David Steel / LazerPig / Ricewynd / Malquistion - Pathological Liar, Reddit Historian, Femboy Thirster, and Vore Connoisseur

[ZTZ-99A]

It's a pretty slow autoloader all things considered. And it has the ammo sitting right at the bottom, vulnerable to side hits and mines. A Abrams would have to get hit in the bustle with the door open to get the same kind of catastrophic explosion that I'd normal in a T-72 family tank. I'd take a side hit in a Abrams with a bit of shrapnel if it meant I didn't also blow up.

I agree, the Abrams is the most survivable tank for the crew in existence right now, but a side hit would still be a knockout. Funnily enough other western tanks that store ammo in the front hull are just as vulnerable in the same way. And the speed doesn't matter too much, it would take the commander more time to find a new target than it would to reload, and the Chinese one is actually faster than the Russian original. Also, an autoloader won't ever get tired. I imagine China will move to a bustle autoloader in their next generation MBT considering the VT-5 and ZTQ-15 already have.

 

[The Foxtrot]

If his Patron post is to be believed, soon after he reached out to Ian from Forgotten Weapons (dot com), Ian put out a video deboonking common myths about the AK, including it's design history. Which would be very funny if that was Ian's polite way of telling him to fuck off.

I'm pretty sure that is exactly what the point of that video was. And maybe/maybe not Ian also doing it for all the fudds saying retarded shit like "Hurr Durr da Aye Kay iz a peese of COMMIE POT METTUL!", instead of admitting the AK platform is a good one.

I think Ian got a look at LP's script, went "This guy has not a clue about guns", and made his AK video. Pretty much torpedoing LP's AK video dead and ensuring if it did get uploaded, it would've been a worse drama than his T14 video.

I hope he gets drunk as hell and still makes/releases the AK video.

 

[WelperHelper99]

It's only affiliated with the T-72 in the most superficial way possible. That being the gun type and autoloader, which are still capable today and the elements of the suspension.

It's just based off previous Chinese export tanks that has a heritage to the T-72 but the hull has been stretched and modified in so many ways. Ship of theseus basically.

It's a bit like saying the Leopard 2 is a Leopard 1. And yes the Leopard 2 has heritage stemming from the Leopard 1 through the Leopard 2K and the gilded Leopard. Mostly out of necessity due to the MBT-70 program existing and not allowing competing new projects.

The ship of thesius argument only works if they didn't keep the part that makes the T-72 a T-72, which is the autoloader that goes nuclear if you sneeze at it

I agree, the Abrams is the most survivable tank for the crew in existence right now, but a side hit would still be a knockout. Funnily enough other western tanks that store ammo in the front hull are just as vulnerable in the same way.

Sure western tanks still have frontal hull storage. Its up to the crew if their stupid enough to use it. A Autoloader is stuck with its loadout layout.

And the speed doesn't matter too much, it would take the commander more time to find a new target than it would to reload, and the Chinese one is actually faster than the Russian originaL

Speed always matters. Follow up shots.

Also, an autoloader won't ever get tired. I imagine China will move to a bustle autoloader in their next generation MBT considering the VT-5 and ZTQ-15 already have.

Sure a autoloader won't get tired, but it can't help me if a track breaks down. That's what a loader is for, being the bitch lol.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

The ship of thesius argument only works if they didn't keep the part that makes the T-72 a T-72, which is the autoloader that goes nuclear if you sneeze at it

The autoloader isn't actually the cause of explosions most of the time, its the loose ammo stored around around the hull, which the VT-4 unfortunately still does as far as I'm aware

Sure western tanks still have frontal hull storage. Its up to the crew if their stupid enough to use it. A Autoloader is stuck with its loadout layout.

There's not a single tank crew on earth that will go into battle with only the ammo stored in the bustle of the tanks I'm talking about (K2, Type 10, Leclerc, Leopard 2), because they simply don't carry enough rounds, being 12-14.

Speed always matters. Follow up shots.

I mean sure it's better to be faster, but even a human loader won't be hitting much better than 7 seconds and especially not after the first few shells.

Sure a autoloader won't get tired, but it can't help me if a track breaks down. That's what a loader is for, being the bitch lol.

Helpful in peacetime or in the rear, not so much on the field, if you get tracked while in combat you're ditching the tank anyway..

 

[DNNS-2]

The ship of thesius argument only works if they didn't keep the part that makes the T-72 a T-72, which is the autoloader that goes nuclear if you sneeze at it

Nearly all tanks have ammunition in the hull. It's a bit more nuanced than that. A large part of the problem is really not the autoloader, though that is still a vulnerability. It is the stored ammunition across the hull. The autoloader is quite well designed and thought out placing the ammunition as low as possible versus the autoloader that's used on the T-64 and T-80. That's why the 90M moved a lot of the stored ammunition from the hull was moved into a completed isolated bustle rack. Which makes it safer for the crew, but on the flip side makes it easier to disable in the Ukraine War context with FPV drones. The same is true for the Abrams and to a lesser extent the Leopard 2.

What is a big development for the west is the use of insensitive propellant in their newest ammunition.

Sure western tanks still have frontal hull storage. Its up to the crew if their stupid enough to use it. A Autoloader is stuck with its loadout layout.

Some tanks like the Leopard 2 has no choice but to carry ammunition in the hull. The bustle ready rack carries too few.

Also, there are autoloaders that reload in a matter of a few seconds like what's used on the Type 10 and K2

 

[WelperHelper99]

The autoloader isn't actually the cause of explosions most of the time, its the loose ammo stored around around the hull, which the VT-4 unfortunately still does as far as I'm aware

Yeah that's what I'm talking about

You are surrounded by ammo because of the autoloader design. You will die as a gunner if you get ammo racked

There's not a single tank crew on earth that will go into battle with only the ammo stored in the bustle of the tanks I'm talking about (K2, Type 10, Leclerc, Leopard 2), because they simply don't carry enough rounds, being 12-14.

I mean there is a solution: use those first and don't keep HEAT or HE frag up front.

I mean sure it's better to be faster, but even a human loader won't be hitting much better than 7 seconds and especially not after the first few shells.

Seven seconds is better than 8. Speed is life.

Helpful in peacetime or in the rear, not so much on the field, if you get tracked while in combat you're ditching the tank anyway..

Chieftain said the loader was plenty useful his time in Iraq.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Yeah that's what I'm talking about

Fatal mistake there my friend, that's a T-64/T-80 Autoloader (and a poor render at that), a T-72/T-90 autoloader sits under the crew, which is why the T-90M was able to armour the autoloader a lot to stop anything but a direct hit from detonating it. War thunder to demonstrate the difference, top is T-80BVM bottom is VT-4, what I'm talking about is the ammo stored OUTSIDE the autoloader, which is what actually causes most ammo detonations in T-72/T-90.

I mean there is a solution: use those first and don't keep HEAT or HE frag up front.

That won't stop the propellant from exploding which is what kills most tanks.

Seven seconds is better than 8. Speed is life.

T-72 autoloader is about 7.1 seconds, most Abrams crew will hit 5-6 for the first shot then 7+ for the rest.

Chieftain said the loader was plenty useful his time in Iraq.

Fair enough, but a lot lower intensity conflict against a far weaker opponent, it is an advantage though, and if you break down and are surrounded by friendlies who are clearly winning like in 73 easting you're probably not ditching your tank. But plenty of other countries have opted for autoloaders because they think the 4th crewmember isn't needed.

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

I know HESH is for anti armour/structure, but the reason it's outdated is the only vehicles it works on (light vehicles without composites) could be knocked out just as easily by HE-Frag, or HEAT, which both don't require you to also have a rifled gun, and like I said modern programable HE works just as well for anti structure while also being much better at anti-infantry at the same time,

HESH doesn't require a rifle barrel as it can be fired from a smoothbore barrel. Not going to get the same min-max circular pancake like with a rifle barrel when it hits but close enough is good enough.

Although the biggest hurdle against carrying and using HEP, HE, HE-Frag is the ammunition capacity of the tanks themselves and the added logistics.

 

[DNNS-2]

You are surrounded by ammo because of the autoloader design. You will die as a gunner if you get ammo racked

That is not how the real AZ autoloader looks like. That's now even how the MZ autoloader on the T-80 or T-64 looks like.


This is how it looks like with the projectile on the bottom and the additional propellant on top. Quite low profile especially compared to that illustration.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Fatal mistake there my friend, that's a T-64/T-80 Autoloader (and a poor render at that), a T-72/T-90 autoloader sits under the crew, which is why the T-90M was able to armour the autoloader a lot to stop anything but a direct hit from detonating it. War thunder to demonstrate the difference, top is T-80BVM bottom is VT-4, what I'm talking about is the ammo stored OUTSIDE the autoloader, which is what actually causes most ammo detonations in T-72/T-90.

I knew you played war thunder. Response to comment below

That is not how the real AZ autoloader looks like. That's now even how the MZ autoloader on the T-80 or T-64 looks like.

View attachment 5890107
This is how it looks like with the projectile on the bottom and the additional propellant on top. Quite low profile especially compared to that illustration.

It's still a fuckton of powder the gunner is SITTING on. They roll over a mine he is fucked. Someone shoots low or from the top, BOOM.

Fair enough, but a lot lower intensity conflict against a far weaker opponent, it is an advantage though, and if you break down and are surrounded by friendlies who are clearly winning like in 73 easting you're probably not ditching your tank. But plenty of other countries have opted for autoloaders because they think the 4th crewmember isn't needed.

I personally think that is a stupid assumption. There are plenty of things you want a extra set of hands for, not just tracks. Besides if a loader dies, toss a new guy in. If a autoloader gets fucked, that is weeks in a shop.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

HESH doesn't require a rifle barrel as it can be fired from a smoothbore barrel. Not going to get the same min-max circular pancake like with a rifle barrel when it hits but close enough is good enough.

Although the biggest hurdle against carrying and using HEP, HE, HE-Frag is the ammunition capacity of the tanks themselves and the added logistics.

Still just an obsolete round that doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, and if you can definitely carry HE+HEAT+APFSDS, the Germans and French do, but modern Programmable HE could honestly replace HEAT for most purposes too tbh.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Still just an obsolete round that doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, and if you can definitely carry HE+HEAT+APFSDS, the Germans and French do, but modern Programmable HE could honestly replace HEAT for most purposes too tbh.

But programmable ammo is EXPENSIVE. HESH is not. Hense they're keeping it for the M10 booker, a brand new light tank/assault gun thing. If you need a brick wall taken out now, fast, cheap, HESH will do it. Microchips cost money man.

 

[JJLiautaud]

Tank autoloaders suck lets talk about a real autoloader:

Have you met our lord and savior the 8"/55 RF Mk 16?

 

[ZTZ-99A]

I knew you played war thunder. Response to comment below

Well duh, I like tanks, Gunner, HEAT, PC! is a better game though, Steel Beasts is harder for my tiny mind, and requires a subscription.

It's still a fuckton of powder the gunner is SITTING on. They roll over a mine he is fucked. Someone shoots low or from the top, BOOM.

Same goes for a Leopard 2, Type 10, Leclerc, etc, but you're honestly not as vulnerable in regards to mines considering the ammo is more centred, also if someone hits you with a top attack ATGM you're dead as fuck anyway, nothing will save you.

I personally think that is a stupid assumption. There are plenty of things you want a extra set of hands for, not just tracks. Besides if a loader dies, toss a new guy in. If a autoloader gets fucked, that is weeks in a shop.

Like I said it's just a trade off, but autoloaders usually aren't too hard to repair, the AZ isn't even very complicated either.

But programmable ammo is EXPENSIVE. HESH is not. Hense they're keeping it for the M10 booker, a brand new light tank/assault gun thing. If you need a brick wall taken out now, fast, cheap, HESH will do it. Microchips cost money man.

I'd be very surprised if the US started using their old M393 and didn't opt for something like Israeli M110 HE-MP, or downscale the M1147 to 105mm.

Tank autoloaders suck lets talk a bout a real autoloader:
View attachment 5890153
Have you met our lord and savior the 8"/55 RF Mk 16?

bro fuck ships FUCK SHIPS "OUR BOILERS CROWN SHEET HAS FAILED, THE MAGAZINE HAS BEEN HIT" then literally 200+ people die.

 

[WelperHelper99]

Well duh, I like tanks, Gunner, HEAT, PC! is a better game though, Steel Beasts is harder for my tiny mind, and requires a subscription.

My nigga, you gotta read this thread and know the memes.

Same goes for a Leopard 2, Type 10, Leclerc, etc, but you're honestly not as vulnerable in regards to mines considering the ammo is more centred, also if someone hits you with a top attack ATGM you're dead as fuck anyway, nothing will save you.

If theyve already used the hull storage, no, they probably got a good chance tbh.

Like I said it's just a trade off, but autoloaders usually aren't too hard to repair, the AZ isn't even very complicated either.

Dude, weeks in a depo vs hozing a guy out in a hour, I know which one I'm picking.

I'd be very surprised if the US started using their old M393 and didn't opt for something like Israeli M110 HE-MP, or downscale the M1147 to 105mm.

They're just using everything that was in that old Stryker assault gun, which was HESH

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

Still just an obsolete round that doesn't really serve a purpose anymore, and if you can definitely carry HE+HEAT+APFSDS, the Germans and French do, but modern Programmable HE could honestly replace HEAT for most purposes too tbh.

Plain Jane HE won't be use as it is better to use HEAT instead as to minimize the number of different types of main gun ammunition carried. Preferably only APFSDS and HEAT whenever possible.

 

[ZTZ-99A]

Plain Jane HE won't be use as it is better to use HEAT instead as to minimize the number of different types of main gun ammunition carried. Preferably only APFSDS and HEAT whenever possible.

M1147 is apparently planned to replace HEAT as well apparently, and like I said, the Germans and French carry programmable HE as well as HEAT and APFSDS.

 

[1Tonka_Truck]

Can it not be the case that Western companies are importing cheap Chinese steel precisely because it is cheap?

No. Order whatever grade you want, they will send you metallic shit. AISI/ASTM grades and their specific chemistries are a suggestion at best.

 

[DNNS-2]

HESH doesn't require a rifle barrel as it can be fired from a smoothbore barrel. Not going to get the same min-max circular pancake like with a rifle barrel when it hits but close enough is good enough.

HESH is a full bore caliber projectile with no fins. It needs a rifled barrel for spin stabilization. No one has really bothered with making fin stabilized HESH aside from some very obscure alleged examples. Allegedly, HESH works better while it's spinning but I don't know as opposed to HEAT which benefits from little to no soin. Also considering that not only is it already slow as it, but has fins causing it to have more drag, I can imagine even slower velocities

 

[Fatsuit Shinji]

HESH is a full bore caliber projectile with no fins. It needs a rifled barrel for spin stabilization. No one has really bothered with making fin stabilized HESH aside from some very obscure alleged examples. Allegedly, HESH works better while it's spinning but I don't know as opposed to HEAT which benefits from little to no soin. Also considering that not only is it already slow as it, but has fins causing it to have more drag, I can imagine even slower velocities

Link to almost twenty year old Tanknet thread on this. Link Archive link It is indeed possible to fire HEP(HESH) through a smoothbore to good effect. However like with rifled barrels making sure it doesn't spin too slow or too fast is an issue. In addition to the more pertinent hassle of making the bloody things. Which is the bigger albeit lesser known reason why everybody but the English and Pajeets withdrawn HESH(HEP) from service or never adopted it in the first place.