Xi when they get the Vodka is really funny.

“Sorry, I know it’s noon but… Come on buddy, we gotta do this!”
The US is continuing to make itself an existential crisis for countless nations, and I still think if this continues we're going to see some kind of counter NATO being implemented.
 
It’s an over trillion dollar boondoggle that still isn’t ready, never lived up to its goals and is such a failure that the air force is now considering “upgraded” versions of 4gen fighters.

And the best part is: In combat against a competent peer, it’s likely to get shot down before ever seeing another plane.

Cheap, remote controlled drones are likely the future of air combat anyways.

EDIT: TAXPAYERS BEWARE!
https://www.pogo.org/analysis/has-the-pentagon-learned-from-the-f-35-debacle

Om sorry but POGO is run and staffed by fucking retards. The same ones who said the Tomahawk cruise missile, F-117, B-2, M1 tank and other new weapons of the 1980s were going to be complete disasters.

As for the "$1 trillion " bullshit, that's because the DoD was estimating the total program cost of the F-35 including maintenance, production and R&D out until 2050 or so.... In 2003. Aka making up numbers 50 years in the future.

I believe some other poster said it before me.

But why didn't they do with a collapsible stock and a 20 inch barrel since it would have solved the size and weight problem.

Because that wouldn't have gotten Mark Milley a consulting gig ....

No, the Taliban won because AK-47s are technological marvels that can defeat any American weapons systems, Fapcop said so. Imagine how badly Operation Desert Storm would have gone if only Saddam Hussein's forces had the mighty AK pattern rifle! Imagine how badly the Afghans would have lost if the USSR had invaded instead!


Volume of production isn't the Chinese problem, it's design & build quality, and in China, those kinds of problems are concealed from superiors until it's too late. And I'm not sure that's the right lesson to take from this war. Russia's lack of any stealth capabilities has significantly limited where their aircraft can operate (there are rumors the SU-57 has been deployed a few times and performed well, but I think Russia has fewer than a dozen). American ATGMs have knocked out a lot of Russian armor. American satellites have enabled to the destruction of a couple very expensive warships. The HIMARS has proven to be a very effective weapon.

Plus, China's going to be invading Taiwan, not Ukraine, with a nonzero risk that the USA will intervene directly to aid Taiwan. The technology gap between Taiwan and Ukraine is immense. To have a chance of this not being a bloodbath, China needs sufficiently many weapons that are sufficiently technologically advanced that the US is guaranteed to stay out, bribe or no bribe.
About the AK, lol correct. The M-16/4 pattern of rifle has been one of the most successful small arms for the past 50 years. The M-16 was "fixed" with the A1 in 1967/68.

Small arms, especially assault rifles ans machine guns, have essentially stopped having major changes/developments beyond accessory mounting systems and optics for 40+ years at this point.

Glock carried the semi automatic pistol into the 21st century after John Browning carried it into the 20th century (and I'm not even a Glock fan)

Chinese military equipment is generally seen as being about 10 years behind the newest Western systems but that gap is shrinking and Chinese small arms, AFVs, helicopters, drones and most aircraft are seen as being essentially equivalent at this point.

The USA is considered superior in terms of Naval training, attack subs, and CBG operations vs the Chinese Navy.

The biggest advantage the West has (USA) is ISR and SIGINT. As we all know.... Knowing is half the battle.


Landing will be very costly and glowies will blow up the chip fabs. Whether that actually hurts America's high-tech military, new AI economy and a possible AI enhanced military more than it hurts China over the long term looks more and more like a win/win scenario for China if things stay conventional.

Uhh no. China is under sanctions so they'll be unable to replace/clone the equipment in the Taiwanese chip fabs for a solid decade.

Also, war with Taiwan will be costly if it drags out and who knows how many casualties modern Chinese people will put up with.

If all of Taiwan and the chip fabs will be razed to the ground, it’ll hurt China, but they’ll survive. They trade with a lot of countries and have their own fabs on the mainland.

ASML announced today that they'll be slowing down or cutting off maintenance contacts with Chinese firms. This means that ASML can cripple fabs in China that cannot replace the parts that one Dutch company has a worldwide stranglehold on. Sure, China will eventually clone those parts but that takes time and money.

You may say "Ah ha, the Dutch wouldn't cripple ASML like that". Yes they would, especially as S. Korea and Japan are spinning up next gen chip fans that'll take capacity from Taiwan and mainland China and ASML is their sole source supplier.

Mass Microchip fabrication, especially sub 7nm, is EXTREMELY complex and is 100% reliant on Dutch machines and certain inputs from Japan.

The entire point of the CHIPS Act is to make 7nm and sub 7nm stuff in the USA while crippling the CCPs ability to make them for a solid decade, at which point they'll be obsolete and everyone else will be on 3nm or better. Thereby making Chinese tech products uncompetitive and their AI space a laggard.

This is also why Russia is targeting 32/28nm for complete domestication by 2027/28 as those generations of chips can be made in 100% Russian and Chinese equipment.




As for Russia, they're about to take Chasiv Yar and Ukraine has admitted they'll essentially run out of SAMs in 4 weeks of they don't get billions in refills.
 
As for Russia, they're about to take Chasiv Yar and Ukraine has admitted they'll essentially run out of SAMs in 4 weeks of they don't get billions in refills.
They going to run out of SAMs no matter what if the Russian military keeps with its air strategy of mass producing drones. I think it was actually one of the pro-nato posters who said that they probably need to go back to things like the M167 VADS, and that's probably right. SAMs just aren't a great answer to drones. Their odds of hitting are way too low and even if they do hit, chances are the juice doesn't justify the squeeze.
 
They going to run out of SAMs no matter what if the Russian military keeps with its air strategy of mass producing drones. I think it was actually one of the pro-nato posters who said that they probably need to go back to things like the M167 VADS, and that's probably right. SAMs just aren't a great answer to drones. Their odds of hitting are way too low and even if they do hit, chances are the juice doesn't justify the squeeze.

Don't worry, Zelenskyy is now begging for 25 Patriot batteries with 6-8 launchers each and 2400-3200 missiles which comes out to 1/6 of the total launchers and 1/3 of the total missiles produced in the last 48 years
 
Mass Microchip fabrication, especially sub 7nm, is EXTREMELY complex and is 100% reliant on Dutch machines and certain inputs from Japan.
And that doesn’t really matter.

You know where TSMC makes the vast majority of its profits?

Old nodes like 22nm, 40nm, etc.

Likewise, the vast majority of ICs are fabricated on those nodes.

Heck, the 5nm nodes are so expensive and the added benefit so small, that you’re already seeing CPUs that are made on different nodes: part of it is made on 5nm, part of it is made on 10nm. That’s something that will continue.

The Chinese already made their own 7nm chip, and the CHIP act isn’t crippling them.

(Conversely, it hasn’t exactly been a wholesale success in the US. I can’t recall if it was Samsung or TSMC who took a look at the CHIP act subsidies, looked at all the DEI and climate provisions, looked at the workforce available, and went “fuck it, we’re building our fab elsewhere! And went to Japan.)

IF the CHIP act will ever be a critical problem for China, they have their own countermeasures. Namely something like rare earth minerals where China basically has a monopoly. No rare earth minerals, no cellphones, no batteries, no ICs, period.

Om sorry but POGO is run and staffed by fucking retards. The same ones who said the Tomahawk cruise missile, F-117, B-2, M1 tank and other new weapons of the 1980s were going to be complete disasters.
POGO is hardly the only source of criticism of the F35 program. Even in the Pentagon it’s widely considered as a clusterfuck of procurement.

That the F35 is overpriced and has underdelivered is hardly controversial.
The biggest advantage the West has (USA) is ISR and SIGINT. As we all know.... Knowing is half the battle.
As of now anyways.

The Chinese have been launching a whole fucking fleet of spy satellites the last couple of years. Not sure if they’re on par, not sure if anyone knows, but they’re definitely catching up.

Raw SIGINT is one thing, but another matter entirely is how you use it. (And intelligence veterans have warned against intelligence overload and the ol’ not seeing the forests for the trees.) Israel supposedly has one of the best ELINT and SIGINT branches in the world, but that didn’t stop them from being caught with their pants down last year.
The M-16/4 pattern of rifle has been one of the most successful small arms for the past 50 years. The M-16 was "fixed" with the A1 in 1967/68.
The AK and AR platform are both excellent weapons. I’d venture to say that the AK has the practical edge, but they’re both excellent weapons.

They going to run out of SAMs no matter what if the Russian military keeps with its air strategy of mass producing drones. I think it was actually one of the pro-nato posters who said that they probably need to go back to things like the M167 VADS, and that's probably right. SAMs just aren't a great answer to drones. Their odds of hitting are way too low and even if they do hit, chances are the juice doesn't justify the squeeze.
I think they’ve basically given up on hitting the smaller Geranium style drones though.

Even with the Khinzal, it’s arguably a decent trade for Russia to pawn swap a million dollar patriot for a few hundred thousand dollar Khinzal.


Right now the Ukrops are in the unenviable position where they have to choose between moving their remaining batteries to the front, and possibly lose them, or leave them far from the front and let their troops take a thrashing.

Btw: Regarding the CHIPS act, here’s some
interesting stuff on how Intel may or may not survive. And hence the future of sub 7nm in the US. Unrelated but interesting.

 
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Uhh no. China is under sanctions so they'll be unable to replace/clone the equipment in the Taiwanese chip fabs for a solid decade.

Also, war with Taiwan will be costly if it drags out and who knows how many casualties modern Chinese people will put up with.
China is closer to manufacturing their own 7nm equipment than the USA is to just maintain their 14nm++++++++++ garbage, and the entire western tech sector relying on a single Dutch company is not very good strategy. Take out China’s fabs and terrorists are going to suddenly find lots of great opportunities to knock down western fabs. USA has already pledged that, should Taiwan be invaded, the fabs will be stripped and shipped off, and anything that can’t be moved in time will be blown up. Given the time frames around an invasion, that means anything that can’t be loaded onto a plane in about two hours will be destroyed. Which is basically the whole fab minus its staff and hard drives. Samsung is relatively harder to hit, but Intel are very vulnerable both in USA and Israel. It’s a very fragile industry and the USA has no way to protect it.

But just as USA doesn’t care if China has 7nm as long as they’re a few nodes behind (a claim I don’t believe, considering how they’ve said the same thing in increasingly frustrated tones since 40nm), China doesn’t care if they’re stuck on 7nm if the west can’t produce their 2nm stuff anyway.
(Conversely, it hasn’t exactly been a wholesale success in the US. I can’t recall if it was Samsung or TSMC who took a look at the CHIP act subsidies, looked at all the DEI and climate provisions, looked at the workforce available, and went “fuck it, we’re building our fab elsewhere! And went to Japan.)
It was literally all of them. Samsung, TSMC, and Intel. TSMC did build a facility, but the struggles they had just to get a building put up would be enough to fill a very enjoyable book, and that’s before they even tried hiring engineers and buying the equipment. Senator x REQUIRES that component y be produced in his dung farming state, and because he’s the controlling vote on the send another tank to Ukraine committee, his nonsense requirement for this one process of this one company got baked into actual law, and that was a thing that happened again each month. By contrast Japan and China are just happy to get the business.
Israel supposedly has one of the best ELINT and SIGINT branches in the world, but that didn’t stop them from being caught with their pants down last year.
They do. None of their neighbours could have assembled a force undetected. What the Palestinians did was organise in basements, in tents, and under tarps, in a very dense urban area.
 
They do. None of their neighbours could have assembled a force undetected. What the Palestinians did was organise in basements, in tents, and under tarps, in a very dense urban area.
True, but nobody can organize an army for a sneak attack these days.

The problem with Hamas was a wholescale failure of intelligence. IDF and Intel people on the ground DID see the preparations and tried to sound the alarm.

But it wasn’t taken seriously. Why? BecUse they put too much trust in their digital surveillance, had a “konceptcia” and most importantly: They have too much intelligence coming in that it can be hard to find the signal in the noise.
 
but Intel are very vulnerable both in USA and Israel

Uhh you think China will be sending in the Manchurian candidate to destroy US based fabs?

Samsung, Global foundries, TSMC and TI all also operate fabs in the USA in addition to Intel.

True, but nobody can organize an army for a sneak attack these days.

The problem with Hamas was a wholescale failure of intelligence. IDF and Intel people on the ground DID see the preparations and tried to sound the alarm.

But it wasn’t taken seriously. Why? BecUse they put too much trust in their digital surveillance, had a “konceptcia” and most importantly: They have too much intelligence coming in that it can be hard to find the signal in the noise.
Completely correct, they bought their own bullshit for a decade.
 
China is closer to manufacturing their own 7nm equipment than the USA is to just maintain their 14nm++++++++++ garbage

Intel moved on from 14nm in 2021. Granite Rapids & Sierra Forest are coming this year and will be on their 3nm node.

USA has already pledged that, should Taiwan be invaded, the fabs will be stripped and shipped off, and anything that can’t be moved in time will be blown up.

I think it's funny how anyone in Washington thinks this will work. You cannot move a process node. Sure, those lasers are $300m a pop, so you don't want China to blow them up, but sorting the yield issues out in a foundry are unique to that particular foundry.

if the west can’t produce their 2nm stuff anyway.

Arrow Lake was shown off in the flesh last year. It's already working, and now it's just about yields.

It was literally all of them. Samsung, TSMC, and Intel. TSMC did build a facility, but the struggles they had just to get a building put up would be enough to fill a very enjoyable book...

The #1 problem they ran into is the CHIPS act requires that the demographics of the foundry look like the demographics of the surrounding area, which means they have to hire blacks & Hispanics, who are completely incapable of that sort of work.

Also, Japan's getting back into the chip business. TSMC opened a fab in Kyushu earlier this year, and IBM's working with Rapidus to build another foundry. After Global Foundries screwed them over, probably a good idea.
 
Uhh you think China will be sending in the Manchurian candidate to destroy US based fabs?
Intel is very vulnerable, not just because a rando rocket may hit it, but also financially.

Their cash flow is shit, and they need major investment and customers. Otherwise it’s over.

Samsung, Global foundries, TSMC and TI all also operate fabs in the USA in addition to Intel.
Meh… Kinda, sorta but not really. Their most important fabs aren’t in the US. Samsung hovered up TI old teams and set up a whole gpu and cpu development hub, but that closed down and went to shit eventually.

The US isn’t really a place for manufacturing. For numerous reasons.

Good ol’ Steve Jobs wanted to build factories in America but had to drop it. It wasn’t wages that were the problem, it was everything else. Not enough engineers, not enough skilled labor, too much bureaucracy and permissions and inspections.

It’s even worse today with both the federal government and state governments dropping by to make sure that you have hired the prerequisite number of niggers, trannies, women and felons.
 
Uhh you think China will be sending in the Manchurian candidate to destroy US based fabs?
No, but I do think they could smuggle a few javelin from Ukraine into the country, or bribe some soldier into smuggling them out of a base in USA. Then they could recruit some Kaczinsky types to fire them at the fab from a private plane or something.
I’m not the type of intel worker that comes up with these plans, but I can still imagine a hundred ways to covertly make a fab explode. They’re sensitive equipment, even if you hit the wrong side of the building the vibrations can be enough to mess up a month’s worth of calibrations.
Intel moved on from 14nm in 2021. Granite Rapids & Sierra Forest are coming this year and will be on their 3nm node.
I know that. My point was, this is still very dependent on ASML, which any government so inclined could relatively easily shut down. USA is openly waging proxy war against Russia, including utter atrocities like the Crocus shootings, so Russia dropping a few hypersonics on a few warehouses, which could even be allowed a warning to evacuate the personnel because there is bugger all the euros can do about it anyway, is fucking nothing by comparison. If ASML cuts China off completely, China’s incentive shifts from “stay on ASML’s good side” to “deny access to the west”. Suddenly the west is a lot worse off than China is. China is slow to anger, and the west abuses this relentlessly, but you shouldn’t mistake that for weakness.
 
“Yeah sure, the chinks are good at making cheap crap and copying! But they’ll never surpass Japan or the US in actual high tech!”

And a few decades later, and it turns out that they actually do make high tech stuff pretty well: From engines to cellphones to computers, to basically anything.
In retrospect, that was a pretty stupid assumption. It's not like we were dealing with African bushmen and Indians. Was everyone just being racist when they said that?
 
In retrospect, that was a pretty stupid assumption. It's not like we were dealing with African bushmen and Indians. Was everyone just being racist when they said that?
Unironically yes. The weakness of the American Right in particular is their absolute arrogance when it comes to East Asia.
 
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