UK British News Megathread - aka CWCissey's news thread

https://news.sky.com/story/row-over-new-greggs-vegan-sausage-rolls-heats-up-11597679

A heated row has broken out over a move by Britain's largest bakery chain to launch a vegan sausage roll.

The pastry, which is filled with a meat substitute and encased in 96 pastry layers, is available in 950 Greggs stores across the country.

It was promised after 20,000 people signed a petition calling for the snack to be launched to accommodate plant-based diet eaters.


But the vegan sausage roll's launch has been greeted by a mixed reaction: Some consumers welcomed it, while others voiced their objections.

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spread happiness@p4leandp1nk

https://twitter.com/p4leandp1nk/status/1080767496569974785

#VEGANsausageroll thanks Greggs
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7

10:07 AM - Jan 3, 2019

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Cook and food poverty campaigner Jack Monroe declared she was "frantically googling to see what time my nearest opens tomorrow morning because I will be outside".

While TV writer Brydie Lee-Kennedy called herself "very pro the Greggs vegan sausage roll because anything that wrenches veganism back from the 'clean eating' wellness folk is a good thing".

One Twitter user wrote that finding vegan sausage rolls missing from a store in Corby had "ruined my morning".

Another said: "My son is allergic to dairy products which means I can't really go to Greggs when he's with me. Now I can. Thank you vegans."

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pg often@pgofton

https://twitter.com/pgofton/status/1080772793774624768

The hype got me like #Greggs #Veganuary


42

10:28 AM - Jan 3, 2019

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TV presenter Piers Morgan led the charge of those outraged by the new roll.

"Nobody was waiting for a vegan bloody sausage, you PC-ravaged clowns," he wrote on Twitter.

Mr Morgan later complained at receiving "howling abuse from vegans", adding: "I get it, you're all hangry. I would be too if I only ate plants and gruel."

Another Twitter user said: "I really struggle to believe that 20,000 vegans are that desperate to eat in a Greggs."

"You don't paint a mustach (sic) on the Mona Lisa and you don't mess with the perfect sausage roll," one quipped.

Journalist Nooruddean Choudry suggested Greggs introduce a halal steak bake to "crank the fume levels right up to 11".

The bakery chain told concerned customers that "change is good" and that there would "always be a classic sausage roll".

It comes on the same day McDonald's launched its first vegetarian "Happy Meal", designed for children.

The new dish comes with a "veggie wrap", instead of the usual chicken or beef option.

It should be noted that Piers Morgan and Greggs share the same PR firm, so I'm thinking this is some serious faux outrage and South Park KKK gambiting here.
 
Here's a thought: despite all the grandeur from the outside and the fact they just redid Big Ben, the Palace of Westminster is crumbling.
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It costs £2 million a week just to keep patching it up and it needs a proper redo. Originally the plan had been to move into a temporary chamber in Richmond House (the old Department for Education building):
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but the Jacob Rees-Moggs of the world wouldn't stand for it. This full decant would have taken 12-20 years and cost £7 billion - £13 billion. A suggestion that the Lords can get kicked out while the Commons stay put and then nick the Lord's chambers would cost £18.5 billion and take 26-43 years... and the idea that the renovations are just done during extended recesses would take £22 billion and take 46-76 years.

Obviously there's no actual reason why Parliament needs to take place in Parliament other than MPs liking the pomp and circumstance (the magical mace that gives them the power of the King to make laws can just be carried to another building and put there while they vote), but I suspect this is going to become a more pressing issue after the election as this basically has been ignored since 2020. But what's got me thinking is if the plans are revived, are we going to see the same shaped chamber? The chamber as it exists now is too small to fit the number of MPs we have, and it's designed with opposing benches "a sword's width apart", which is how it's been for centuries.

But a lot of Parliaments have a more semicircular layout:
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It's suggested that this reduces the argumentative "government vs opposition" structure to debates and reminds MPs they are all colleagues working together to represent the interests of their constituents and the country. Given there's a small chance we might actually see a Lib Dem opposition (and regardless, Labour can essentially do what they want and ignore the Conservatives on matters like this) are there odds on a more "modernised" layout, at least temporarily? Same deal with a more modernised voting system, rather than MPs having to walk into the Ayes or Noes division lobby (and then that ridiculous situation where 30p Lee changed his vote because some Labour MPs giggled at him and he got too embarassed).

Going off Politico, Keir spends most of his time working in the newbuild Labour offices rather than the Parliamentary estate.
 
@AssignedEva Counterpoint: Any attempt to "modernize" or make a new House of Parliament would invariably end up with some soulless Continental chamber like two of the examples you used below. They'll find some way to remove all of the pageantry and tradition and continuity out of any redesign and it'll look like some disgusting corporate boardroom. Even in the decant you posted, it still strips away all of the soul that remains in the architecture and renders it in the same minimalist bullshit that's in everything.
 
With only a few occasional spergs it amazing what a chill this thread is considering were a country of people who absolutely hate each other.

Keep it up, fellow bongs.

I think there is a mathematical formula of how many bongs can be in a group and for what length of time before they end up hating each other. Then you have to include the alcohol modifier.
 
I think there is a mathematical formula of how many bongs can be in a group and for what length of time before they end up hating each other. Then you have to include the alcohol modifier.
There’s a point that that were you get enough of us together we stop fighting, bugger off somewhere hot, plant a Union Flag and say it’s ours now.
 
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But what's got me thinking is if the plans are revived, are we going to see the same shaped chamber?
Yes. The semicircular chambers are nearly all in PR countries, where coalitions are the norm.

It's suggested that this reduces the argumentative "government vs opposition" structure to debates and reminds MPs they are all colleagues working together to represent the interests of their constituents and the country.
God, that sounds dreadful. If politicians are working together it usually means they're conspiring against the public.

Same deal with a more modernised voting system, rather than MPs having to walk into the Ayes or Noes division lobby
No. Backbenchers like the division lobbies because it gives them a chance to badger ministers, and whips like them because it's easier to intimidate backbenchers.
 
This full decant would have taken 12-20 years and cost £7 billion - £13 billion. A suggestion that the Lords can get kicked out while the Commons stay put and then nick the Lord's chambers would cost £18.5 billion and take 26-43 years... and the idea that the renovations are just done during extended recesses would take £22 billion and take 46-76 years.
Apparently the palace cost £2m to (re)build by 1870. Adjusting for inflation that's roughly £200m. If you take the most generous increase by scaling the value by the increase in the country's GDP, you get just over £2bn. How on Earth is renovating a building supposed to cost up to £22bn for fucks sake? How much could it cost to push the thing over and rebuild like for like?
 
Every member of the England National team is English.
Fuck off London.
I consider them the English team but not English. They came through the English training system and weren't poached from overseas due to their sportsball ability.
Perhaps if you wanted a more Native football team, it might be a good idea to delay selection for special training until everyone is older, as Black boys tend to go through puberty eariler.
 
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I really wish there was some rule about people needing an actual connection to an area to stand as an MP. Parachute MPs tend to be the most soulless no-where people that exist and don’t care if half of Africa gets dumped in their constituencies.
I've probably complained about this on here before, but here goes.

I live in a constituency where you could pin a red rosette on anything or anyone and they'd win. They could promise to murder everyone in the constituency and enough would still just autovote.

So the only way to select an MP is get in with the local Labour party. When the old MP retired I managed to get involved with selecting a new one. There was a very well respected Councillor who was interested. He was a well known, well liked local lad and was easily selected by the local committee.

The Labour Party overruled the local committee because selecting a white male in a safe seat wouldn't fly with them. They foisted a minority woman who probably couldn't find the place on a map on us.

She won with the lowest majority labour ever had in the seat, but still won. Elections since then have gone back up to the usual Labour win by more than trippling 2nd place.

Democracy in action...

In other news reddit went full seeth over someone saying they aren't going to vote because they're all a shower of shit.

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How does anyone think who wins red vs blue will change anything? I'm assuming they're a bunch of kids who have zero experience of anything other than a tory government so haven't yet realised Labour are the same thing with a different coat of paint.

I have to laugh at so many pointing to manifestos saying "do your research they're totally different", aside from the fact the manifestos are more the same than different, they're also meaningless.
 
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@AssignedEva Counterpoint: Any attempt to "modernize" or make a new House of Parliament would invariably end up with some soulless Continental chamber like two of the examples you used below. They'll find some way to remove all of the pageantry and tradition and continuity out of any redesign and it'll look like some disgusting corporate boardroom. Even in the decant you posted, it still strips away all of the soul that remains in the architecture and renders it in the same minimalist bullshit that's in everything.
The thing is, I do love the tradition and the pageantry, but I'd love a functioning country more. The pomp and circumstance seems to attract the wrong sort in many ways, like the ones who insist on no computer and have civil servants print out all their emails, while showing contempt for the electorate;
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They're supposed to be running the country, not LARPing as Victorians. So although we're the oldest Parliamentary democracy in the world and it's important we preserve as much of that heritage as we can, that can't come at the cost of having adults in charge. Whereas -
No. Backbenchers like the division lobbies because it gives them a chance to badger ministers, and whips like them because it's easier to intimidate backbenchers.
this is a really good argument for keeping division lobbies. I hadn't considered that, and it's a benefit to how we're doing things. And I'm sure along the lines of Chesterton's Fence there's additional arguments for keeping other aspects of Parliament the same, but I do think they need to be interrogated and the reasons presented - like why there's not enough space for MPs in the Commons right now, when we've got the option to modernise aspects of it. There's plenty of Parliamentary conventions that were invented in the 20th century (for example, not leaving the choice of the party leader and therefore Prime Minister down to "the men in grey suits") and at the very least, the amount of rules that hinge on good chap principles need to be addressed, as we've seen what happens when people stop being good chaps.
 
The pomp and circumstance seems to attract the wrong sort in many ways, like the ones who insist on no computer and have civil servants print out all their emails, while showing contempt for the electorate
You picked a bad example there. JRM's an intelligent chap and always has something interesting to say. The worst MPs are those who only ever just parrot the party line on anything.

this is a really good argument for keeping division lobbies. I hadn't considered that, and it's a benefit to how we're doing things
I seem to remember as well that in the EU Parliament's electronic voting, there's a lazy-voting button that selects the choices that the whips have pre-approved, and MEPs have to make a special effort to vote differently. So no, you really don't want electronic voting. Quite apart from anything else, it's not obvious that speeding up how Parliament operates is a Good Thing.
 
You picked a bad example there. JRM's an intelligent chap and always has something interesting to say. The worst MPs are those who only ever just parrot the party line on anything.
I’ve heard from a couple of people that when the cameras are off he’s actually quite a decent bloke. He‘s been genetically engineered to trigger Tory Derangement Syndrome though.
 

My sole reason for posting this is the picture

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On 16 March 2016, the philosopher Rebecca Reilly-Cooper delivered a talk for Coventry Skeptics. The title was “Critically examining the doctrine of gender identity”. You can watch it here. Reilly-Cooper also created a blog, “Sex and Gender: A beginner’s guide” and wrote an article for Aeon on the problem with viewing gender as a spectrum. If you want to get a feel for all the supposedly terrible things left-wing feminists were saying about trans people around a decade ago — things that apparently merited this response — you could do worse than start with these.

The mid- to late 2010s were a weird time for left-wing feminists, many of whom had always voted for Labour. While some brave voices, such as Julie Bindel, had long been telling us there was a problem with trans activism, it was at this point that left-wing gender critical activism gathered speed. Woman’s Place UK was founded in 2017, by Judith Green, Ruth Serwotka and Kiri Tunks. When I interviewed her for my book Hags, Tunks told me “we thought us being recognisable women of the left would make people stop and think.” Yet when Woman’s Place held an unofficial fringe meeting at the 2019 Labour Party conference, attendees were threatened throughout, with protestors blocking access and kicking on windows. In the Labour leadership contest of 2020, Rebecca Long-Bailey and Lisa Nandy signed a pledge describing Woman’s Place as a “hate group”. There have been no apologies for any of this.

It really didn’t have to be this way. Years ago, gender self-ID was a Tory cause, with former Women and Equalities Minister Maria Miller insisting the only opposition came from women “purporting to be feminists”. If that sounds confusing now, it is only because the male-dominated left’s enthusiasm for sex denialism eventually became — as many of us warned it would — an open goal for the right. In the period leading up to this, though, you got the sense that many Tories saw “trans rights” as a low-cost way of looking progressive — a kind of super-charged version of gay rights, with none of the inconveniences that come with supporting single mothers, women fleeing violent relationships or those facing pensions inequality. They loved women, the Tories, so much so, anyone could be one.

Obviously things have changed since. To anyone who was not paying attention at the time (and fair enough — as Jane Clare Jones wrote in 2018, “if you glance at it running from twenty paces, [trans activism] does look exactly like the gay rights movement”), it may be hard to understand why so many of us are so very angry about Labour’s current promises to solve the gender wars. Hey, at least they’re trying, aren’t they? Gotta have a bit of compromise! To some, it may seem churlish to dwell on the injustice of Starmer blaming feminists for being “toxic” (that is, for saying the kind of things Tony Blair might say, only in their shrill, strident voices). Why can’t we just swallow our pride — that same “pride” that led us to keep researching, writing, speaking, campaigning, fundraising, year after year, ignored by politicians, without ever once stooping to the level of those hounding us — and let bygones be bygones? Let’s just be grateful the adults have entered the room and are going to sort it all out.

Only Labour can’t do this. Or at least, not without having to unpick years and years of legal obfuscation and organisational capture, while also acknowledging that a substantial amount of psychological damage and physical harm has already been caused to vulnerable people. This is not about getting two warring sides to see sense. It is an enormous legal and ideological mess, in which misogyny and porn addiction have played none too small a part. Still they refuse to see it. Instead Starmer now offers up the same lazy “gotchas” that trans activists have been serving up to feminists for the past ten years, all the while seeming profoundly irritated that he — a sensible, rational man — is having to deal with such trifles.

There was a time — and I find it darkly funny now — when I thought all this was preventable. As those of us who were sounding the alarm in the 2010s might recall, there was a period — say 2016 to 2019 — when a particular sequence of events kept recurring. You’d write a piece or make a speech or launch a campaign, and some nice progressive type would come across it and think “oh, that’s good! These women aren’t anything like the evil transphobes I’ve been told about. At last, a compassionate middle way, in which no one denies the salience of biological sex but gender non-conforming people aren’t harassed either!” Then this person would publicise their support for you and — in the early days at least — you’d think “hooray!” Then all hell would break loose.

Your progressive supporter would be inundated with messages from trans activists telling them that one of the worst things about gender-critical feminism was that it seemed sensible, empathetic and left-wing (as the CUSU guide to spotting “TERF ideology” warns, “the language of TERF ideology is ever changing, always with the aim of sounding reasonable. If your approach to spotting and fighting TERFs is purely based on words and optics, then you’re vulnerable to being taken onboard by a new dogwhistle or talking point”). They’d be told we were not, in fact, an alternative to the evil TERFs; we were them, but it would take an extra-special initiate to spot this (as the grandma in Roald Dahl’s The Witches says, “REAL WITCHES dress in ordinary clothes and look very much like ordinary women”).

Your supporter would hold out for a day or two, perhaps. A few years in, many of us were debating in private how long a particular person would last. Sometimes the supporter would send you semi-apologetic private messages, usually along the lines of “I know you’re not one of the evil TERFs, but I’ve learned that your rhetoric is misused to harm trans people, so I don’t feel comfortable backing you”. Or it could be the more basic “I didn’t realise how complex this — I have a job and some trans friends, so I can’t risk getting into it” (thankfully, feminists don’t have jobs or friends). Then the person would either quietly delete their support or even offer up a low-level denunciation of you.

I’m sure there are people who did this who now have no recollection of ever having been anything other than the purest supporter of trans activism. I even went through a phase of feeling guilty whenever someone I admired supported me, because I knew what was coming (“denounce me now!” I’d think. “Save yourself! You’re going to be doing it the day after tomorrow anyhow!”).

So, this is how things were back then. I recount all this to make several things clear: first, left-wing feminists were not being “toxic” (or “throwing bricks”, as Starmer suggested in 2020) but trying very hard to reach a solution, with little support, in the face of utterly unhinged opposition. When other left-wing people looked at what we were saying, without being primed to consider it ‘secretly’ evil, they tended to agree with it.

Second, there’s no real excuse for not knowing what we were arguing. The material is all out there, yet Starmer, for instance, still has absolutely no idea what feminists think gender is (you’d think this was important).

The third thing is that Labour — unlike left-wing parties in other countries — had the chance to address this issue from a left-wing perspective. Debates over sex and gender had not yet been shoehorned into some Tory vs Labour “culture war” (however much trans activists desperately wanted them to be). The situation in the UK was nothing like that in the US, in which it was quickly obligatory to see things only through the lens of trans-inclusive Democrats/transphobic Republicans. Labour had a golden opportunity to progress beyond the slogans. Feminists with a huge range of expertise were doing all of the work that politicians and career feminists failed to. The party ignored us, thinking the issue would go away. It has not.

Every time a Labour politician has explained their position now, I have felt a rising sense of rage. Do they think we are stupid? Do they seriously think that if only we’d tried a little harder, we’d understand there’s nothing to worry about? Now we are told of course we can have woman-only spaces! Who’s ever said we can’t? And of course trans women are women, but only if they’ve got a certificate, which would therefore make them eligible to go into these woman-only spaces (it seems it’s only the ones who can’t be arsed to change the name on their phone bill you have to worry about).

This truly is pathetic stuff. What is going on in a male person’s head does not define a woman or girl’s reality. The logical conclusion of Labour’s position is that female-only toilets, changing rooms, refuges, rape crisis centres, dating sites etc. may never be female-only again, and that women and girls just have to live with it on the basis that the male people who use them may or may not have endured some minor bureaucratic inconvenience in order to gain access (not that you’d be able to find out either way).

True, there is some lip-service being paid to the idea of genuinely female-only spaces. There is, however, no explanation as to how this will be achieved without greater clarification of the law as it stands. Right now, for instance, a Brighton rape survivor is campaigning to have one — just one — single-sex service. Yet Starmer denies there is a problem. Why does he continue to do this, when it is so obviously not the case?

My suspicion is that on some level, Starmer is starting to realise what feminists worked out many years ago. He cannot admit this — not now, when things have escalated so much — so he must treat us like we are idiots instead. He does not want to tug at the thread we tugged at all those years ago. He knows it will unravel everything. Trans activists will not accept any form of clarification because that would indicate that trans women are not women in every single sense of the word. And if you’re thinking “what about saying ‘you’re women, but you’re not biologically female’”, we tried that one already. It doesn’t work (ditto if you’re considering rebranding “the biologically female” something else — say, little whinging fuckers — and then granting that group some specific rights. Trans women would simply start identifying as that, too).

Starmer, just like Harriet Harman, cannot admit that what we know now is completely different to what was known during the passing of the GRA in 2004 and the Equality Act in 2010. Apart from the few prescient feminist voices out there, I doubt many people were anticipating that soon there would be claims that trans women could menstruate and breastfeed, or that lesbians would be told by Stonewall to overcome their genital preferences, or that women in general would end up being rebranded vagina owners, uterus havers, bleeders and the like. Likewise, little attention was paid to the tremendous influence of misogyny-soaked porn on the self-perception of trans-identified males. The trans woman for whom the GRA was written was Coronation Street’s Hayley Cropper, the post-operative trans woman who never once told Roy that “sissy porn made me trans” or that she liked nothing better than being “treated like a piece of meat”. Today, we know how male people behave when it is made easier for them to identify as women. It is not like Hayley Cropper.

If, years ago, more left-wing people had stuck with “the feminists have a point”, things would not have escalated in quite the way they have. Because things have gone so far, it is harder for Labour to admit some basic truths: that trans people are not a homogeneous group; that a camp little boy or traumatised teenage girl will have completely different reasons for identifying as trans compared to a middle-aged man; that some men simply enjoy having new ways to breach female boundaries; that there is a difference between a male person’s fetishisation of female oppression and a woman’s actual experience of being oppressed. “Trans women are women” was offered up as a fiction, a kindness, something to ease the pain of a tortured minority, but male people have shown they could not be trusted not to misuse it. Given what we’ve always known about men, it was never really necessary to test this out, but we did. Now we know for sure. Yet Starmer pretends the test was never run, and that the real-life evidence all around him simply doesn’t exist.

So many clever, thoughtful, knowledgeable women were spelling all this out years ago. Now Labour’s only hope is that women forget there was ever a time when we weren’t cis privileged bleeders who don’t deserve words, movements or spaces of our own. Sorry, Sir Keir. It’s not going to happen.

We remember everything. We will keep reminding you of everything. As books such as The Women Who Wouldn’t Wheesht and Jenny Lindsay’s forthcoming Hounded show, we will make sure everyone knows exactly how we came to this point. We might not have all the answers, but at least we did nothing to make the situation so much worse.

One day you might use all the work we’ve done. We owe you nothing, and you hate us for it, but we remain your best bet.
 

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Rather than bemoaning things like how parliament still is built around things that no longer matter such as the front benches being sword distance apart, perhaps we could reintroduce the things that made them necessary. Have MPs carrying swords into parliament, etc. Sunak has short arms and would soon be dispatched for example. And Jacob Reese Mogg would undoubtedly consider himself quite dashing sporting an English fencing sword.
 
I hope Sunak has his bags packed and a moving van ready because on Thursday night that man is being evicted.
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Reform with 16% effectively becoming the UK's third party if the numbers are correct.
This is going to be a massive boost to bring about proportional representation. The parties that finish last will more than likely get more seats that the one that finishes third.

I voted against PR on the referendum as first past the post is a good filter to keep the crazies out, but if the crazies now get a podium finish then they really need to be let in.
 
I was going to vote, then found out my vote card was for a previous tenant. I breathed a sigh of relief because I don't have to vote for the pajeet. I would rather die than vote for Starmer a man who fails up or Angela Rayner whose idea of politics is bedding politicians to stay afloat.

Deep down I am hoping for a coalition to keep Starmer's fever dream in check but it won't happen sadly. I can't wait to see the level of batshit we are about to descend into as he passes inane hate speech bills and anything financially viable is "the Tories bankrupt us". He's also a massive Chink slave so he will scupper our relationship with the US and Australia. All for that precious non-existent Chinese money.
 
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