Jim Sterling / James "Stephanie" Sterling / James Stanton/Sexton & in memoriam TotalBiscuit (John Bain) - One Gaming Lolcow Thread

I think the big takeaway from me with all these show adaptations of games are they weren't made for fans.
I feel like this should be a "Duh" Moment but it also seems to sort of confuse people.

Fans of videogames buy videogames. Fans of TV shows watch TV shows. And I stand by this divide strongly - If you watch a lot of TV and play a lot of games, you're still often looking for VERY different narrative and media experiences from them, they're not simply interchangeable. These companies already got the fans to buy videogames, they're now trying to sell product to a new audience. Talks of crossover and multimedia exposure is copium from the existing audience, any franchise big enough to be worth crossing to either side of the divide is big enough that anyone who cares will know of it already, gaming and TV are both huge industries unlike the other common source material, books. And if you don't care, then you're exactly the audience they want, no expectations then.

The only reason they care at all about the fans of the original media in either direction is to try and turn them into free PR and advertising for the cross media product. They want you to express excitement for it and will say what they need to say, because then the actual target audience will see an 'organic reaction' and take it far better than they might a normal advert or sponsored element. They want you to cheer for some canonical accuracy or small detail they got right so normies think "oh this must be well written if people are praising a small aspect of a character/plot". They want to manipulate your actions and reactions into free buzz for them.
 
One of the issues I have with modern media franchises is the reason I quit watching anything MCU a fair bit before other people were dropping off, and it is one of those things that I know is killing the MCU when I talk to people about it, is the the fact there's two fucking much to keep track of to keep up with the thing you like. I tried to do the whole follow the entire MCU thing, there were too many characters I didn't give a fuck about so I tried to reduce myself down to just watching the movies featuring the characters I cared about and even then I couldn't keep up because by skipping a movie about someone I didn't give a shit about I was constantly at a loss of what's happening. The movies became incapable of existing on their own and then they started dragging the goddamn TV series into it. A movie is different from a TV series in quite a few ways and liking to watch one does not necessarily mean you want to watch the other. Yet Disney seems to think that I want to watch every single movie, regardless of the character, and every single TV series, regardless of who they are about, in some particular bullshit order that you will only naturally do if you're constantly on the bandwagon and watching it all as it comes out to construct a linear series of events because how everything is a tangled mess. So rather than watching some of the movies I, and I know others have made a similar decision, have decided to watch none of them.

When it comes to adapting video games, like the Fallout show, if they are going to actually make these shows canon and have an effect on the events that take place in future games people who want to follow those narratives now have to go and sit through a completely different form of media. That's the issue with this crossover shit. When it exists for a different audience over there that's fine, but when you are going to try and make it part of the same canon that's going to cause issues, because it's another thing you have to keep track of to understand why shit's on head in the next game.

It's similar to the shit show that is Halo under 343. Under Bungie there were essentially two books that were important to the larger plot that covered events not directly in the video games. The first is the Fall of Reach, which is a direct prequel to the first game, then there is another book whose name is escaping me at this moment that is a prequel to the Fall of Reach which covers what Master Chief's mission was that put him on ice for the start of Halo 1 and why he wasn't doing much during the Fall of Reach. I think there is another novel that covers how the Arbiter got to Earth between Halo 2 and Halo 3, but there's not really any questions of what is going on there as much as the prequel to Reach as that eventually got revised and turned into a game. The thing is I never felt the need to have to read any of these books to follow the plot of the Bungie games. Everything I needed to understand what was going on and what was relevant and how I got from point A to point B between games and missions was in the games. I needed a single media format to enjoy the story of John Halo turning a losing war against the Covenant into a victory for humanity and then punch the Flood in the face on his way out. Even the side games that are Reach, which was just a video game adaptation of a prequel novel as I previously mentioned, and ODST both can be understood in their larger context through just the games alone. Reach starts us with what we need to know, shows us what we need to see, and then at the end we see the Pillar of Autumn fly off to begin Halo 1. The context can be understood within the game. ODST takes place during events we saw another angle of in Halo 2, so it just all fits in fine within the context of the games.

Once we get to the 343 made games I do not fucking know how we go from one game to the next. Well I do because I have read all the fucking retarded books bridging them, but I shouldn't've had to. Halo 4 isn't too hard for me to wrap my head around how we got from Halo 3 to Halo 4. The Master Chief has been missing and on ice for years so him suddenly reappearing and being a bit confused with what's going on and immediately going into action is perfectly fine, we even see him wake up on camera and proceed to kick ass like it is nothing, it is a recurring trope of the series by that point. Chief goes into stasis, Chief wakes up, Chief kicks ass, game ends. He's a badass so let him do it, no issues. Then we get to Halo 5 and did you not read the various books that bridge the gap? Fuck you, you don't get to continue on with any understanding of how we got from Halo 4 to Halo 5 or why everything has gone crazy, the threat is never explained in game because the explanation is in the books. If you go from Halo 5 to Halo Infinite you are still going to be confused what the fuck is going on. You might have played the Halo Wars RTS games, which are a totally different genre from the FPS that the main Halo series is and therefore appeal to a different audience, which will give you a tiny bit of context but not enough. Most of the context of what is going on to set up Halo Infinite is found entirely different media formats in the form of books and short animations.

Please note: I'm not saying don't make a spin-off TV show. I'm not saying don't write a side-story in a novel. I just know that in the current climate of all of this bullshit they are going to do everything they can to try and force you to need to watch their fucking adaptations just to follow the basic flow of events, and therefore they will try to make this shit core content. They won't let it exist for a different audience, they will do all they can to make it something their core audience also has to go put up with to keep track of shit rather than letting it exist on its own. This stuff won't be a spin-off or side-story, it will be part of the main story and they won't put anything in the games to catch you up.

When it comes to making a movie about a game that is roughly covering the same events or is covering a disconnected set of events, just don't go pants on head stupid about it in a way that's insulting to the original game audience and keep your tone in line with the game. Also don't try to make it something that I need to go off and watch so I can follow the core plot of the video game series. Don't do that with movies, books, or other media either.

Despite what boomers like to think, video games are now one of the largest media forms out there. Even with a current rough spot they are kicking the ass out of TV and movies as far as the entertainment industry goes and have been for a while. They are officially mainstream. There is actually a good chance that the general TV audience has also played the popular mainstream video games in this day and age. There's a lot of guys in their fifties now who come home after work, play some of the most popular video games, eat dinner, and then sit on the couch to watch the most recent big thing TV show before going to bed. They then repeat this each day when they aren't busy with the wife, kids, and other obligations. These audiences aren't completely separate anymore and in many ways the TV shows are more merchandised to the games than anything and anybody who knows about where TV and movies make their money knows that it's merchandising. Don't think games aren't doing the same to their own degree. Things have flipped from games being merchandise for a show or movie to the show or movie being the merchandise for the game.

Also for full conspiracy theory: I think part of why Sony is making so many games that might as well be movies and not games is because they intend to adapt them into TV shows and movies later on if they get popular. Remember Sony has a film and TV branch. They can do it all in house and double dip.

EDIT: Rewrote some shit to actually make sense and communicate ideas I wrote when I had just woke up and was retarded at communicating.
 
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then there is another book whose name is escaping me at this moment that is a prequel to the Fall of Reach which covers what Master Chief's mission was that put him on ice for the start of Halo 1 and why he wasn't doing much during the Fall of Reach

The two books that "matter" are Fall of Reach, the prequel to CE that covers what mister chef is and why he and his blue computer girlfriend are at the big space circle, then First Strike, which takes him from being king of the ring to the start of Halo 2 and also attempts to explain why Johnson isn't dead after contracting space zombie AIDS on camera. He wasn't on Reach/was on ice because he did the space mission to keep the aliens from finding a map to Earth. There's some overlap with flashbacks to events in FoR in FS, whence comes the confusion.
 
I think the big takeaway from me with all these show adaptations of games are they weren't made for fans.
I think it's less that they're not made for the fans (although that's still a factor in a lot of them) and more that you simply can't translate a good game story into a good TV plot, especially with something like Fallout where the way the story unfolds and is experienced will be fairly unique to the player; trying to translate that into a one-size-fits-all linear plot is never going to work and is guaranteed to piss people off.

The only time it really works is something like the Mario movie, because Mario games have no plot.
It won't be until the show inevitably gets killed off that people will finally be able to admit it wasn't as good as they initially thought it was, just like most of these fucking shows.
I don't think they'll even bother, they'll instantly move onto next product and make that their new favourite thing ever (until their next favourite thing ever). Look how fast the defenders of the live-action Cowboy Bebop evaporated after that got shit-canned.

I'd say the most offensive thing about all these adaptations is how disposable they are. 30 years later people still talk about the live-action Mario Bros movie (for all the wrong reasons, but still) but in 2054 is anyone going to be talking about the Halo show? Is anyone talking about it now?
 
I think it's less that they're not made for the fans (although that's still a factor in a lot of them) and more that you simply can't translate a good game story into a good TV plot, especially with something like Fallout where the way the story unfolds and is experienced will be fairly unique to the player; trying to translate that into a one-size-fits-all linear plot is never going to work and is guaranteed to piss people off.

The only time it really works is something like the Mario movie, because Mario games have no plot.
You can do it if you tell a story in the world set up by the games, without trying to re-tell or retcon old stories. Just tell a new story. It can absolutely be done. But writers these days don't seem to understand you can tell a story in an extended world without having to spend 75% of your screentime going "wink wink nudge nudge" at all their very "clever" references.
 
One of the issues I have with modern media franchises is the reason I quit watching anything MCU a fair bit before other people were dropping off, and it is one of those things that I know is killing the MCU when I talk to people about it, is the the fact there's two fucking much to keep track of to keep up with the thing you like.
It's funny that the MCU didn't learn its lesson the first time it ran into this problem with Agents of Shield. The first five episodes were rough and people dropped off pretty quickly, myself included. We were told that this shit was going to be important, but many ignored the show and were still able to follow the movies with no problem. Apparently, the end of season two set up the start of Age of Ultron, but I didn't need to know how the Avengers tracked down a Hydra base with Loki's scepter, I just accepted they worked it out off screen and then got ready to watch a disappointing sequel.

What's even funnier is that this was a main criticism of the Star Wars prequels. Lucas left a lot of back story and character motivations to the books, including all the missions that bonded Obi-Wan and Anakin together. Hell, the start of Revenge of the Sith is a continuation of the Clone Wars cartoon the dude who made Samurai Jack did, which explains how Anakin became a Jedi Knight, who General Grievous is, why he's constantly coughing, and why Obi-Wan and Anakin weren't around to stop him earlier. And that was twenty fucking years ago.

Yes, these days it's easier to find media, but you still need to put in work to watch it in the right order. I watched the Netflix Marvel shows, but I had to keep track of which season to watch when. There was no 'box set' playlist where I could just watch everything in order. Hell, I can't even do this with Star Wars or the MCU on Disney +, which is stupid if you ask me. If you want people to keep watching a franchise, just put it in their playlist and they'll keep watching it because it's the next thing and they don't have to think about when they need to watch it.
 
You can do it if you tell a story in the world set up by the games, without trying to re-tell or retcon old stories. Just tell a new story. It can absolutely be done. But writers these days don't seem to understand you can tell a story in an extended world without having to spend 75% of your screentime going "wink wink nudge nudge" at all their very "clever" references.
That's true, but I think there also comes a point where if you're going to tell a story completely removed from the games, just come up with a new IP entirely. It's one thing to do something like the Mario movie, where those games have no plots only characters that you can then use in a story of your own creation, but if you're gonna do a Fallout show without referencing any of the existing Fallout stuff why not just make your own post-apocalyptic show?

It's not like bunkers, mutants and wastelands are concepts wholly unique to Fallout; that's basically also Mad Max and every straight-to-video knock off of Mad Max.
 
It's not like bunkers, mutants and wastelands are concepts wholly unique to Fallout; that's basically also Mad Max and every straight-to-video knock off of Mad Max.
It's more so telling a story with the lore and creatures of Fallout without using the hard stories of 3, 4 and NV. Contrary to what Hollywood and the Gaming industry want to think, there's more to the USA than the coastlines and Texas, and fallout doesn't HAVE to take place in America. Amazon could have made Fallout: Viva La Mexico.
 
That's true, but I think there also comes a point where if you're going to tell a story completely removed from the games, just come up with a new IP entirely. It's one thing to do something like the Mario movie, where those games have no plots only characters that you can then use in a story of your own creation, but if you're gonna do a Fallout show without referencing any of the existing Fallout stuff why not just make your own post-apocalyptic show?

It's not like bunkers, mutants and wastelands are concepts wholly unique to Fallout; that's basically also Mad Max and every straight-to-video knock off of Mad Max.
I just want to point out, Fallout has a lot of lore for the West, but minimal for the East. There's certain reasons related to how Todd views the concept of background lore and World building outside of the events that happened strictly in game that are to blame, he takes the idea that "only what happens on screen exists" to the point of it being a negative for the world building of the settings he is currently chaperoning and creating. There are many stories that have gotten out over the years of him stifling creativity because people want to try and flesh out a part of the setting by writing backstory and he tells them to throw it out because the player isn't seeing it directly. The other part of it is bethesda is incredibly lazy and they didn't bother building up what they needed to in the east coast to bring it to a comparable state of world building as the West Coast had before they dumped three games there.

That's said, a setting like Fallout has enough room that you can flesh out a world without needing to directly connect it the exact events of a game. Bethesda is obsessed with always moving the timeline forward, even when they could very safely move it backwards and not cause any conflicts due to distance or simply just needing to skirt around certain details, but the thing is is the East Coast has very little history written for it. When you read a timeline of the events of the Fallout universe, it's almost entirely for the West Coast with very brief statements of very minor things happening on the East Coast. A show would be a good time to fill that out. That's actually a really good use for spin-off media. To fill in some gaps that the primary media left around because it didn't have the space to fill it.

I think that quite a lot of people would be really into the idea of a show that was about what life was like in the DC wasteland before the lone wanderer showed up trying to find his dad, as it is the capital of the US and it's a fairly blank slate that the only thing you have to do is make sure that certain pieces are in place so that the game would be able to happen after the show. You could even do a story that takes place shortly before Fallout 4 with many familiar characters and actually fleshing out some of that history and showing how things got to that state. You could set up nearby locations that we hear about but never get fleshed out. There's a lot more empty space in the East Coast that needs filling than there is space that needs to be cleared out on the west coast. Not only that but of the four modern Fallout games, The only one on the west coast is NV. The rest are East Coast games. Not only that, but the one that normies actually know is Fallout 4. It would be more familiar to your average person who really only has a casual interest in Fallout because they picked up the game because it was by the people that made Skyrim and it had the big E3 trailer. A prequel would let you do all kinds of stuff that had those casuals hoinking and cheering at the thing they know being there.

And the thing is, you don't even need to go backwards you could go forwards and start setting things up for the next game on the East Coast. You could do a story about finally getting a new nation on the East Coast going. You could even just put it in Virginia long after 76 because that game takes place practically 200 years before anything out on the East Coast. Yes, that would be recognizing 76 exists, but it's a place where you could earn some redemption points from the hardcore fans and the new audience wouldn't have the context of why the hardcore fans would be iffy about it. You could even give a sequel to one of the game locations that let us see what it looks like 10 years after the fact.

There's a lot you can do without attaching it directly to a game that would still provide benefit to the larger franchise that includes the games. There is room to build up when they have chosen to destroy.
 
I perhaps controversially think one of the best things they could have adapted from the Fallout series was Fallout Tactics.

The Chicago splinter faction of the Brotherhood of Steel featured in Tactics are the most interesting part of the group, and the story that Tactics told was decently interesting, while being simple enough to translate well to TV, and isolated enough from the rest of the canon that they can't fuck it up too much.
 
Personally I couldn't care less about the TV show. I rarely ever watch TV as it is and I've understood for a long time that video games rarely translate well into movies/shows, if ever. I like Fallout 1, 2, Tactics, and NV and I ignore everything else because Todd Howard can't even keep his own interpretations of his lore correct, and he continues to water down every new game he makes for less player choice and more friendly to journos/instant win gratification players. I love Oblivion, but even Oblivion is missing a massive amount of player freedom/weapons/customization that Morrowind had. I've never beaten Fallout 4 or Skyrim because you're not allowed to do anything because everyone is marked as an essential character, and I never touched 76 because online only. I'm sure the show fills a niche for a specific group of people, I'm clearly not the target audience though.
 
You should try Starfield were even nameless NPCs are marked as essential and an entire city of immortals will light you up for shooting one in the head.
Starfield? You mean the game so shit that even the modders who are senselessly loyal to Bethesda can't care enough about to fix?
 
Starfield? You mean the game so shit that even the modders who are senselessly loyal to Bethesda can't care enough about to fix?
I think Sseth pointed out in his review that he tried to finish a side quest by killing the side quest giver because all the other options he was given were crap, and he wasn't allowed to do that as they all did their janky "fall on their ass for a few minutes before getting back up" that Bethesda has become accustomed to overusing. I have to question why starfield, and even new elder scrolls/fallout games, are even "open world" when the devs try so hard to lock players into a "yes/no/maybe" option for every single quest. I guess it gives the "I won't go back to try Morrowind because muh graphics/I don't have a quest marker" crowd a false sense of choice, but the types of stories Todd wants to tell seems more fitting for mission to mission style games similar to old CoD campaigns (not sure what CoD does now as I haven't touched one of those since MW3) rather than this odd design Bethesda has become known for. Then again, there's people out there who have purchased Skyrim more than once so I guess it's working.
 
I think Sseth pointed out in his review that he tried to finish a side quest by killing the side quest giver because all the other options he was given were crap, and he wasn't allowed to do that as they all did their janky "fall on their ass for a few minutes before getting back up" that Bethesda has become accustomed to overusing. I have to question why starfield, and even new elder scrolls/fallout games, are even "open world" when the devs try so hard to lock players into a "yes/no/maybe" option for every single quest. I guess it gives the "I won't go back to try Morrowind because muh graphics/I don't have a quest marker" crowd a false sense of choice, but the types of stories Todd wants to tell seems more fitting for mission to mission style games similar to old CoD campaigns (not sure what CoD does now as I haven't touched one of those since MW3) rather than this odd design Bethesda has become known for. Then again, there's people out there who have purchased Skyrim more than once so I guess it's working.
I'll defend Todd on one point, he gets a lot of undue blame for story elements as well as quest details. He really only sets the guidelines that everyone is supposed to follow and sends most his day signing off on concepts and reading progress reports. He's incredibly big picture at this point . The reality is the last game he truly headed up was Oblivion. Since then it has been very overwhelmingly Emil with Todd trying to just get it out the door. Especially with story direction. Emil also really wants the players to be the good guy no matter what. In Oblivion this happened mostly due to the faction crunch, as the disk space limit for voice acting demanded such, but previously the problem was avoided by having a more villainist and less villainist factions in Morrowind. Oblivion is a technical limitation crunched game, but under Emil the studio is very focused on always being the good guy and the chosen one, seen not only in the lack of evil committment in the writing, but also the fact they are preventing things like becoming a spree killer in Starfield. A game which due to narrative reasons can afford to let you commit any atrocity you want. Isaac can't actually block you off from content until the first time you finish the main quest.

We know that Skyrim's surplus of essential characters is due to a planned feature in the form of inheritance never happening and the design for how quests, characters, and scripting worked getting screwed over by inheritance getting scrapped, though this took years of employees who left the company explaining the issues and reality of the company.

Properly most of the essential NPCs are supposed to be protected not essential, with final hit needing to be the player to kill. Also once an NPC has no outstanding quests you're supposed to clear theor essential and protected flags, which never gets done. The thing is Bethesda's terrible work flow got in the way of this. Anyone can make a quest, even the fucking janitor, and that includes making any needed characters or adding to any existing characters what is needed. This means people decide their quest is SO important their NPCs must be made essential. This also lacks oversight so no one is following behind this or keeping shit straight to avoid weird conflicts or clear unneeded or misapplied flags.

This continues into FO4, because they got used to it in Skyrim except in FO4 they were slightly better with giving out protected to NPCs, but essential is still over used.

Starfield is a barely functional mess. I suspect that all of the essential NPCs are trying to cover up the fact the game would fall apart without them as well as to just stop the player from being a spree killer so that they can have the moral high ground at certain story points without anyone on the internet being able to point out the dissonance between the writing and their actions.
 
I have to question why starfield, and even new elder scrolls/fallout games, are even "open world" when the devs try so hard to lock players into a "yes/no/maybe" option for every single quest.
A lot of it is talent and lack of oversight. While some of the quest designers are pretty good, a lot of them are very much not, at this point, and there doesn't seem to be much of a review process for what does get in. Those more lacking in talent can't be arsed to tell a story the player can interact with, they're obsessed over telling their story, the player is just the third wheel butting in. There's a big difference between quests the player actively participates in, rather than quests the player simply facilitates.
 
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In Oblivion this happened mostly due to the faction crunch, as the disk space limit for voice acting demanded such, but previously the problem was avoided by having a more villainist and less villainist factions in Morrowind.
Honestly fully VAing RPGs unless you do BG3 levels of work is a mistake, as it too strongly limits what the studio can do with player choice, which is a problem in genre defined by player choice.
 
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Odds that Jim will pull his thumb out and do a Helldivers video? Even though he didn't like the game, the current saga ticks all of his boxes.

For those not in the know, Helldivers 2 is a cross-platform game between PS5 and Steam. PC players had no requirements for crossplay, but recently, Sony shat the bed and announced that Steam users will need to link a PSN account. This is a problem because not only are Sony legendarily bad at data protection, PSN isn't actually offered in any of the regions Helldivers 2 is sold in, effectively making the game unplayable for them. The official advice varied between "We don't know" and "Break TOS with fake PSN accounts". Allegedly this was always going to be the plan and they simply postponed it due the launch issues the game had.

The community made their displeasure known quite strongly, review bombing the otherwise much loved game (except by Jim) to make recent reviews Overwhelmingly Negative. Steam delisted it in several places due to the sheer amount of refund requests. The risk to Sony's bottom line became too great, and they reversed the decision today.

In theory, it fits Jim's MO very well. Plucky small game company being stepped on by big corporations and Capitalism, community shows them the error of their ways. On the other hand, he might not be able to tolerate The Gamers™ getting a win, especially for a game he doesn't like. I'm sure he could paint the people review bombing and such as whiny manchildren having a tantrum.
 
Odds that Jim will pull his thumb out and do a Helldivers video? Even though he didn't like the game, the current saga ticks all of his boxes.
Personally I think he's going to use his previous video defending retcons to springboard into the bigger (and more politically charged) controversy of the Femstodes in 40k, I'd be surprised if he does a video on the situation with HD2 and Sony because he's always said boycotts don't work and in way they have this time. He'd have egg on his face for being proven wrong and he'd have to give praise to the Gamers™ for being an effective force pushing for consumer rights.
 
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