Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

Putin is not interested in a negotiated settlement.

Has one been offered to him?

So far the only peace proposal from Ukraine was Zelensky's 10-point peace formula which is still being presented as non-negotiable and involves Russian unconditional surrender in everything but name (withdrawing all troops, surrendering Crimea and paying reparations without any sanctions being lifted).

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Putin just wants to save his boyfriend from embarrassment if they lose

I think Putin is saving him from the embarrassment already incurred. 2-year long 2-week shitstorm, all under Shoigu. He's a fucking reindeer herder playing a military man, having never even served, way out of his depth.
Putin wants to get shit done, but it's hard when you gave every meaningful government position to your close friends. Self-enrichment always came before governing, something they evidently have no qualifications for. Let alone waging a war against someone capable of defending themselves - Ukraine was supposed to be bullied into submission by their overwhelming strength, after all. This is uncharted waters.

People are far more aware of what position of the minister of defense entails, his new position doesn't mean much to a common person, and so he won't be bearing any responsibility for the war from this point onward.
I think Putin realized that Shoigu isn't going to resolve this. Whether his replacement will be able to remains to be seen, but they're probably expendable in comparison to his close friend (Stalin would've just shot him). Putin is a paranoid autocrat, his pool of trusted people that he'd be willing to give power to is likely very small, so I would imagine it's always going to be a factor - I don't expect the most qualified people to be in the positions that matter. They're a bunch of glorified gangsters, not statesmen.

Has one been offered to him?

So far the only peace proposal from Ukraine was Zelensky's 10-point peace formula which is still being presented as non-negotiable and involves Russian unconditional surrender in everything but name (withdrawing all troops, surrendering Crimea and paying reparations without any sanctions being lifted).

Putin: "Give me everything I want"
Zelensky: "No"
You: "That's unreasonable!"

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

Putin: "Give me everything I want"
Zelensky: "No"
You: "That's unreasonable!"

Zelensky: "Give me everything I want"
Putin: "No".
You: "That's unreasonable!"

The state of modern international diplomacy, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

Zelensky: "Give me everything I want"
Putin: "No".
You: "That's unreasonable!"

You think you're clever, but that was entirely predictable
You're overlooking the fact that Putin broke into Zelensky's house, demanding his shit, not the other way around
Putting this in the context of home invasion, so that even someone like you would be able to understand

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

You think you're clever, but that was entirely predictable
You're overlooking the fact that Putin broke into Zelensky's house, demanding his shit, not the other way around

The original question was whether anything other than unconditional surrender had been offered to Putin.

The answer is "no", unless you consider unconditional surrender to be reasonable. Which is, to be fair, also entirely predictable.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

The original question was whether anything other than unconditional surrender had been offered to Putin.

The answer is "no", unless you consider unconditional surrender to be reasonable. Which is, to be fair, also entirely predictable.

Surrender? For Russia it's relinquishing something they have no right to in the first place. For Ukraine it's giving up what's theirs to an invader. It's a war of conquest, surrender has a different meaning for each side. How are you so dense?

Putin isn't reasonable to begin with, starting this war was unreasonable, so is acting like he's entitled to make such demands. For all intents and purposes, he's a criminal. You don't negotiate with the nigger breaking into your house, you shoot them in the face. Ukraine having to make any sort of concessions would already be unjust to them, don't you get it?

 

[Sister Miriam Godwinson]

Surrender? For Russia it's relinquishing something they have no right to in the first place. For Ukraine it's giving up what's theirs to an invader. It's a war of conquest, surrender has a different meaning for each side. How are you so dense?

It is a war of conquest indeed.

Note that I am not saying it is righteous or justified. What I am saying is that hoping the invader suddenly stops invading. goes home and pays you reparations because you said he must is not reasonable.

 

[teriyakiburns]

It is a war of conquest indeed.

Note that I am not saying it is righteous or justified. What I am saying is that hoping the invader suddenly stops invading. goes home and pays you reparations because you said he must is not reasonable.

It's perfectly reasonable to demand an aggressor cease his aggression and make whole what he destroyed. It isn't a matter of hope.

 

[World in Scarlet]

The original question was whether anything other than unconditional surrender had been offered to Putin.

Yeah, did you not read about the negotiations back in 2022? The issue was that Putin is a liar who doesn't hold to treaties, so it's pointless to sign one with his government absent third party enforcement. NATO countries were unwilling to provide such in early 2022 and so the negotiations ended.

Since then Russia has refused to attend, much less participate in negotiations, and it requires both parties to negotiate a settlement.

People go into negotiations with maximalist positions and then compromise during the proceedings. Giving up claims beforehand weakens the own negotiating position for no gain.
The Russia demand has been unconditional surrender and absorption of Ukraine into Russia, followed by genocidal policies with the aim of destroying Ukrainian ethnic identity, which is far, far less reasonable than the Ukrainian "go home and live in peace".

It's also curious that you complain about reparations when Putin himself claims that hundreds of billions will be spent on reconstructing occupied territories of Ukraine. How much will actually arrive in Ukraine is another question, but either way the money is leaving Russian public coffers.

Edit: That's a lot of negotiating, but I can't be bothered.

 

[TJT]

Surrender? For Russia it's relinquishing something they have no right to in the first place. For Ukraine it's giving up what's theirs to an invader. It's a war of conquest, surrender has a different meaning for each side. How are you so dense?

Putin isn't reasonable to begin with, starting this war was unreasonable, so is acting like he's entitled to make such demands. For all intents and purposes, he's a criminal. You don't negotiate with the nigger breaking into your house, you shoot them in the face. Ukraine having to make any sort of concessions would already be unjust to them, don't you get it?

Cool story bro. Fight the good fight until you cannot make terms at all and you have no choice but to unconditionally surrender. But please continue haranguing about now much of a bully Putin is and how wrong he was.

That'll show him in the end.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

To all 9 of you who reported that post containing over 7000 Niggers; you can rest easy. I boardbanned the user for a month

 

[DumbDude43]

The answer is "no", unless you consider unconditional surrender to be reasonable. Which is, to be fair, also entirely predictable.

nobody is asking for unconditional surrender you clown
zelensky isn't demanding to take over moscow, dismantle the russian military, and subjugate the russian state to ukrainian rule

what's being asked for is a white peace, status quo ante bellum

 

[teriyakiburns]

To all 9 of you who reported that post containing over 7000 Niggers; you can rest easy. I boardbanned the user for a month

Only 7000? God damn lazy faggot couldn't even go for the meme number.

 

[Useful_Mistake]

Only 7000?

7157 to be precise.

 

[Mikoyan]

Only 7000? God damn lazy faggot couldn't even go for the meme number.

I think Jersh would have to make a code change for that to be possible.

 

[Snekposter]

That's more so because Shtora was meant to defeat ITOWs and Konkurs/Fagots not TOW-2s which have an additional wavelength tracker in order to counteract such systems and improve environmental reliability, but yeah Shtora is obsolete

The USA had turned one of Russia's chief electronics designers, Adolf Tolkachev, and so we got handed all of the Shtora data he did starting in 1980, a full 13 years before Russia put it into production. TOW-2 entered service in 1983, Shtora in 1993, so the dazzling system had already been obsolete for a decade when it finally got put on vehicles.

We also had the head of GRU, GRU being the USSR's military intelligence agency, working for us for the low, low price of $3,000 a year in power tools and outdoor equipment. And one of the designers at Mikoyan-Guerivich who handed us specs on every Russian plane that came across his desk. People like to talk up the KGB and Aldritch Ames but he cost the USSR 4.6 million dollars. A small price to pay for what he handed over, to be fair, but hardly as cost-effective as the USA's own spying efforts.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

It is a war of conquest indeed.

Note that I am not saying it is righteous or justified. What I am saying is that hoping the invader suddenly stops invading. goes home and pays you reparations because you said he must is not reasonable.

Gotcha. But that's why they're fighting, hoping to drive them away or at least secure better terms if it comes to that, because Putin won't compromise on his absurd initial demands. I don't blame Ukraine for not wanting to bend over, and I think it's ridiculous for anyone to hold that against them, which is what a lot of "anti-war" Westerners do, somehow shifting the blame for prolonging this on them. Putin could stop this at any moment.

Ukraine doesn't really have much choice here. Giving Putin what he wants won't make them safe, since one of the conditions is that they stay "neutral", meaning vulnerable, by promising to never enter NATO, which consequently is the only meaningful way for Ukraine to obtain real security. Judging by Putin's rhetoric and general vatnik sentiment, his sights are ultimately set on Ukraine as a whole. He's not settling for Donbas currently because that was the goal all along, he's downscaling (aka coping). Agreeing to his demands as is just leave Ukraine open for another invasion, as well as set a precedent that one can get away with this shit.
Their goal is likely to at least deny Putin as many potential gains as possible before the moment of serious negotiations comes. You can bet your ass Putin will claim whatever land Russians forces managed to occupy by then, and it's unlikely he'll concede on that.

Morality of the question aside, it's a fight of David against Goliath. It's very likely Ukraine will have to compromise eventually, so the least they can do is secure better conditions for when that moment arrives. In the end, there's no benefit to just rolling over, because that would mean subjugation.

Jannying

Did you delete all the recent posts? I put a lot of effort in those, man.
Are we not allowed to argue or something? What is this?

 

[Useful_Mistake]

Are we not allowed to argue or something?

The other side of the argument is bad talking Zelensky, and repeating some of the talking points about negotiated settlements. On the same note, I had received a report that at least one person here considered that whole discussion a breach. The responses to the discussion seem to be in the same vein.

While I certainly think it is an important conversation to have, you all have to resolve amongst yourselves if that is something you want to have. To that end; anyone who wants to have that conversation rate this post with a "agree", if you don't "disagree." I'll check in in 24 hours and abide by the thread's decision. As a preliminary matter, I have restored the deleted comments.

 

[Astro Galactic Megalul]

The other side of the argument is bad talking Zelensky, and repeating some of the talking points about negotiated settlements. On the same note, I had received a report that at least one person here considered that whole discussion a breach. The responses to the discussion seem to be in the same vein.

While I certainly think it is an important conversation to have, you all have to resolve amongst yourselves if that is something you want to have. To that end; anyone who wants to have that conversation rate this post with a "agree", if you don't "disagree." I'll check in in 24 hours and abide by the thread's decision. As a preliminary matter, I have restored the deleted comments.

Some people here are too damn sensitive smh
That person seemed to listen to opposing arguments at least, instead of just spouting the usual zigger drivel
These threads get long, some things get repeated, but it's worth to reiterate it for new people IMO, which something conversations like this allow. Thank you for your work
I said my piece, I'll be interested to hear if others consider it useful or would rather just prefer this thread to be more focused on news and their discussion

 

[Fuck It We'll Do It Live]

No future mobilizations of Ziggers (don't worry, crossthreadposters, you're safe for now. Your office handlers still require your company); Belousov says Russia must win in Ukraine while minimising casualties

But there was no need for another mass call-up of Russian troops, he said. Putin ordered a mobilisation of 300,000 reservists in late 2022, in an unpopular move that prompted hundreds of thousands of Russians to flee the country to avoid being drafted.

Another top Russian Defense Ministry official is arrested on bribery charges amid Kremlin shake-up

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