Christian theology thread for Christians - Deus homo factus est naturam erante, mundus renovatus est a Christo regnante

[analrapist]

What do you mean that "this is surely not a Calvinist teaching?"

Finally, someone with a little twinkle of sincerity. Still not enough to even glance at an abstract, but still.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Anyway. The problem with Calvinism and its off shoots is that they lean way too hard into predestination.

Which is not to say that it's the ONLY problem with their theology, but it's the biggest one and one that tends to exasperate their other issues.

 

[macrodegenerate]

I always viewed predestination and determinism as a means through which to forgive rather than despair. If you truly believe in them, it is unethical to hate another human being for their actions. If their actions are predefined, they never had a choice in choosing to sin, and choosing to personally condemn them from an act they were forced to commit isn't fair. That being said if one wrongs another, Justice must first be served after which forgiveness is mandatory.

 

[Thomas Talus]

Maybe analrapist is a 4-point Calvinist.

 

[mindlessobserver]

I always viewed predestination and determinism as a means through which to forgive rather than despair. If you truly believe in them, it is unethical to hate another human being for their actions. If their actions are predefined, they never had a choice in choosing to sin, and choosing to personally condemn them from an act they were forced to commit isn't fair. That being said if one wrongs another, Justice must first be served after which forgiveness is mandatory.

I can see why people would like to think that, but the bible is pretty clear that God is the Alpha and the Omega. He's not every other letter in between. God knows how it all began, and he knows how it will all end. But what happens in between is up to us. Predestination by necessity abrogates a critical part of the Creed of Nicae, which is "I believe...From thence will come to Judge the Living and the Dead".

If everything was just predetermined the judgement of the living and the dead is meaningless.

 

[macrodegenerate]

I can see why people would like to think that, but the bible is pretty clear that God is the Alpha and the Omega. He's not every other letter in between. God knows how it all began, and he knows how it will all end. But what happens in between is up to us. Predestination by necessity abrogates a critical part of the Creed of Nicae, which is "I believe...From thence will come to Judge the Living and the Dead".

If everything was just predetermined the judgement of the living and the dead is meaningless.

The world is just people making stupid choices in response to stupid situations they didn't always choose to be in. I believe in predetermination even if it's not God "rigging the game" or "pulling the strings" as some claim. I know that God is a practitioner of justice if not its source. A just person shows mercy when judging those who were led to commit sinful acts due to circumstances beyond their control. I am guided by that principle, even if God is not. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is though because if not we're all screwed.

 

[Derrick]

I don't know if this debate has happened yet but does anybody want to weigh in on their opinions on the origin of the universe/life? Do you believe in Evolution? What about a literal six day genesis style creation?

 

[foreman 89]

Covenant Theology - Mastering Reformed Theology Chapter 8​

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUrf15H8cB8

 

[std::string]

Anyway. The problem with Calvinism and its off shoots is that they lean way too hard into predestination.

Which is not to say that it's the ONLY problem with their theology, but it's the biggest one and one that tends to exasperate their other issues.

Calvin was a lawyer. There are zero logical problems with five-point Calvinism.

Moral problems, ethical problems, narrative problems, sure...but it's pretty airtight otherwise.

 

[mindlessobserver]

The world is just people making stupid choices in response to stupid situations they didn't always choose to be in. I believe in predetermination even if it's not God "rigging the game" or "pulling the strings" as some claim. I know that God is a practitioner of justice if not its source. A just person shows mercy when judging those who were led to commit sinful acts due to circumstances beyond their control. I am guided by that principle, even if God is not. I have a sneaking suspicion that he is though because if not we're all screwed.

I think about it more like say, NPC's driving around in GTA. Yes, the world of GTA is governed by the almighty Program that governs behavior to a certain extent, and narrative events will occur without exception as the game progresses. But within these parameters the NPC's get to walk or drive around as they see fit. While God has a "Plan", how we operate within the boundaries of the overall plan are up too us. An omnipotent God can see ALL possible outcomes in a given scenario. Conversely he's not bound to being an autistic micro manager having to make a decision on every little detail.

 

[Romulus augustulus]

I see the merits of a lot of catholic traditions and writings (What little of it i have read which is mainly from the 5th - 9th century and more on the governing side rather than the godly) but i just cannot accept the idea of papal infallibility. The roman catholic church, like all worldly organizations can and will (or has) been corrupted.

 

[Halo Cipher]

I like Russian and Greek Orthodox Christianity a lot. I've felt more connected to the theology and teachings from these churches more than anything else in Christianity. I understood the Holy Trinity properly for the first time with explanations from the Greeks after trying for years to wrap my head around explanations from Catholics to Baptists. There's nothing else that feels as soulful, ethereal, safe, moving, clear, welcoming, merciful, and strong like Orthodox Christianity. I wish everyone could feel how I do when I look up and see Jesus with the saints surrounding me instead of bland cross symbols. I will never go back. Every step back to the Church Fathers is a win for anybody in my book. It doesn't make sense why anyone would divert from their teachings or the Church that still honors them without deviation. Just my two cents.

I think it has ultimately satisfied the desire I had for ritual, mystery, and richness in Church and spiritual life that was missing in my experience of Western Christianity and tried to find within New Age practices for a few years. Disillusionment from Western Christianity including atheism can easily be corrected by going back to the source and experiencing what saints died for to preserve for our sake.

 

[std::string]

I see the merits of a lot of catholic traditions and writings (What little of it i have read which is mainly from the 5th - 9th century and more on the governing side rather than the godly) but i just cannot accept the idea of papal infallibility. The roman catholic church, like all worldly organizations can and will (or has) been corrupted.

What's your understanding of papal infallibility?

 

[macrodegenerate]

I see the merits of a lot of catholic traditions and writings (What little of it i have read which is mainly from the 5th - 9th century and more on the governing side rather than the godly) but i just cannot accept the idea of papal infallibility. The roman catholic church, like all worldly organizations can and will (or has) been corrupted.

The Catholic church transcends the testament, It is a guiding principle, but not the reason why the church exists. The church exists as a means to carry out the will of God and spread the gospal, with the Pope and Cardinals as the managing authority of that mission. Their choices guide and empower the smaller organizations aligned with the faith which act in service of God, but ultimately it is local leadership and organization which is responsible for driving that. Leadership which is very much held accountable locally.

I have seen these organizations and smaller churches act in service of good in ways both majestic and simple. From building women's shelters, to granting dignity to the disabled through grants to their education and the local special Olympics. That more than anything is the spirit and power of Catholicism and the reason why it persists into the modern day, and no singular man or group of men in the Vatican can corrupt or destroy that.

 

[The_Bladder_Splatter]

Sidetrack:
Did the second and third great awakening and the religions that spawned being baptists, mormons, adventists, jws plus the myriad of McChurches ended up damaging Christianity on the long run?, After all these movements were the ones that created things like the satanic panic, the vidya and anime "are things from the devil" crap and their overall authoritarian/paranoid nature (mormons and jws i'm looking at you two) resulted in people getting huge doses of resentment and burnout helping to usher the fedora atheism wave who eventually evolved into the secular religion that is the SJW dogma, i say that because the other day i stumbled upon a video of Brendon Urie (who was raised as a mormon) sperging about the bible being a bronze age book full of crap made before modern science in true new atheist fashion

 

[Lone MacReady II]

It is finished.

 

[std::string]

Sidetrack:
Did the second and third great awakening and the religions that spawned being baptists, mormons, adventists, jws plus the myriad of McChurches ended up damaging Christianity on the long run?

I doubt it. It's more that they got welded onto right-wing politics than anything else. No euphoric atheist really even knows about Azusa Street but they do know about Jerry Falwell.

Euphoric neckbeards are super focused on evangelicals because they're the most active politically. Nobody's out there talking shit about Anglicans.

 

[Thomas Talus]

Nobody's out there talking shit about Anglicans.

Why bother? Outside of Africa, they're basically moribund. Your average british vicar is probably a redditor anyway.

 

[Derrick]

Nobody's out there talking shit about Anglicans.

Why bother? Outside of Africa, they're basically moribund. Your average british vicar is probably a redditor anyway.

I have kept a close eye on the happenings in the Anglican Communion, I believe the Church of Nigeria has recently surpassed the Church of England as the largest church in the communion thanks to the rapid lose of membership the CoE is suffering from and the Nigerians high birth rate.

There is currently a civil war going on between the liberal denominations which are open LGBT clergy and same sex unions like the Episcopalians/Church of England/Anglican Church of Canada and the conservatives (everybody else). The conservatives have formed GAFCON as their own separate organization. A major point of contention is Resolution 1.10 which was passed in 1998 and declared homosexuality as sinful. At the most recent Lambeth Conference (a meeting of Anglicans that happens every 10 years) in 2022 the conservatives managed to keep Resolution 1.10 as a binding part of the communion.

Honestly at this points it seems almost certain that the conservatives will win the battle for the Anglican Communion, the liberal Anglican Churches are rapidly shrinking in membership and therefore influence. Whereas the African Churches like the Kenyan Anglican Church and Church of Nigeria are holding steady or increasing in membership thanks to birth rates.

The only real influence the liberals have is that the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Church of England, who also serves as the spiritual head of the Anglican Communion, but his power and influence is rapidly diminishing. The Church of Uganda announced plans to permanently split from Church of England run Anglican Communion in 2023 and you can very clearly see where the current Archbishop, Justin Welby, is being ignored by the rest of the Anglican Communion, for example in 2021 he condemned the Head of the Church of Nigeria, Henry Ndukuba, for calling Homosexuality a virus that needed to be expunged, only to be ignored. In 2023 he condemned a bill in Uganda which heightened the penalty for consensual homosexual acts, including the death penalty for some Gay Acts, only to have the head of the Church of Uganda, Stephen Kaziimba, go against him and state his support for the bill (minus the death penalty part).

tl;dr Theres a civil war ongoing in the Anglican Communion, and the Conservatives are probably going to win.

Of course when I say conservative I mean on the topic of the LGBT, many are liberal on other issues, some allowing partial ordination of women.

 

[std::string]

tl;dr Theres a civil war ongoing in the Anglican Communion, and the Conservatives are probably going to win.

Yeah, I'm aware of it. Mostly because of Catholics in the UK wanting to join the personal ordinariate Anglican churches.

It's the same stuff in the world of Catholicism too. Europeans (who are mostly liberal) trying to hold on. I really would not be surprised if they elect Robert Sarah to be the next pope and it just melts everyone's brains.