AIBU about sex education

[isalaide]

I'd go to Mumsnet, but I already know what they would say.

I am in a disagreement with husband. School has passed out the lesson plans for next year's Health and Relationship Education lessons. My elder children will be in the equivalent of fourth grade, third grade and first grade next year.

I have read the lesson plans and I want to withdraw them for at least some of the lessons. Husband is tearing me a new one over this and I think he will ultimately overrule my wishes.

I have been unable to determine what the transgender content of the lessons are; there's nothing on the otherwise very comprehensive lesson plan and handouts. It does appear in the equivalent of fifth and sixth grade lesson plans, though.

But there are various passages that I am just not able to accept that my eight and nine year old daughters should be taught about in a class full of other eight and nine year olds.

I have screenies of these parts but am not good with computer so will just stick the text up here for now.

Benchmarks
• Uses correct terminology for all private body parts and
reproductive organs, for example, breasts, clitoris.
Describes the physical and emotional changes during
puberty including erections, wet dreams, pubic hair,
masturbation, menstruation, hormones, mood swings.
Identifies strategies to manage emotions, for example,
relaxation techniques, speaking to someone, taking time
out.
Describes ways of keeping hygienic during puberty.
The learning intentions and success criteria are met with delivery of all parts of this topic.

11. Optional slide/discussion/Pornography: This slide allows you to explore pornography if this is of
relevance to your learners. It is estimated that at least one-third of children will have seen
pornographic content by the end of P7. The purpose of the slide is to explain what pornography is
and encourage a child to talk with a trusted adult. Share the slide and ensure understanding.
Pornography is sometimes called 'porn'.
Pornography is a photograph, image, film or words that are about something sexual.
Porn can show people's sexual body parts or show people having sex.
Some porn can be upsetting because it shows a person being hurt or abused.
It is wrong for an adult or other young person to show you pornography.
If you see something you don't understand or is upsetting it helps to tell an adult you trust.

9. Erections. Explain that changes also happen to boys. Explain these changes can happen anytime
from now, to when a boy is older. Use the slide to give information and encourage conversation.
Erections: An erection is when the boy's penis goes hard and sticks out from his body.
Erections are normal. They can happen at any time. They can last a few minutes or a bit
longer. After a while the erection will stop, and the penis will be soft again.
10. Wet dreams. The slide explains what these are, for both girls and boys.
Wet dreams: When a boy is asleep, he can get an erection. He might ejaculate. Ejaculation
is when semen comes out of the boy's erect penis. When a girl is asleep her vulva can
become wet and slippery. Not everyone has wet dreams but if you do this is normal.
11. Touching your private parts: The slide explains (see NOTE below)
Some children touch their penis or vulva because it can be soothing or enjoyable. This is
okay. This should only be done in private. And remember that your private parts are private,
no-one else should touch them.
NOTE:
a. This slide/text acknowledges that when children touch their genitals at this age it is soothing,
this is not a consciously sexual process for children who have not reached puberty. We do not
suggest you use the word masturbation, because if the activity is being delivered to a group of
children who are likely to not have gone through puberty (say in P5), this touching could be
misunderstood to be about a sexual activity. However, children are exposed to language and
other influences and so if the word masturbation is mentioned by a child or a child asks if this is
masturbation, this can be acknowledged as such.
b.
You may have already discussed touch and private parts; this is covered in more detail in other
activities at First and Second Level. The messages in those lessons are reinforced in the slide,
verbally you can add as in those other activities: Your parent or carer may ask you about your
private parts or see them, to help you learn or keep clean or if you are not well. When you are
with your parent or carer a doctor or nurse might ask to see your private parts.

The girls are well familiar with the rest of the curriculum in terms of how is babby formed, shark week etc. They are confident and comfortable to ask 'body questions' and I've always had the view that if they are old enough to ask, they are old enough to get the explanation in age-appropriate language.

I cannot reconcile myself to the idea that my child, who has never asked about this topic before and has never been given the idea that it wouldn't be okay to ask, is going to be taught about the clitoris and masturbation in school next to her wee pal who is about to have wet dreams and boners explained to him.

I honestly can't get over this. They are eight and nine. I do not want someone who isn't me to explain pornography to them. I do not want them to be 'educated' about jacking off. I feel that this is a level of education beyond 'how your body works' and is entering the territory of sexuality and sexualised behaviour. I do not want someone else to give my children guidance about this.

Husband has described me as a "prudish, pearl clutching right wing maniac". I was offended by the right wing bit.

Am I being unreasonable in wanting to withdraw them from the specific lessons that cover this specific material?

 

[Android raptor]

Kids need comprehensive, medically accurate, age appropriate sex ed. Be glad you live somewhere that offers that instead of banning girls from being taught about their own bodies before 6th grade or telling kids condoms offer no protection against HIV (and other lies).

I don't think telling kids they shouldn't touch themselves in public and that people shouldn't be showing them porn is bad info for older elementary school age kids. They likely have at least a vague idea of what porn is already from chatter from their schoolmates, it sounds like the lesson isn't anything graphic and is just basic definitions plus telling kids it's not ok for anyone to show them porn and to tell a trusted adult if it happens (which is something kids need to be taught especially in the internet age).

I don't remember being taught anything about porn even in high school, and the number of grown-ass men out there who think porn is what real sex is like proves kids need to be taught about that shit (especially with so many kids being exposed to it before they're even in middle school).

Mid-late elementary school is when kids need to learn about both male and female puberty stuff, especially since many girls have already started puberty at that age. Ideally kids are taught that shit before it happens to them so they know what to do ahead of time and don't freak out, and learning about the opposite sex helps prevent them from being that grown-ass adult that doesn't know basic shit about how X reproductive system works (again, there are a saddening number of adult men especially that don't even know basic shit about the female reproductive system, including a disturbing amount of lawmakers).

 

[Tablet County]

Husband has described me as a "prudish, pearl clutching right wing maniac". I was offended by the right wing bit.

I feel like I'm not seeing the whole story here, otherwise I can't imagine what sort of relationship you have with your husband where he's yelling at you like somebody on twitter.

 

[TenMilesWide]

I got the talk in elementary school around 10 years old, they tried to keep it clinical and focused on definitions, kids were more interested in giggling at the funny words than actually learning anything. Discussion of pornography started and ended with "some people record adult bedroom times, these are works of fiction and may not resemble real adult bedroom times. ask your parents for more details"

If you can't opt them out of it you can at least pre-empt it, right? Give them a before talk, define some terms, answer some questions, and tell them to come to you if the official curriculum deviates too far from that? Your kids are going to see and hear (and probably already have) some pretty fucked up shit during their time at school, best you can do is ready them for it.

 

[Android raptor]

I feel like I'm not seeing the whole story here, otherwise I can't imagine what sort of relationship you have with your husband where he's yelling at you like somebody on twitter.

I can imagine but its not flattering for her.

I don't see anything inappropriate about the lesson plan. Kids need to learn that shit even if adults are uncomfortable, especially since so many kids are first exposed to shit like porn in elementary school.

 

[DumbDude43]

most of that stuff just seems kinda pointless and awkward tbh
like it's one thing to teach proper anatomy, but i see absolutely no reason for teachers to talk about kids touching themselves at night? there's no knowledge being taught here, it just seems weird. the best way to talk/teach these things is probably one on one, mother to daughter / father to son.
also the stuff about porn is too neutral for my tastes. the stuff is adult only for a reason, showing it to a minor is a crime in most countries, schools should treat it accordingly by warning against it and emphasizing that it's bad, not this wishy washy nonjudgmental shit.

 

[Character from a movie]

like somebody on twitter.

He's probably a Twitter user.

 

[Android raptor]

most of that stuff just seems kinda pointless and awkward tbh
like it's one thing to teach proper anatomy, but i see absolutely no reason for teachers to talk about kids touching themselves at night?

Lots of kids figure out touching themselves pretty young. They obviously don't know what they're doing but many also don't know it's not ok to do in public. Hence, teaching kids to keep that shit in private.

Unfortunately many parents refuse to teach their kids anything, so they have to be taught in school.

also the stuff about porn is too neutral for my tastes. the stuff is adult only for a reason, showing it to a minor is a crime in most countries, schools should treat it accordingly by warning against it and emphasizing that it's bad, not this wishy washy nonjudgmental shit.

Telling kids it's not ok for either an adult or peer to show them porn and to tell a trusted adult if it happens is too neutral?

 

[DumbDude43]

just noticed this part

I honestly can't get over this. They are eight and nine. I do not want someone who isn't me to explain pornography to them.

that seems extremely young for this stuff. i remember when we had this stuff in school it was 7th grade, so we were like 13 or 14 years old. and it was much less extensive than described in your post, for us it was like 90% anatomy and biology with a little bit of generic "use condoms and dont do drugs" advice added.

 

[Boggy B]

Obviously we've reasons to be paranoid in current year, but I don't think you need to worry until the person delivering sex ed is a fat hairy bloke in a jockstrap, muzzle and dress covered in suspicious stains.

If part of the syllabus reads "An adult showing pornography to a minor is a crime", I am sure the lesson plan will not entail showing pornography to a class full of minors. It'll just be some plain text in a powerpoint with the basics of "This exists, you'll probably find out about it sooner or later."

 

[Justa Grata Honoria]

you have every right to be aprehensive they arent even teenagers yet. They give one print out for parents and its completely different of what kids get, I would absolutely withdraw unless the give me the printouts and booklets that kids get plus a chance to met the "teacher" -I have high suspicion that whatever is written on the printouts its not even half of the shit the teachers might say, we all know the drill about danger hair colours .

Show your husband some of the materials and teachers caught off camera what they teach.

FFS this sounds like half of it is age appropriate and half of it needs to be moved at least for kids 12 and older.

Btw your husband is disrespecting you . You need to nip that in the bud or ramp up the name calling.

 

[Named User]

Send your children to a Christian/Catholic school or homeschool.
There are no other options.

 

[Bob's Fuckass Head]

First, I don't think you're being unreasonable. I'm also of the opinion that pre-empting is the best strategy here, as opposed to withdrawing them entirely. I think preparing them at home for what they're about to encounter will give you the chance to broach all these topics on your own terms and set the tone you want, while avoiding the possible disruption of their social lives at school if you were to withdraw them from specific courses.

Kids will ostracize and bully each other over anything and everything, and sex ed stuff that makes kids uncomfortable will cause them to seek an outlet for their discomfort. I wouldn't want your kids singled out for their absence if it can be helped. Above all, I hope they're able to realize that feeling uncomfortable with the creepy/degenerate side of "modern" sex ed should not make them ashamed. Someone, somewhere is going to try telling them that discomfort is "ackshually just them being bigoted" and they should be ready to resist it.

If you do decide to talk to them about this stuff, it's probably best to include your husband too - on the condition that there will be no fighting or shouting or name-calling or any rancorous disagreement in front of the kids. Seeing their parents fighting over this stuff is only going to unsettle them and make them anxious for the wrong reasons.

 

[Android raptor]

Send your children to a Christian/Catholic school or homeschool.
There are no other options.

And the kids learn nothing and are much easier targets for predators (which are rampant in religious circles)

just noticed this part


that seems extremely young for this stuff. i remember when we had this stuff in school it was 7th grade, so we were like 13 or 14 years old. and it was much less extensive than described in your post, for us it was like 90% anatomy and biology with a little bit of generic "use condoms and dont do drugs" advice added.

Average age of first porn exposure is what, 10? I remember kids talking about porn (or there idea of what it was) even when I was in elementary school.

Growing up in the Bible belt and remembering how piss-poor what we got was (and being well aware of the issues that result like leading the nation in teen pregnancy rates) taught me the importance of comprehensive sex ed starting in elementary school. Basic definitions and letting kids know what is and isn't ok and when they need to get help is never inappropriate.

 

[isalaide]

Send your children to a Christian/Catholic school or homeschool.
There are no other options.

They will go to a Catholic secondary. Homeschooling is not an option; I don't believe I could bring them to the attainment level I want them at homeschooling a whole nest of them in the kitchen.

If this was a lesson being delivered to 12 or 13 year olds, I would feel differently. They are eight and nine. Most of their little friends still have a significant level of belief in Santa. I just feel unhappy introducing masturbation and pornography at school at this age. This feels like something I want to cover with them myself, and also I honestly don't feel they are ready for those conversations.

We are already dealing with the very early signs of puberty, and trying to do this sensitively and in a non-terrifying way. I don't think they are ready to do the human sexuality stuff yet. They understand how sex works. They advised it was "disgusting".

 

[Named User]

And the kids learn nothing and are much easier targets for predators (which are rampant in religious circles)

Oh please, Christian schools are the only schools where children can meaningfully learn topics like Traditional Logic, Literary Analysis, and the Classics.
Should we suppose that the public school administrators who tell kids that it's okay to chop off your penis are not predators?

 

[Teghern]

I honestly can't get over this. They are eight and nine. I do not want someone who isn't me to explain pornography to them. I do not want them to be 'educated' about jacking off. I feel that this is a level of education beyond 'how your body works' and is entering the territory of sexuality and sexualised behaviour. I do not want someone else to give my children guidance about this.

I remember the fish talk well, they started with puddle dwellers and plants before moving on to (I am not joking) actual birds and bees, the bee-dick was very unimpressive.
If it's anything the same today it will be very clinical and most importantly very boring, best thing to do is what my parents did and have a comprehensive overview with them in advance and a sort of debrief after with the intent of defragmenting their little minds, my dad had the same concerns you do which is why he locked me in the kitchen and went into excruciating detail as to what a sperm is and how periods work is which thoroughly did the job of putting me off anything lewd related for a good while.

You should do the same, get mister isalaide in on it too, rest assured nothing the school can tell them will possibly have a stronger power than what you do, if you lay the right foundations now then even in a worst case faggot indoctrination scenario you'll have nothing to worry about.

 

[Android raptor]

Oh please, Christian schools are the only schools where children can meaningfully learn topics like Traditional Logic, Literary Analysis, and the Classics.
Should we suppose that the public school administrators who tell kids that it's okay to chop off your penis are not predators?

Don't forget teaching little girls it's ok for adult men to be in relationships with them

#notallchristianschools, but it's a lot, and the more conservative ones probably aren't going to provide kids with any useful info about sexual and reproductive health (which is a factor in CSA being so rampant in those communities, according to many survivors).

If this was a lesson being delivered to 12 or 13 year olds, I would feel differently. They are eight and nine. Most of their little friends still have a significant level of belief in Santa. I just feel unhappy introducing masturbation and pornography at school at this age. This feels like something I want to cover with them myself, and also I honestly don't feel they are ready for those conversations.

Plenty of kids have at least a vague idea of what both are by age 8.

Would you prefer your kids learning about porn by being shown it by a classmate (and not being taught that's not ok and they need to tell an adult)?

 

[MsFrancisFoster]

They will go to a Catholic secondary. Homeschooling is not an option; I don't believe I could bring them to the attainment level I want them at homeschooling a whole nest of them in the kitchen.

If this was a lesson being delivered to 12 or 13 year olds, I would feel differently. They are eight and nine. Most of their little friends still have a significant level of belief in Santa. I just feel unhappy introducing masturbation and pornography at school at this age. This feels like something I want to cover with them myself, and also I honestly don't feel they are ready for those conversations.

We are already dealing with the very early signs of puberty, and trying to do this sensitively and in a non-terrifying way. I don't think they are ready to do the human sexuality stuff yet. They understand how sex works. They advised it was "disgusting".

Minor Power Level: Just adding my two cents as someone who had precocious puberty: My mum sat me down when I was eight years old, when I got my first period, and very clinically told me how periods work. She explained what's going to happen with puberty, how sex works, how sex makes babies, and how condoms prevent babies and STDS. She explained it to me in a very no-nonsense way, and treated me like I was a small adult, but she was very calm about it. So it wasn't scary at all. So being pre-emptive about these things is the best course of action for you and tells your kids they can come to you for anything pertaining to these topics.

I think it's good to be open, honest, and clinical with children about bodily functions as they grow up. So they have the knowledge and the words to communicate the things that happen to them. It also helps them reinforce their autonomy as people in the long term, by being able to accurately tell on adults breaking those boundaries with them. But you have to be prepared to answer any curiosities or questions they may bring to you. As long as you don't shame your kids for asking questions, you should be fine long term, and it should help them be prepared for these things. You can know how these things work and still keep your childish innocence. Knowing how rainbows are made does not make rainbows any less magical, as my mum would say.

If the teachers make them uncomfortable, or you start hearing concerning things from your daughters about these classes, then that's when you start putting your foot down about it whole sale. Get other parents on board with you and bring it to the board of education with all the evidence you can gather. Not the teachers, not the principal, you go to the board itself. Always go above these people's heads and oust them to the folks in charge. Best course of action is to go to the top brass always and cut out the middleman in these sorts of things. They don't expect it or plan for it.

 

[Dysnomia]

(again, there are a saddening number of adult men especially that don't even know basic shit about the female reproductive system, including a disturbing amount of lawmakers).

There's guys who still think women can hold periods in until they use the bathroom. It's really important to teach boys what periods are. The ignorance never seems to get better with age.

The porn part of this lession seems to go in the direction of grooming awareness, which is important. Kids need it reinforced that if some perv tries to show them porn they need to tell their parents right away.