David Steel / LazerPig / Ricewynd / Malquistion - Pathological Liar, Reddit Historian, Femboy Thirster, and Vore Connoisseur

[Mr.Bucket]

I still think the US military were fools to not adopt the XM8 as a new light tank.

Maybe back in the day but not now. Now it's still the same vehicle from the like 80's with a bunch of modern stuff bolted into place. So there's very little crew room and ergonomics took a massive hit. It's one of the problems the Abrams is having now but in a much smaller, less roomier package. You can only bolt so much new stuff into a several decade old design. The Chieftain has several good videos on the M10 program and its competitors including one of the dudes from the future vehicles department.

 

[The Foxtrot]

Maybe back in the day but not now. Now it's still the same vehicle from the like 80's with a bunch of modern stuff bolted into place. So there's very little crew room and ergonomics took a massive hit. It's one of the problems the Abrams is having now but in a much smaller, less roomier package. You can only bolt so much new stuff into a several decade old design. The Chieftain has several good videos on the M10 program and its competitors including one of the dudes from the future vehicles department.

Well yes, I was talking for "back in the day" when the XM8 concept was being floated. I personally think the concept of a "light tank", perhaps now more than ever, has a lot of merit. Provided they can make it cost-effective without making it a piece of shit.

 

[Mr.Bucket]

Well yes, I was talking for "back in the day" when the XM8 concept was being floated. I personally think the concept of a "light tank", perhaps now more than ever, has a lot of merit. Provided they can make it cost-effective without making it a piece of shit.

Well we got the M10 now, which they're calling an 'assault gun' more than a 'light tank' but still. I think it's cool as hell, personally. I talked to a guy at work who was a tanker for 25 years (from sheridans all the way up to m1a2's with everything in between) about it and he loved the idea of an armored infantry support vehicle with a larger gun while keeping the big tanks behind for big tank jobs.

 

[Active User]

Don't disrespect a future former marine with those sorts of comparisons. Come on now.

 

[Amerikaner Teddybär]

Don't disrespect a future former marine with those sorts of comparisons. Come on now.

Same energy.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Well we got the M10 now, which they're calling an 'assault gun' more than a 'light tank' but still. I think it's cool as hell, personally. I talked to a guy at work who was a tanker for 25 years (from sheridans all the way up to m1a2's with everything in between) about it and he loved the idea of an armored infantry support vehicle with a larger gun while keeping the big tanks behind for big tank jobs.

Now the US just needs to adopt a fucking HE shell and stop relying on HEAT MP-T for infantry support, I still think the ZTQ-15 is probably better, China has more mature 105mm ammunition and it has a bustle autoloader.

View attachment 5523043

I was scrolling the thread and saw this from months ago, I think it's a shame David hasn't dropped a VT-4 video yet, because SinoDefenceForum would eat him alive for being a retard.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Incorrect, HESH is obsolete as fuck, even basic HE-FRAG the Soviets were using on T-62s is superior to HESH at this point, HESH is plastic explosive with absolutely zero fragmentation as the walls of the shell are extremely thin, absolutely terrible for anti infantry, and modern Programmable HE have surpassed it on antistructure as well.

HESH(HEP) was for anti-AFV and still is for any AFV without a spall liner or equivalent. Also anti-fortification, anti-structure which is still highly useful and necessary as seen back in Iraq and in Afghanistan. You're the only person I seen who thinks HESH is for anti-personnal use (out in the open) which it isn't.

 

[Mr.Bucket]

I still think the ZTQ-15 is probably better,

It's chinese so it probably doesn't work.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

HESH(HEP) was for anti-AFV and still is for any AFV without a spall liner or equivalent. Also anti-fortification, anti-structure which is still highly useful and necessary as seen back in Iraq and in Afghanistan. You're the only person I seen who thinks HESH is for anti-personnal use (out in the open) which it isn't.

I know HESH is for anti armour/structure, but the reason it's outdated is the only vehicles it works on (light vehicles without composites) could be knocked out just as easily by HE-Frag, or HEAT, which both don't require you to also have a rifled gun, and like I said modern programable HE works just as well for anti structure while also being much better at anti-infantry at the same time, the reason I said it's terrible for anti-personnel is the C2 doesn't have a HE round, and in Ukraine HE shells for tanks are by far the most important, so what else can they use? To put it simply, anything HESH can still do HE (especially programmable HE) can do better.

It's chinese so it probably doesn't work.

Very ignorant post, China has been producing good vehicles for a while now.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Very ignorant post, China has been producing good vehicles for a while now.

Press x to doubt. Until proven, they are chink boxes made of chinesium steel.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Press x to doubt. Until proven, they are chink boxes made of chinesium steel.

VT-4 has worked perfectly fine for the countries that have bought it.

 

[WelperHelper99]

VT-4 has worked perfectly fine for the countries that have bought it.

Have you welded Chinese steel? I sure as fuck have. Those things are shitboxes made of shit steel waiting to fall apart the moment they get hit by anything harder than a machine gun.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Have you welded Chinese steel? I sure as fuck have. Those things are shitboxes made of shit steel waiting to fall apart the moment they get hit by anything harder than a machine gun.

Ah I see, I have a friend who's a steelworker who seems to think literally everything that comes out of China is absolute dogshit, fortunately the shit they export isn't the shit that Norinco and the likes use for production of AFVs, Chinese tanks have been used in the past, in Sudan they defeated T-72s, Iraq operated them, although the ones they operated were very outdated. Chinese arms production have been high quality for a while now, even going as far back as the Type-56 which was a very high quality AK. They even produce the best Flanker variant, much to Russias chagrin.

Also, China will produce what you pay them, if you pay bottom of the barrel prices you will get bottom of the barrel prices, if you buy from a reputable seller at greater expense, you will get a higher quality product (see Xiaomi/DJI/Huawei, etc vs Wish.com mystery meat).

 

[WelperHelper99]

Ah I see, I have a friend who's a steelworker who seems to think literally everything that comes out of China is absolute dogshit, fortunately the shit they export isn't the shit that Norinco and the likes use for production of AFVs, Chinese tanks have been used in the past, in Sudan they defeated T-72s, Iraq operated them, although the ones they operated were very outdated. Chinese arms production have been high quality for a while now, even going as far back as the Type-56 which was a very high quality AK. They even produce the best Flanker variant, much to Russias chagrin.

Sudan and Iraq... my guy, those were operated by literal sand nogs, and Iraqi armor got pulverized the moment they met a M1 Abrams. I have no illusions about Chinese metallurgy. It is shit. Until proven otherwise in a peer to peer fight, their tanks are garbage that should be melted down and turned into boat anchors.

 

[DNNS-2]

HESH(HEP) was for anti-AFV and still is for any AFV without a spall liner or equivalent. Also anti-fortification, anti-structure which is still highly useful and necessary as seen back in Iraq and in Afghanistan. You're the only person I seen who thinks HESH is for anti-personnal use (out in the open) which it isn't.

Well a large part of the problem for HESH is practical accuracy. Since it has thinner walls than basically all rounds they fire at lower velocities and as such the practical accuracy is lower even with newer fire control systems.

HESH has a lot of problems against armor that is basically not monolithic armor. So anything that is compromised of spaced armor arrays will defeat HESH. Basically any IFV and APC built since at least the 80s will most likely handle it from a 105mm-120mm HESH round. Not because these vehicles have extremely strong armor, but the shockwaves from the HESH explosion can not properly propagate to the interior of the vehicle. Literally junk strapped to the exterior of vehicles has a decent chance of defeating HESH.

HE-Frag, HEAT-MP, and projectiles like the US' new M1147 AMP round are not only better at anti fortification, but anti infantry, and also have equal or better anti-tank killing abilities. They also travel at faster velocities giving it better practical accuracy and are in general just more reliable at doing their job.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Sudan and Iraq... my guy, those were operated by literal sand nogs, and Iraqi armor got pulverized the moment they met a M1 Abrams. I have no illusions about Chinese metallurgy. It is shit. Until proven otherwise in a peer to peer fight, their tanks are garbage that should be melted down and turned into boat anchors.

Do you want to actually discuss AFVs in good faith or do you want to go "China is shit" in reply to everything I say? Because your response to them actually being used in combat is "it doesn't count because those operators were retarded" not sure how that would relate to the metallurgy of the tank, it went into battle and worked. I also literally said " although the ones they operated were very outdated" in regards to Iraq because they were operating Type 59/69 (T-54A) against M1A1s, of course they'd get their shit rolled, you might as well say "yeah I can beat up a 12 year old". You might have expertise in regards to the Chinese steel you've worked with, but China has exported plenty of arms in the past and not a single complaint has come up about the metallurgy of their vehicles, Pakistan has bought JF-17 and J-10C, as well as VT-4, Chinese military equipment isn't junk.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Do you want to actually discuss AFVs in good faith or do you want to go "China is shit" in reply to everything I say? Because your response to them actually being used in combat is "it doesn't count because those operators were retarded" not sure how that would relate to the metallurgy of the tank, it went into battle and worked. I also literally said " although the ones they operated were very outdated" in regards to Iraq because they were operating Type 59/69 (T-54A) against M1A1s, of course they'd get their shit rolled, you might as well say "yeah I can beat up a 12 year old". You might have expertise in regards to the Chinese steel you've worked with, but China has exported plenty of arms in the past and not a single complaint has come up about the metallurgy of their vehicles, Pakistan has bought JF-17 and J-10C, as well as VT-4, Chinese military equipment isn't junk.

My guy, people haven't complained because nobody has tested out their new shit. And I doubt Pakistan or any nation China sells to is just going to tell the west "yeah, our tanks are rust buckets and are jets are just rip-offs of designs we stole from the Americans.".

Until I see combat footage, I'm going to trust what I know, and I know chinese steel and craftsmanship is shit. That isnt bias, that is me working with their junk. They do not give a fuck about quality control when making something simple like a pair of pliers, you think they are going to start caring about big shit? Fuck no! Communism pays like shit. Hense their workmanship is shit.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

My guy, people haven't complained because nobody has tested out their new shit. And I doubt Pakistan or any nation China sells to is just going to tell the west "yeah, our tanks are rust buckets and are jets are just rip-offs of designs we stole from the Americans.".

Until I see combat footage, I'm going to trust what I know, and I know chinese steel and craftsmanship is shit. That isnt bias, that is me working with their junk. They do not give a fuck about quality control when making something simple like a pair of pliers, you think they are going to start caring about big shit? Fuck no! Communism pays like shit. Hense their workmanship is shit.

Okay, you're grossly uniformed about the Chinese defence industry to the point you think the JF-17 and J-10C are knock offs of US designs (The JF-17 being the end product of Pakistani and Chinese cooperation after the Grumman-Chengdu Super 7 project fell through), so I don't really see a point in continuing a good faith discussion, but if you're so sure that your slice of life in working with Chinese steel is indicative of all Chinese products I'd like to ask why companies like BYD, Huawei, Xiaomi, DJI, CSSC, etc are successful world wide, oh and why China builds 50+% of the worlds ships.

 

[DNNS-2]

I believe it's wise not to underestimate your enemies. Your impression of China shouldn't be derived from dropped shipped items originating from Temu and harbor freight tools meant for western consumers and anti-Chinese propaganda made by some Falun Gong affiliated media channel.

At face value, modern Chinese stuff generally looks competently made. Though some specific vehicles and items criticism can be had. We won't know the true nature of the Chinese army and it's equipment until we see this stuff in use in the field or internal reports get published or leaked. Generally vintage chicom equipment has a relatively positive reputation to my knowledge.

It's just a good rule of thumb not to underestimate your enemy. If you consider them your enemy.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

I believe it's wise not to underestimate your enemies. Your impression of China shouldn't be derived from dropped shipped items originating from Temu meant for western consumers and anti-Chinese propaganda made by some Falun Gong affiliated media channel.

At face value, modern Chinese stuff generally looks competently made. Though some specific vehicles and items criticism can be had. We won't know the true nature of the Chinese army and it's equipment until we see this stuff in use in the field or internal reports get published or leaked. Generally vintage chicom equipment has a relatively positive reputation to my knowledge.

It's just a good rule of thumb not to underestimate your enemy. If you consider them your enemy.

Exactly, I'm not here to act like every piece of Chinese equipment is outstanding, the QBZ-95 was sub-par, and the WZ-551 definitely leaves a lot to be desired, but to act like everything out of China is shit is very ignorant.