Hazbin Hotel / Helluva Boss Thread - Now a Griefing Thread

[Cyber Bowling]

With the whole Lucifer thing, Vivzie would either have to make him job really hard or find a way to write him out whether he’s busy with something else or for some reason not help out.

I think including Lucifer at all this early was a mistake, but gun to my head if I had to go along with it and still have justification for the Vee's to be villains next season, I don't think it'd be *that* hard to do.

Angels are shocked that a soul in hell was redeemed, and are now open to the idea of Charlie's hotel working, but don't outright accept it right away. Lucifer is inspired to act as a result/wants to be a better father to Charlie so he goes to Heaven to basically iron out the details. It's going to take awhile because this is brand new territory, entire faith systems are being challenged etc.

While he's gone, Charlie tries to spread the word in hell that redemption is possible, the hotel works etc. I mean, redemption only works if people know they can be redeemed and decide to work for it, so they'd have to do a lot of messaging. That would be when the Vee's strike, since souls being redeemed is bad for business, and with Lucifer gone, this might be the only chance they have to do anything, so, when Charlie goes to broadcast to hell about the hotel, they take over and do the hypno thing, and then whatever Viv has planned takes place.

I'm not saying this is a good season, but it's an attempt to play "what if" while also working in the bounds of Viv's flawed plan.

 

[Smity Werbenjagermanjensen]

Uh, wait - a TV machineman hijacks things and is "strong enough" to both Heaven and Hell as enemies again? Is that it? Because it seems like a subversion that isn't too planned. Are there subtle hints of Vox being that powerful, that he would do great things - and hijack such transmission? Or is it "sUbVeRt ExPeCtAtIoNs" for the sake of subverting them? Since ASOIAF/GoT was mentioned here - we know how the later seasons panned out, compared to GRRM's careful planning of how the subtle hints of the Red Wedding was supposed to go.

He seemingly just hijacks the transmission to hypnotize a ton of Sinners watching, given that Charlie and Emily aren't affected it seems that his hypnotism has its limits, don't have a problem with him being able to pull off a Max Headroom, just that he should immediately be crushed before he could actually put his brainwashed army to use.

And to say nothing of the Exorcists, they will be shown as unreasonable and bigoted towards poor widdle Sir Pentious like he dindu nuffin' to earn his place in Hell.

He died in 1888, of course it won't happen but it would be hilarious if Pentious turned out to be Jack the Ripper.

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

He seemingly just hijacks the transmission to hypnotize a ton of Sinners watching, given that Charlie and Emily aren't affected it seems that his hypnotism has its limits, don't have a problem with him being able to pull off a Max Headroom, just that he should immediately be crushed before he could actually put his brainwashed army to use.

He died in 1888, of course it won't happen but it would be hilarious if Pentious turned out to be Jack the Ripper.

Ah, I see. I thought he would be able to suddenly become a true villain out of nowhere, suddenly revealing his power, akin to a Dragon Ball character.

 

[Sonya-chan]

>Adam isn't coming back
It's so joever, my boy deserved better than thisView attachment 6174960

Why did they permanently kill him instead of turning him into a sinner like lucifer? Make this bastard reincarned into a demonic form and make him realizes the hard truth of the heaven/hell dichotomy! I want to see Adam feel regret and anger after his song "hell is forever", after him bragging about how heaven is awesome and he was just there because he was "the first human" see the taste of his own medicine!!
Why Viv? Why? I swear this show throw all their good ideas into the toilet.

 

[perry 23 tack]

I posted this in the thread before, but we already know the jest of season 2 thanks to Emily's VA posting a picture of the script, basically Emily shows up at some televised news conference with Charlie, explains how Heaven is now on board with the whole redemption plan, but Vox hijacks the signal and hypnotizes everyone watching. (Second image is very long even as a thumbnail)
View attachment 6174690
It's laughable, since given that Lucifer is now directly involved with the Hotel, and Heaven is now greenlighting Charlie's plan unless Emily is talking out of line, in a decently written story Vox should have about ten seconds before a very pissed off Lucifer shows up at his tower after he does this. The Vees even watched Lucifer utterly trounce Adam even as Lucifer wasn't taking him at all seriously.

Honestly, it's not even laughable because of the logistical errors (I mean it is and makes no sense), it's laughable because this is how they're gonna make Vox come across as a threat? He's even less intimidating here than in Season 1. They're trying to treat this as some Berserk-level nightmarish twist but this is some Saturday Morning Cartoon tier scheme. Except even the fucking Powerpuff Girls and MLP had more menacing schemes than this shit.

I don't like Alastor, but I can at least see why he is a threat and terrifying villain to many people. If this is Spindle's attempt at making Vox on the same level a threat as Al, then they fucking failed.

 

[Roger Dennis]

“Adam isn’t coming back.”

Wait. Hold the fuck on. Perhaps I missed something in the season finale, but… I thought angels can be permanently killed by their own weapons only.

But Adam was killed by getting repeatedly stabbed with a regular knife.

I’m pretty sure he *should* be coming back by this logic, but Viv obviously doesn’t give a shit about consistency.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

>Adam isn’t coming back

Wait. Hold the fuck on. Perhaps I missed something in the season finale, but… I thought angels can be permanently killed by their own weapons only.

But Adam was killed by getting repeatedly stabbed with a regular knife.

I’m pretty sure he *should* be coming back by this logic, but Viv obviously doesn’t give a shit about consistency.

Actually it was a clear angelic knife that stabbed him.

 

[perry 23 tack]

But Adam was killed by getting repeatedly stabbed with a regular knife.

OK, sorry to defend the show here, but the knife Niffty used to stab Adam was an angelic knife.

Edit:Oops someone responded before I did

 

[Roger Dennis]

Actually it was a clear angelic knife that stabbed him.

Looked back at it. You’re right. Thank you for correcting me.

 

[Gondolindrim]

You just know Viz is going to show Heaven throwing a party over Adam being dead and gone. Just full on "No one liked him anyway, now stop thinking about how Lucifer fucked him over from start to finish!*" like an army worth of angels wouldn't be cause for alarm among the Winners and Heavenborn. And to say nothing of the Exorcists, they will be shown as unreasonable and bigoted towards poor widdle Sir Pentious like he dindu nuffin' to earn his place in Hell.

*Seriously, this kind of shit wouldn't be out of place in the tragic backstory of some comic about an anti-hero seeking revenge.

Yeah I'm expecting some childish shit like that. It's not enough that no one liked Adam, it's gonna be that everyone is happy he and all the exorcists got wiped. And Lute will be portrayed as a crazy bitch for being the one consistent character.

@Smity Werbenjagermanjensen

It's laughable, since given that Lucifer is now directly involved with the Hotel, and Heaven is now greenlighting Charlie's plan unless Emily is talking out of line, in a decently written story Vox should have about ten seconds before a very pissed off Lucifer shows up at his tower after he does this. The Vees even watched Lucifer utterly trounce Adam even as Lucifer wasn't taking him at all seriously.

Oh yeah, this is what I was coming over here to say: The show has two major problems going on related to Charlie being the Princess of Hell: 1. Her dad runs the fucking place, nothing should be going on that Luc isn't aware of and more importantly, can't take care of in 20 seconds. Conflict with Alastor or any of the Overlords is laughable because of the sheer power difference. Which leads into 2. Charlie being so cucked that she's on the verge of being menaced by dead humans is not a good look. Like I get that her gimmick is that she wants to be nice, but seriosuly, vaporize those fuckers if they start messing with your hotel.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

Why did they permanently kill him instead of turning him into a sinner like lucifer? Make this bastard reincarned into a demonic form and make him realizes the hard truth of the heaven/hell dichotomy! I want to see Adam feel regret and anger after his song "hell is forever", after him bragging about how heaven is awesome and he was just there because he was "the first human" see the taste of his own medicine!!
Why Viv? Why? I swear this show throw all their good ideas into the toilet.

Because that's too good of an idea for Viv. All jokes aside, I don't know why Viv didn't decide to do this. The Fandom absolutely loves the idea of Sinner Adam. I mean, I knew Adam wasn't going to come back in Season 2 because I saw a Twitter post of someone who asked that question to Viv at a con way long before. Now this just officially confirms it.

But this is probably for the beta to be honest. Since season 2 is going to be introducing more characters to this already bloated cast, and if we also only get 8 episodes for this season, there wouldn't be that much time for this plotline anyway.

 

[Seventh Star]

I thought Lucifer would have been a character only shown at the end of the show or not at all. Dunno why Vivz thought he should have been introduced right away.

 

[Rakdos92]

Yeah I'm expecting some childish shit like that. It's not enough that no one liked Adam, it's gonna be that everyone is happy he and all the exorcists got wiped. And Lute will be portrayed as a crazy bitch for being the one consistent character.

Worst part is, even him being dead isn't going to stop Viz from shitting on him even further. Dude just can't catch a break outside of fanfiction.

 

[Cyber Bowling]

All jokes aside, I don't know why Viv didn't decide to do this. The Fandom absolutely loves the idea of Sinner Adam.

It really does feel like a missed opportunity, even in a series that is basically built on the idea of missed opportunities. It's also strange because it really feels like a no brainer idea. Even without directly looking at fandom support, there are so many examples across fiction of successful and popular storylines where, after the villain gets defeated, they ultimately end up joining the main cast, become redeemed, and typically become the most popular character as a result. And in a show that's (supposed) to be about redemption, it seems like a slam dunk opportunity. Even in the terms of the overall storytelling, I think it'd really shake things up if, not only was a soul able to redeem itself in hell, but a soul in heaven was able to sin and go to hell. It'd be interesting seeing how the angels react to that, knowing even after making it into paradise, they're still essentially being judged and their actions matter.

I'll be a little fair to Viv and say it isn't necessarily an example of her being a bad writer. While it might be a fairly common trope, it's by no means required, and there's definitely an argument that in a show as crowded as HH, not adding another character is the smarter move. It just seems like a missed opportunity, and I have to wonder if Viv even considered it at all or if completely flew under the radar because she was too focused on making a dozen new characters to shove into the plot.

 

[InJailOutSoon]

It really does feel like a missed opportunity, even in a series that is basically built on the idea of missed opportunities. It's also strange because it really feels like a no brainer idea. Even without directly looking at fandom support, there are so many examples across fiction of successful and popular storylines where, after the villain gets defeated, they ultimately end up joining the main cast, become redeemed, and typically become the most popular character as a result. And in a show that's (supposed) to be about redemption, it seems like a slam dunk opportunity. Even in the terms of the overall storytelling, I think it'd really shake things up if, not only was a soul able to redeem itself in hell, but a soul in heaven was able to sin and go to hell. It'd be interesting seeing how the angels react to that, knowing even after making it into paradise, they're still essentially being judged and their actions matter.

I'll be a little fair to Viv and say it isn't necessarily an example of her being a bad writer. While it might be a fairly common trope, it's by no means required, and there's definitely an argument that in a show as crowded as HH, not adding another character is the smarter move. It just seems like a missed opportunity, and I have to wonder if Viv even considered it at all or if completely flew under the radar because she was too focused on making a dozen new characters to shove into the plot.

I mean I guess we got Vaggie, though I guess she doesn't really count because she was just...left in Hell. That's a good discussion question for the Kiwis; is Vaggie a fallen angel or was she just kicked out of Heaven? Would you consider these to be any different from each other?

Slightly off topic, but I am realizing that in Viv's works I don't think there have been any villains as of now who have been redeemed. We've had antagonists who had been expanded on and shown in a more sympathetic light, but it's not like they had to change their ways (I'm not counting Sir Pentious in this because he wasn't really a villain in the first place).

 

[Viper the rappah]

Because that's too good of an idea for Viv. All jokes aside, I don't know why Viv didn't decide to do this. The Fandom absolutely loves the idea of Sinner Adam. I mean, I knew Adam wasn't going to come back in Season 2 because I saw a Twitter post of someone who asked that question to Viv at a con way long before. Now this just officially confirms it.

But this is probably for the beta to be honest. Since season 2 is going to be introducing more characters to this already bloated cast, and if we also only get 8 episodes for this season, there wouldn't be that much time for this plotline anyway.

It may seem sad that we won't see him again but on the bright side he won't be in this shitshow no more and if he was alive i feel like she would turn him gay if he was to be a good guy. I just feel like she the second opportunity shows up for money to be earned from ships and retarded teens that she will ride off with the idea just so she can milk it
Already been proven with her pride art that she aint afraid to pander
Actually it goes back even further with art of moxxie being shown more and more as a twink who dresses like a girl

 

[Meghan Sparkle the Second]

I mean I guess we got Vaggie, though I guess she doesn't really count because she was just...left in Hell. That's a good discussion question for the Kiwis; is Vaggie a fallen angel or was she just kicked out of Heaven? Would you consider these to be any different from each other?

It doesn't count because she was never a villain in the writers' eyes, she's part of the good guys. Just like Angel Dust being owed redemption according to Charlie, despite probably killing hundreds of people between his life as a mafioso and his afterlife fighting in turf wars.

Morality will not be explored when it comes to good guys, in which case it's just a sad backstory. Only when it's the perceived oppressors, aka Heaven, in which case they are irredeamable and horrible monsters for condemning people like Val to eternal Red LA.

(I'm still salty they didn't keep Vaggie's old backstory about being a prostitute who ended up in Hell because she committed suicide. That would have been an interesting argument to explore against Heaven's moral compass, instead of this half-assed plot twist that didn't amount to anything)

 

[Hammersmith]

I mean I guess we got Vaggie, though I guess she doesn't really count because she was just...left in Hell. That's a good discussion question for the Kiwis; is Vaggie a fallen angel or was she just kicked out of Heaven? Would you consider these to be any different from each other?

Personally, I think it's neither of the options you stated. I think that she was left behind in Hell by Lute and Adam, so sinners would simply kill her in their stead. (Maybe they thought that angels couldn't kill one another? No idea). She didn't commit any sins to be condemned as a fallen angel like Lucifer. In the episode where she and Charlie go to Heaven to present the idea of redemption, Vaggie wasn't barred from entry. So, in my mind, I think that she could freely enter Hell and Heaven at any time, but she chose to stay in Hell with Charlie after being disenfranchised by Heaven's exterminations.

It's just my opinion, and I might be wholeheartedly wrong here. Vaggie wasn't developed much as a character because of the tiny number of episodes in season one, and who knows what her lore is at this point. Anyone's guess could be correct. Knowing Viv, she'll probably choose whichever fan theory she likes best and implement it into canon proper at the end of the day.

Also, I was recently at the gym and I decided to think more about the movie "plan", in case people here are interested at my personal idea. Be advised that I never watched the show so it's be complete fanfiction if that's fine, lol.

You should totally go for it. You probably could write something better and more coherent without watching any of the shows at this point lmao

Also, congratulations to all the kiwis on reaching 500 pages!

 

[Outer Space Traveller]

Personally, I think it's neither of the options you stated. I think that she was left behind in Hell by Lute and Adam, so sinners would simply kill her in their stead. (Maybe they thought that angels couldn't kill one another? No idea). She didn't commit any sins to be condemned as a fallen angel like Lucifer. In the episode where she and Charlie go to Heaven to present the idea of redemption, Vaggie wasn't barred from entry. So, in my mind, I think that she could freely enter Hell and Heaven at any time, but she chose to stay in Hell with Charlie after being disenfranchised by Heaven's exterminations.

It's just my opinion, and I might be wholeheartedly wrong here. Vaggie wasn't developed much as a character because of the tiny number of episodes in season one, and who knows what her lore is at this point. Anyone's guess could be correct. Knowing Viv, she'll probably choose whichever fan theory she likes best and implement it into canon proper at the end of the day.


You should totally go for it. You probably could write something better and more coherent without watching any of the shows at this point lmao

Also, congratulations to all the kiwis on reaching 500 pages!

Alright, here goes:

Spoiler: Movie Option #1

It begins by showing a crossover, and how both series' characters meet in Heaven again, this time because God, the character attatched wants to show a big presentation or something. If you want to be very Hazbinesque, call it a musical number. (Not making it a thumbnail because you got to see it in full glory, lol). This can be expanded upon so the cream of the crop of Hell gets to see: Charlie, Lucifer, Alastor, Paimon, Stolas, etc.

Then, something happens mid way, and a grandiose light shines through, and a great revelation comes. Said ray of light teleports seven (or thirteen: one plus twelve, making due to the Twelve Tribes of Israel) Knights akin to the Templar Knights we see in Doom Eternal (or at least inspired by them) that come through. They stand in place, while said light form speaks, and reveals that said "God" of Hazbin Hotel is a false god in similar concept, albeit original fashion to the whole gnostic concept of God: Demiurge. The True God being the "Demiurge" while the false, silly god being just a... uh, fujoshi thing that promised said True God he would play along and go with this world to do things. Finally, the knights would then reveal to be the 12 Apostles & Jesus Christ, revealing Saint Peter of Hazbin Hotel to be a fake as well.

These are the Night Sentinels from Doom 2016 + Doom Eternal - inspired by Knights' Templar armor (and also my inspiration from the Apostles & Christ's armor).

"I have come to do the work of My Father" announces Jesus, and they do an entire Doom Slayer thing, killing the denizens of Hell with incredible ease - but ALSO killing everyone in Heaven, taking hostages too - Especially Satan, which would be tortured or even killed. The false god then decided to shed some power to save some of his host of angels (don't know some of them, but I want to include Adam here), as well as denizens of Hell to be spared. You then would get something that wouldn't look out of place from a Mad Max/Fallout , with the said surviving cast finding what's left of Hell living akin to an atom bomb/TEOTWAWKI (The End Of The World As We Know It). That means, demons, imps, angels and everything else living humble lives, eating from scraps, and such effects even hitting on the humans on Earth, as the events of Revelation shall unfold and Humanity must pay the price of their sins.
And of course, you'd see beloved characters such as Nifty, Moxxie, Millie and even Loona die or have sacrifice them sacrifice in order to have their friends escape. After all - Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. (John 15:13). This could be an example of the many of the characters justifying salvation for themselves or at least ensuing a less bad ending. This raises the stakes and makes it just as Vivienne Medranno saying that she isn't afraid of killing characters.

Through Trials and Tribulations, eventually (I didn't plan this outright), you'd get to see the Apostles planning on a "Heaven on Earth" scenario, and Jesus Christ judging each person according to their works, perfectly and without a fault. The end confrontation however would be a stalemate. The goals of the Apostles and Christ were righteous, and there was nothing to stop them. However, they have a chance to start from zero, and rebuild Hell from scratch, so it can become a place were either people go to suffer in torment for eternity (which is Christ's plan) or convince him that sinners can redeem - which Adam will play a huge role.

It will show eventually that each denizen located in specific circle of Hell (Pride, Lust, Gluttony, Greed, etc) that managed to let go of its specific sin and helped the "main cast" in their tribulation, managed to attain a "mark" which could be a redemptive mark. In the end, Jesus would reveal it was in His plan to redeem sinners His own way, and cleanse sinners, albeit in a brutal way. Maybe we could shoehorn Satan breaking free, angry that "his" plan was foiled, and something like a "reduced" version of Revelation 20 happens. Satan absorbed all the unrepentant souls and grows in power and is completely stronger, and Adam completely redeems himself by giving away his life to give the Apostles a fighting chance, (maybe the false god too would do that). In the end, Jesus Christ becomes victorious.

And that's for the 1st version.

Spoiler: Movie Option #2 = Gay one

It has a few changes, key being these:

• Christ & Apostles not mentioned (or at least Jesus isn't);
• Not a huge massagre and instead be a grand plan of Heaven to be a big bad (meh);
• Instead be a dumbass show of strength and complete and maybe mutual annihilation;

Spoiler: Movie Option #3 = Comparable to #1

This is a similar to #1, :

• Similar plot in general;
• There will be a feat of strength and there will be a general gray character in general and you will see both perspectives;
• The sinners refuse to change;
• Perhaps it ends with total annihilation, showing it was fruitless in the end, despite all the effort. A bit doomer-ish, and unlike something Hazbin like.

Anyone has any criticisms, ideas, suggestions?
ADDENDUM: I think I got that photo of "God" from a fanon wikia, so my bad. Disregard it if you want. But still, if that is ever incorporated in the canon, it will be a... peculiar design, so to speak. There's even a proposed Jesus Christ design in the same fanon wikia, lol.

EDITED, PLEASE HAVE A LOOK.

 

[Cyber Bowling]

I think that she was left behind in Hell by Lute and Adam, so sinners would simply kill her in their stead. (Maybe they thought that angels couldn't kill one another? No idea). She didn't commit any sins to be condemned as a fallen angel like Lucifer. In the episode where she and Charlie go to Heaven to present the idea of redemption, Vaggie wasn't barred from entry. So, in my mind, I think that she could freely enter Hell and Heaven at any time, but she chose to stay in Hell with Charlie after being disenfranchised by Heaven's exterminations.

This was more or less what I was going to answer with. Although, I don't know if it necessarily makes sense because...if she's an angel, could the sinners even kill her? I don't remember because I was pretty checked out that late into the season, but was that her first extermination, or had she participated before, but never run into anyone that made her question things? A good, or even just semi-competent writer could explore her guilt, and it'd be interesting to see what she thinks of redemption. It always felt like she didn't necessarily believe in the hotel, but was supportive of it as an extension of being supportive to Charlie. Does she think she needs redemption? Now that I think about it, her being overly invested in the hotel because she wants to send souls to Heaven to make up for the ones she killed could be good motivation. Also, if she's technically an angel, doesn't that mean they have another superpowered individual in their corner? I know they're able to kill angels now, but if nobody knows she's an angel and isn't prepared for that, she could probably hold off an attack of "average" demons.

These are all obviously just fun what if questions/scenarios because I'd bet good money her single role in season 2 is going to be "Charlie's supportive girlfriend" and the only way she'd exist in a scene where Charlie isn't present is if she's either talking on Charlie's behalf/pushing for something that benefits Charlie. Well, that's not really fair to Viv, I should give her some credit. She might also show up in a non-speaking role in a scene that focuses on Alastor.

Oh, another interesting plot for her that I know won't be explored is people from her old life in Heaven wanting to "rescue" her from Hell, thinking that she was killed by sinners or something. Maybe they've even become exterminators themselves because they wanted to avenge her. They might be disgusted at the idea a demon was able to get into heaven, thinking it's some kind of trick because they're fully committed to the idea the exterminations were actually about stopping some sort of invasion, and they're still hurt over the loss of their close friend.

I also think the idea of a sinner being redeemed should be a much bigger deal in heaven, and not just because it means they were wrong about demons. I only thought about it from the "hell" perspective, but, from the angel point of view...if demons can be redeemed and sent to heaven, does that mean angels can sin and go to hell? Obviously there's the Lucifer in the room, but that feels like such a special case I don't think most angels would consider they could get kicked out for anything short of trying to overthrow heaven itself. Paradise is essentially about indulging in all your selfish desires, but what if those desires start to become sinful? I mean, we know some angels are into some pretty violent things based on the exterminations. Even the ones who do it out of a sense of duty might want to question themselves. Especially if they discover Vaggie is there. But even the less violent ones might be questioning if they're indulging in too much greed/gluttony/sloth behavior based on how they live out their heavenly existence. I don't think there's enough there for a full season, but it'd be interesting seeing an episode or two, or even just hearing chatter about how much things are changing in the afterlife.

Buuuut, instead of that...we're getting the Vees and a TV hypno plotline that has no stakes because, even taking Lucifer out of the equation, there's no world where anyone believes Viv would let Alastor lose.