Game Developers of Kiwi Farms

[Coolio55]

Using the C language is a good way to ensure that he never learns how to properly program.

Make sure to use the paid ada compiler (a few thousand plus tip) that hooks onto the giant C++ backend that does all the real work.

For reference, garbage collection was created to serve Lisp, and all of this predates the C language. So, make certain that this old-fashioned way is actually old-fashioned, and not simply stupid.

Because in the good old days you were 100% writing mario in a gc'd langauge and not C or C++. (And we're talking powerful PC platforms here. Not consoles that almost always used raw ASM)
Yes. It was used in a few PS2 games as a scripting system to interface with the C++ bedrock, so was Lua.

The best system for expressing a game depends on the game. Never forget that glaring performance issues with GTA Online were caused directly by the C language and its asinine view of strings:

Never forget that R* not being arsed to write a proper parser is 100% C's fault.
Instead, start using a language that copies around giant arrays for basic operations by design.

I meant don't think in terms of files. Think in terms of data structures. Also, I was approaching this from the mindset of old video game systems which truly had no files whatsoever. They're not inherent to the problem, so don't put them front and center.

Data serialization is for pussy C programmers. Everything should be some bloated proprietary image format.

 

[Dull Pencil]

Real retro hardware is rare and valuable.

The games maybe, but the popular consoles are very affordable.

They also all but require knowledge of things like 6502 assembly.

Not really. Today there are plenty of dev kits that allows you to do much without coding while allowing devs to add their own stuff through C.

Here are some examples. Check it out, it looks really interesting.

https://github.com/Stephane-D/SGDK This was used to make Xeno Crisis.

https://nes-starter-kit.nes.science Free NES kit.

https://www.thenew8bitheroes.com Paid one that allows you to put your game on carts.

 

[X Prime]

I get that, but this mythical proper way of learning to code evades me, and the few answers I get are some online course that costs triple digits to start.

Ha, the same exact kind of thing happens with digital art now.

This sort of thing:

"How do you achieve a specific effect?"

"I used a paid-for auto-action/plugin/tutorial, and no I will not tell you which one or clearly articulate that fact. PS I hate AI art."

I will say it: marketplaces that allow non-optional monetization of tutorials like Patreon, Gumroad, and so on are mistakes.

 

[Grub]

This is largely due to modern tools. Yeah, old games used assembly out of necessity, but there did exist games that didn't. Sonic Pinball was famously written in C and has performance issues as a result. However, modern compilers are more efficient. There's a guy making a Mario 64 romhack that is famous for his various optimizations and bug fixes of Mario 64. Taking the game from 20fps to 60fps on real hardware.

I mentioned GBStudio in the OP, and I've seen autists get mad that the roms it makes are 128k. GB games were 32k-256k, depending on the cartridge with most companies preferring the 32k carts because they were cheaper.

You're not writting in assembly. You're writting in something more readable (or even drag and drop if you're using templates) and having the computer do the work of turning it into machine code. Is that cheating? Yes. But so did devs back then. Sprite art changed from drawing on graph paper and typing those coordinates into code, to having art programs where you drew with a mouse.

Where is the line drawn on this? Are modern textures allowed? Do we have to use 90s texture CDs and Silicone Graphics workstations? Or should we get super accurate and have programers work in shifts because the publisher could only afford a single computer and the only tutorials were a maths text book and some books on programming theory from the 70s?

I feel like I missed something in this conversation. I thought this thread was about general game dev but everyone seems to keep talking about tools to emulate development from 30 years ago.

 

[Lurking no more]

I've always wanted to make a game, and while I suppose I know more coding than the average person (not that that's much of an accomplishment), I have absolutely no idea how to make a computer actually do anything with graphics or sound. The other problem is that I have no artistic skills whatsoever, so I'd have to be teaching myself how to draw simultaneously with how to program something deeper than basic statistics in python or scripting something for an already made game.

 

[Pepe Cortisona]

Ok, I have decided to download GBStudio after work and try to do a shitty project just for fun. One question thought, is the MIT license compatible with the +NIGGER one?

I feel like I missed something in this conversation. I thought this thread was about general game dev but everyone seems to keep talking about tools to emulate development from 30 years ago.

I believe that the ones that actually have industry connections don't want to fully share details seeing how woke video game development have become.

 

[Creative Username]

I have absolutely no idea how to make a computer actually do anything with graphics or sound.

You have to pick something, anything. If you like C and want your game to run really close to the OS, use SDL. If you want a scripting language and a dedicated game engine that will do a bunch of shit for you and make things easy, try Godot. If you want something simple that works in a web page, try something like three.js with JavaScript. You can make a game in any language if you can find a function that gets keyboard input and another function that plots pixels. And don't worry if you use something and don't like it. You can switch between programming languages as you see fit. If Python sucks for something, learn to use a language that doesn't suck for that task. Most programming languages are pretty similar.

You mentioned Python. Try searching for "python game library". You might find something nice. Then you can pivot from basic statistics to drawing a ball bouncing off the edges of the screen, and you can then turn that into a basic Pong clone. A basic Pong clone might not sound like much, but you'll probably end up with a better idea of what you need to make an actual game.

 

[DumbDude43]

I have absolutely no idea how to make a computer actually do anything with graphics or sound.

it depends a lot what OS and what programming language you are using, and what you want to do

you can learn a lot from just watching someone do a simple project like this and following along:

this uses c++ with raylib, but you can 100% find similar examples for most other languages

 

[Involuntary Celebrity]

Listen to but never believe players. Completely ignore developer folk wisdom, especially about game design.

Since we're all bringing up engines, I just want to whip out my big hateboner for how much Clickteam sucks my spider balls.
(This is the killer one) Extremely hard to make multiple levels unless you copy and paste code (that doesn't update when you change any other instances).
Integer numbers only.
The programming system is very confused on whether an object refers to a single specific instance or every instance of that object.

There's actually a logic to this stuff, but it's a fucking mess and none of it is communicated to the user. It's absolutely 100% not worth the effort to learn the ins and outs of Clickteam's garbage software when you could be devoting that to literally anything else--I have nothing against making shit in high-level game engines; I think the path of least resistance to getting your ideas working is a valid approach, it's just that Clickteam software specifically is a fucking trap and they know it.
- Global objects with their own event sheets let you avoid copypasting code (but global objects themselves are fucking broken in ways that require more arcane knowledge to avoid, like never saving or quickrunning the project with the event sheet open lest the globals in different frames desync from one another).
- Float arithmetic is possible, but you need to have constants with a decimal place in the formula or it'll default to integer logic. That means sometimes literally needing to stick "*1.0" or something on the end if the expression didn't need a constant. At least it doesn't still calculate with fucking Polish logic or whatever the fuck Klik n Play used to have.
- Object referencing is scoped by either the event triggers or certain actions like creating an object. The event order also matters, but it is consistent. It is also fucking stupid and the only way to know how to set up an event is from experience or trial-and-error, however.

The reason this is all so retarded despite Clickteam being around for so long is because they're running a scam and do not give a shit. "Clickteam Fusion" is just a reskin of Multimedia Fusion, which is a reskin of The Games Factory, which as far as I know is an update of something called Click & Create.
The only difference between them is minor shit like modern video support and a few new blending effects, and integration of community extension functionality (they just pay off the devs, and have hired one or two of them over the years as their gimps to do the actual integration work--one of whom got so sick of their shit he launched his own competitor product, although unfortunately he adopted a Clickteam-style greedy business model himself so it can't really be recommended either).

Did I mention they consider each "version 2" of these to be a new product? MMF 2.0 (new blending effects and loops that used to be an extension, no other real changes) was released as a full product too. For like three hundred bucks or something, existing owners get fucked.
Clickteam Fusion 2.5 update? Paid DLC. And I think it's like a thousand bucks total if you want the full package. Never mind that it's a pile of barely-functioning dogshit that absolutely isn't easier than just regular coding with a sprite framework.

I mean it is that too, but that's why I hate them.

 

[❤️ Rivet ❤️]

You mentioned Python. Try searching for "python game library". You might find something nice.

Pygame is a simple, easy python wrapper for SDL2. It's a good place to start and there's tons of guides and example code.

A basic Pong clone might not sound like much

It's a good start. Drawing to the screen, user input, basic hitboxs/collision detection, possibly basic score keeping.
If you can implement pong you have most of the basic skills you need to start making more complex games.

The first game I wrote was pong using mode 13h and keyboard interrupts.

Using the C language is a good way to ensure that he never learns how to properly program.

Anyone who says "start with C" in 2024 is setting you up for failure. Don't listen to programming purists and remember one of the best selling games of all time, Minecraft, was written in a language that is absolutely awful for game development.

Use whatever you're comfortable with, every (modern) language has SDL bindings at a minimum.

 

[UERISIMILITUDO]

Make sure to use the paid ada compiler (a few thousand plus tip) that hooks onto the giant C++ backend that does all the real work.

Watch out, things aren't going to look pretty if we start going to old stereotypes. I use GNAT, which is part of GCC.

Because in the good old days you were 100% writing mario in a gc'd langauge and not C or C++.

Back in the good old days, these games were written in an assembler language. The development of Super Mario 64 used the C language, sure, and also used Lisp development tools heavily:

https://franz.com/success/customer_apps/animation_graphics/nichimen.lhtml

Nowadays, the C or C++ languages are used for 3D work, but that's only because the problem is now well understood after several decades.

Never forget that R* not being arsed to write a proper parser is 100% C's fault.

Yeah, I get it. Whenever the C language causes abysmal performance due to its inherent characteristics, that's because the programmer didn't use enough magic pixie dust, or he didn't believe hard enough. Just ignore that the C language makes it incredibly easy to write code with quadratic time complexity that looks like it has linear time complexity. The proper mindset is to understand that performance is not an inherent characteristic of a language that has both a standard and multiple implementations. Sure, Python is slow because it's made by idiots, has no standard, and one implementation matters the most, but not every language is like this. The proper mindset is to understand that the program must be written to be fast, and it's much easier to do it in some languages than others.

Instead, start using a language that copies around giant arrays for basic operations by design.

At least the C++ fuckwits appear to be obsessed with performance beyond all reason.
Nooo, I need to add ten thousand lines of code to avoid a very small copy somewhere!
Nooooo, I need to know the cache line size at compile time!

Data serialization is for pussy C programmers. Everything should be some bloated proprietary image format.

I don't understand this complaint, but I can criticize it. The concept of bloat on modern machines is insane. Sure, there's WWW nonsense that's inefficient as hell, but what the fuck does bloated mean on a modern computer? Use an old machine, in which case the data will be stored directly in memory that happens to be battery-backed, or shut up about fucking bloat. To make an analogy, so many people want to pretend they're homesteading in a fucking apartment complex.

I thought this thread was about general game dev but everyone seems to keep talking about tools to emulate development from 30 years ago.

It is, but it happens to be so miserable that people would rather use tools and systems from decades ago.

At least it doesn't still calculate with fucking Polish logic or whatever the fuck Klik n Play used to have.

Take that back. Polish notation, and especially reverse Polish notation, is awesome.

 

[DumbDude43]

@UERISIMILITUDO
you could tell people to write games in holyC for templeOS and it would be less schizophrenic than whatever the fuck you are going on about here

 

[UERISIMILITUDO]

@UERISIMILITUDO
you could tell people to write games in holyC for templeOS and it would be less schizophrenic than whatever the fuck you are going on about here

I've had my say. I'll take a break from the thread for a few pages now.

 

[Coolio55]

@Involuntary Celebrity You've put it way better than I've ever seen online. Thank you.
As Involuntary Celibacy said: Clickteam is a SCAM. It's a trap.

The real horror is that most people using Clickteam don't know this. They don't know that its backwards design is completely arbitrary and doesn't need to be this way.
THIS is why you should have at least vague knowledge of "real" programming. It doesn't need to be fancy. Just a few Python or Lua or Ruby (or hell even Javascript) scripts and you can crapbust stuff like this from a mile away. I think even RPG Maker 2003 or the visual scripting in Game Maker will tip you off that this shit simply doesn't fly anywhere else.

I'm lucky I've never used it for any serious work, I just have a perverse interest in old fangames/indie games; and before Game Maker - THIS was what you were stuck with.

Also, the rabbithole goes deeper. It goes all the way back to "Klik and Play", a DOS/Win 3.1 application ...and it's all been hacks on top since!

You see. THIS is why we use KiwiFarms. Any other forum: you'd get instabanned for talk like this.

Back in the good old days, these games were written in an assembler language. The development of Super Mario 64 used the C language, sure, and also used Lisp development tools heavily:
https://franz.com/success/customer_apps/animation_graphics/nichimen.lhtml Nowadays, the C or C++ languages are used for 3D work, but that's only because the problem is now well understood after several decades.

That's not what he was asking though. He was asking how to make GAMES. Not development tools. Those can be written in any old crap as long as it works.

Yeah, I get it. Whenever the C language causes abysmal performance due to its inherent characteristics, that's because the programmer didn't use enough magic pixie dust, or he didn't believe hard enough. Just ignore that the C language makes it incredibly easy to write code with quadratic time complexity that looks like it has linear time complexity. The proper mindset is to understand that performance is not an inherent characteristic of a language that has both a standard and multiple implementations. Sure, Python is slow because it's made by idiots, has no standard, and one implementation matters the most, but not every language is like this. The proper mindset is to understand that the program must be written to be fast, and it's much easier to do it in some languages than others.

I mean. I guess not understanding how the standard library functions work or not doing basic fucking profiling for your AAA game is C(++)'s fault. You got me there.

At least the C++ fuckwits appear to be obsessed with performance beyond all reason.
Nooo, I need to add ten thousand lines of code to avoid a very small copy somewhere!
Nooooo, I need to know the cache line size at compile time!

Mindbroken

I don't understand this complaint, but I can criticize it. The concept of bloat on modern machines is insane. Sure, there's WWW nonsense that's inefficient as hell, but what the fuck does bloated mean on a modern computer? Use an old machine, in which case the data will be stored directly in memory that happens to be battery-backed, or shut up about fucking bloat. To make an analogy, so many people want to pretend they're homesteading in a fucking apartment complex.

Your original response to that guy's question was a fucking word salad but THIS is somehow worse.
No bloat on modern machines? What planet are you on?
8GB of ram isn't enough anymore. Basic software is half a gigabyte+.
Maybe a lot of it *is* "WWW Nonsense" but the real issue is that EVERYONE is using that damn "WWW Nonsense"

 

[Grub]

It is, but it happens to be so miserable that people would rather use tools and systems from decades ago

That's the part I'm not getting. I'm trying to figure out how dicking around with things like that is somehow more productive than just using modern game dev and programming tools. Last time I worked on a 2d game. I just used Godot because it's easy as fuck to get shit setup and start just making whatever game I want instead of trying to figure out what my tools are going to actually let me do.

 

[Reversal]

I'm trying to make a visual novel - that isn't low-effort coomer bait - using Renpy. Even for a dummy like me who can't wrap my head around coding, I've managed to learn some very basic Python concepts. It has been an enjoyable hobby for me since I like and am much better at the writing / artistic aspects much more than coding aspect, of which there is very minimal for what I'm making.

 

[Creative Username]

no programming language or environment is a panacea because no tool can prevent retards from being retarded
@UERISIMILITUDO here has just embedded his head so far up his own ass that he reached his esophagus
granted, C lets you shoot yourself in the foot really easily; but it also has a myriad of good tools that let you find out what happened quick
you don't need some shitlang with an ungodly huge runtime and a garbage collector if you keep basic track of what you're doing

 

[Involuntary Celebrity]

Reminder that the Atari 2600 was designed as a pong machine and everything that moves in a 2600 game is considered either a bat or a ball internally. That's all you need, fuck this "first step" stuff.

Also, the rabbithole goes deeper. It goes all the way back to "Klik and Play", a DOS/Win 3.1 application ...and it's all been hacks on top since!

To be fair though, KnP was actually pretty cool. It did what it advertised and wasn't marketed as anything more than toy for kids, unlike the later transition to pretending the Click & Create family of marginally incremental crapware are some kind of pro suite they can charge hundreds of dollars for. To my knowledge, C&C was actually a legitimately new sequel to KnP, not a reskin... and that or at least TGF2 were pretty much the last actual serious development they ever did by all appearances.

Now to be clear, I'm not 100% sure who "they" are here. I vaguely remember some corporate/branding changes and don't really remember any names, although I'm sure at least one of the original dudes stuck around for a long time. So I don't want to shit on them indiscriminately if it's a case of one hack taking over the brand; all I know for sure is whatever "Clickteam" became has been running a lazy scam for the last two decades.

Take that back. Polish notation, and especially reverse Polish notation, is awesome.

I hate writing Haskell even now and would not force any aspect of it on a dumb child who just wants to make stupid South Park platformer games.
(Unlike the actually useful tricks I figured out as a dumb child like using modulo math to smuggle data, since the only global variable you have access to in Klik n Play is the player's score value.)

 

[ZMOT]

Godot has a history of poor management. I don't remember who but there was some disagreements between one of the main contributors and the lead developer (Juan Linietsky) over the direction and development of Godot. I don't remember what exactly happened since it was so long ago, but I think they were booted off the team. What I see is that Godot doesn't really have a main goal, it's just slapped together bullshit without any focus for quality and blatant disregard for performance.

it's pretty much a grift to leech money from suckers because MUH OPEN SOURCE and since last year a good heap of FUCK UNITY. don't get me wrong, this is not a diss against open source (I'm all for it, and just look at blender etc.) just a thing about godot and how it will never get anywhere for that reason.

It seems that there is talent here in the forum. How come you haven't banded together an give it another shot other than the Yandere Simulator clone?

probably because people able to do that also understand the critical advice to keep their kiwi persona separate (for a good reason).

I get that, but this mythical proper way of learning to code evades me, and the few answers I get are some online course that costs triple digits to start.

everybody shits on teachers (often for a good reason), however the truth is everybody learns differently - and every teacher teaches differently on top of that. most people will admit (if they were lucky to have one) that a good teacher makes a huge difference.
in a perfect world you would get taught how to "learn" properly first, so you have a solid foundation, and then you would know "this doesn't work for me" while understanding what does. that level however is not feasible for a public schooling system or any "generic" stuff like courses. it's a simple numbers game where it has to work for the majority but inevitably not for everyone.

anyway, as for answers like any community you need to find the right one, especially these days (good luck). fuck some fucking discord, you're probably better served on irc or maybe the programming thread here. for one-offs maybe even /g/ as shit as 4chan has become (worst case you'll be ignored or called a nigger, which is still preferable imo to shit like reddit or any of the other crap).
or try to break it down and just google, reduced enough someone probably ran into a similar issue before - the main problem is finding it.

meme answer: chatgpt.

The best system for expressing a game depends on the game. Never forget that glaring performance issues with GTA Online were caused directly by the C language and its asinine view of strings:

come on, you know that's just poor craftsmanship.

Good thread. Sometimes I winder if creating a game engine for an rpg is worth it, but still I’d love to hear others’ opinions. Good luck everyone

won't know without doing. you can probably get results fast in something like rpgmaker, and while some people might frown upon a suggestion like that, if the point is just figuring out if you even like it (or what you like about it), it's less of a "waste" of time than otherwise. afterwards there's plenty of time to go deeper and do it properly (however anyone would define that).

 

[Judge Dredd]

The games maybe, but the popular consoles are very affordable.

Not any more. I've gone into this in other threads, but in short scalpers, pickers, thrifters, flippers, collectors, whatever you call them have jacked the price of half-way decent machines through the roof. C64s are canabalised for their sound chips. GameBoy screens are degrading. etc.

Then there's the problem of getting a C64 or similar to work on a modern TV. Then you need a flash cart or some way of getting the homebrew games onto the machine.

These days it's far better to get an emulation handheld or a Raspberry Pi. I think this is why Pico-8 fairs so well because it's built in splor feature allows easy access to games.

That's the part I'm not getting. I'm trying to figure out how dicking around with things like that is somehow more productive than just using modern game dev and programming tools. Last time I worked on a 2d game. I just used Godot because it's easy as fuck to get shit setup and start just making whatever game I want instead of trying to figure out what my tools are going to actually let me do.

It's not more productive, just different. Some of the complexities of Godot development like dealing with node issues don't really exist. It goes to what others were talking about when it comes to learning coding fundamentals.