Unschooling - We don't need no education.

[Ruin]

Once, when I was at the dentist as a kid, a mom came in with her two girls and I overheard them talking to the dentist from where I sat in my torture chair. One child was around 8 and the other was like 4. The 8 year old had more than 6 cavities and had some rotten teeth that needed to be removed. The 4 year old's whole mouth practically was rotten. I could see her teeth and they were blackened and jagged like a shark's. It seemed like they had recently moved to America from a poorer country where tooth care was not a major concern. The dentist was trying his best to talk to the mom about making sure her kids brushed but you could tell how hopeless he was towards them.
None of the "unschooled" kids look like they have good hygiene. The kid on the news channel talking about how he wonders what his life would be like in regular school had shitty teeth, messy-long hair, and one of those horrifying pubescent mustaches. It's just disgusting. I bet they stink like grease and BO.

Brushing twice a day is one of the old ass things from the fifties too like an apple a day or eight glasses of water a day. Most modern dentists recommend brushing after every meal.

 

[lesbolution]

Which is already BS since I knew how to read before I was 8!

That's like.... third grade. if your kid can't read by THIRD GRADE, you fucked up.

 

[Bassomatic]

So that Joyce Fetteroll person is on Quora
https://www.quora.com/profile/Joyce-Fetteroll

An example of her posting on there.



Her Reply (big wall of text):


So yeah, having kids who cannot read isn't a big deal.

Desire to a-log is well over 9000.

She's right some kids can't read at 10+ years old. We have a term for that mentally ill, aside that the only word is NEGLECT you monster. You notice she can't even cite a biased ass study to back her insane claim? Does she know in real academic scholars the smartest and best respected still cite out the ass? Her link to home schooling is unrelated to what she supports.

Her cop out of this question is hypothetical is the mental equal of a bratty kid sticking his finger in your face going "I'mmmmm not touching you" The results of her challenge are well recorded. It's like saying, well so and so works in a nice area so if they got shot they wouldn't die. No, they have a less chance of being shot but if they were... they would also have a pretty bad day.

If she is so anti school why is her husband supporting the system teaching math to people? I mean, it's remedial math for college kids by her claims, so it's either not important or these fools want to prolong the abuse the system gives them. So at very least morally she's ok "ripping people off"

I did a little thinking about this and how lucky I was for all the shit things happened to me and mistakes parents made they pushed me to read. Little power level, but I remember my dad had a pop up book of the Iliad and Odyssey for me. I can't get over how it's shaped me as a person. I'm having some book related feels but I'll stop.

 

[lesbolution]

my dad had a pop up book of the Iliad and Odyssey for me. I can't get over how it's shaped me as a person.

Reading is so important for kids. So important. Imagination is important to foster. How can you help your child shape their future if they can't even imagine the future to begin with?

 

[AngeloTheWizard]

Desire to a-log is well over 9000.

She's right some kids can't read at 10+ years old. We have a term for that mentally ill, aside that the only word is NEGLECT you monster. You notice she can't even cite a biased ass study to back her insane claim? Does she know in real academic scholars the smartest and best respected still cite out the ass? Her link to home schooling is unrelated to what she supports.

They're the smartest and most respected BECAUSE they cite. That's what academia is, all of us getting together to figure out the best course of action to take as we hurtle through space on a big blue rock.

 

[ICametoLurk]

https://www.amazon.com/Unschooling-Birth-Early-Elementary-Tietje/dp/1507897308

https://www.amazon.com/Kate-Tietje/e/B0057SFGV8

Name is Kate Tietje.

Her website:

http://www.modernalternativemama.com

DAMN NASTY TROLLS Why would they ever go after her?

She's Anti-Vax in addition to being unschooler and more and has quite an Internet history first being her boy breaking his arm and there being various, various different explanations for it.

https://www.facebook.com/Trololololololmore/

http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/05/why-modern-alternative-mama-katie-tietje-is-dangerous.html


http://lizditz.typepad.com/i_speak_of_dreams/2016/06/katie-tieje-gets-a-prize-.html

https://groundedparents.com/2014/10/17/im-skeptical-of-kate-tietje/

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/08/kate-tietje-and-the-7-signs-of-an-anti-vax-quack.html

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/08/wtf-kate-tietje-five-reasons-measles-is-better-than-autism.html

http://www.scibabe.com/sequel/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2...dnt-heard-of-this-antivaccine-warrior-before/

http://www.skepticalob.com/2016/06/kate-tietje-hypocrite.html

https://badscidebunked.wordpress.com/2015/06/19/modern-alternative-mamas-skin-cancer-extravaganza/

http://groundedparents.com/2014/09/10/11-things-vaccine-debate/

 

[lesbolution]

She's Anti-Vax in addition to being unschooler and more and has quite an Internet history first being her boy breaking his arm and there being various, various different explanations for it.

"Measles is better than autism"
1) no it is not, it's horribly painful and potentially deadly
2) Your responsibility as a parent is to protect your child. this includes standard medical care, and, you know, not letting them die of a completely preventable disease
3) I'm sure at least 50% of the kids that are unschooled are also unvaxxed. It's like letting your kid play by a pool, only the kid can't swim and also there's sharks. Sure they might not fall in, but why risk it? there's never a good reason to actively put your child in danger

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

"Measles is better than autism"
1) no it is not, it's horribly painful and potentially deadly
2) Your responsibility as a parent is to protect your child. this includes standard medical care, and, you know, not letting them die of a completely preventable disease
3) I'm sure at least 50% of the kids that are unschooled are also unvaxxed. It's like letting your kid play by a pool, only the kid can't swim and also there's sharks. Sure they might not fall in, but why risk it? there's never a good reason to actively put your child in danger

"But all vaccines are evil!"

I still have to ask why these people have this warped perspective about vaccinations. Because frankly, their bitching about it feels a lot more autistic than any "side effects" a fucking needle will give them. Hell if I didn't know any better, I'm almost certain they never even been to a doctor in their lives. Since if they did, they'd not be bitching about "But muh child might get the autism!"

 

[Bugaboo]

If happens if one of these anti vaxx parent's kids like step on a rusty nail or get bitten by a random cat/dog, do they refuse tetanus shots too? How do they like watching kids die from tetanus?

 

[DespotCTM]

What bugs me is that these shit-for-brains don't even introduce their kids to the amazing world of reading as in "why don't you try to learn how to write/read? We can start with a few simple words"

But nooo that would mean actually being invested in your spawn and that would take away from their precious blogging time.

 

[lesbolution]

At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if people like Cecily Kellogg keep their kids functionally illiterate so they can't go on the internet and read all the shit people talk about their mommy.

 

[Questionable Ceviche]

So do any of these horrible parents have any plans for what their child will do to support themselves once they become adults? It will be impossible for them to engage in economically productive work without the ability to read or understand numbers. It's all "blossom into their full potential" but I don't see them crowing about how homelessness, food stamps, and sex work factor into their grand plans.

 

[Bassomatic]

So do any of these horrible parents have any plans for what their child will do to support themselves once they become adults? It will be impossible for them to engage in economically productive work without the ability to read or understand numbers. It's all "blossom into their full potential" but I don't see them crowing about how homelessness, food stamps, and sex work factor into their grand plans.

Most of these people are living on some family or gov aid, so just keep the family leech tradition alive.

It'll be real bad for those who are racking up debts burning trust funds up. Honestly I really don't think people like this grasp the concept of the long game.

 

[ICametoLurk]

http://sandradodd.com/r/hollydodd

They are honestly saying how great it is that a 9 year old girl couldn't be able to read her rehearsal.

 

[Jewelsmakerguy]

At this point I wouldn't even be surprised if people like Cecily Kellogg keep their kids functionally illiterate so they can't go on the internet and read all the shit people talk about their mommy.

I always assumed that the people who taught their kids these lessons were just as illiterate. So I can't see someone like Cecily as someone who'd be able to read anything more than 1-2 sentences at a time, if that.

 

[ICametoLurk]

From that same site

I didn't know how much children could learn without reading, until I immersed myself in unschooling and my children's lives.

As their reading ability unfolded and grew, I learned things I never knew as a teacher, and that I wouldn't have learned as an unschooling mom had they happened to have read “early.” Reading isn't a prerequisite for learning. Maps can be read without knowing many words. Movies, music, museums and TV can fill a person with visions, knowledge, experiences and connections regardless of whether the person reads. Animals respond to people the same way whether the person can read or not. People can draw and paint whether they can read or not. Non-readers can recite poetry, act in plays, learn lyrics, rhyme, play with words, and talk about any topic in the world at length.

And I found another defender of kids not being able to read

http://www.jennifermcgrail.com/faq/

What if my child is resistant to learning? And similarly, what if my child is 7, 8, 9 and still not reading?

Children have a natural love of learning. It’s what they do. If they’re resistant to learning, it’s because they’ve been forced or coerced or otherwise just not readyto learn that particular thing at that particular time. And reading, like anything else, comes at different times for different people. There is not a magic window that exists in which we have to learn how to read or the opportunity will be lost. Lots of kids, both schooled and homeschooled, are not ready to read at 6. The difference is, when they’re in school they’re labeled as “slower” learners, and made to endure extra practice, special classes, more homework, tutoring, etc, because they must. catch. up. It damages their self-esteem, squashes that natural love of learning, and turns something that should be fun (reading should be fun!) into a painful and difficult chore. And for what? Maybe that child would have learned to read easily, naturally, if they were allowed to do so in another 6 months, or a year. Or two. And let’s say one child begins reading at age four, and another begins reading at age nine. When they’re both thirty, would you be able to tell which was which? They both can read!

The beauty of unschooling is that the children get to learn at their own pace, in their own way, in their own time.

And another

http://education.penelopetrunk.com/2012/04/16/you-dont-need-to-teach-reading/

Before I was a homeschooler, before I even had kids, my friend, Lisa Nielsen was running literacy programs in the New York City public schools. The first time I can remember thinking that schools were really messed up was when she told me that teaching reading in school is controversial among reading specialists.

Today Nielsen’s blog, The Innovative Educator is a great resource for understanding why kids don’t need to go to school to learn to read.

I did not teach my youngest son to read. He has been picking it up himself, often from video game instructions. Here are the arguments against teaching reading that give me the confidence to let him learn to read on his own:

1. Neurotypical kids can teach themselves to read.
My first son had minor dyslexia, and I hired a tutor to help him overcome that barrier. My second son entered kindergarten and brought home a list of words they needed to know by the end of kindergarten. He knew half of them. I don’t know how. But I knew, right then, that he did not need someone to teach him to read.

Some kids have learning disabilities and cannot learn to read without help. This is not true of most kids. Most kids are like my younger son. Some kids are not interested in reading when they are 5, or 6 or 7 or even 8. Educator Linda Dobson has declared that in a home environment where parents value reading and writing, “children will learn to read and write as naturally as they learn to walk and talk.”

2. Your kid is not going to be illiterate at age 17.
My younger brother didn’t learn to read until second grade, which was the first time he got tested. Then it was all hands on deck to get him “up to grade level.”

The thing is, my brother got a PhD in economics from University of Chicago. So it’s hard for me to believe that he would never have learned to read if no one had taught him. Eventually he would have asked, “I want to read this, can you help me?”

Education professor Peter Gray, writes about how all kids will learn to read eventually, and that by age fifteen, one cannot discern who was a very early reader and who was a very late reader.

3. Reading class is a scam.
Nielsen says “The reason that kids need to learn to read so early in school is because in school kids read about doing stuff instead of doing stuff. When kids live life outside of school they actually get to do stuff, so it’s not as important to read about it in order to learn.”

Nielsen sends me over to the video Caine’s Arcade. It’s about a boy who build an amazing working arcade out of cardboard while he was hanging out at his dad’s work all day. Nielsen says, “That video is amazing because the kid is not spending his days reading and writing. He’s spending his days doing stuff.”

4. Reading extra early is a danger sign.
In my son’s special education class, all the kids were age three, all the kids had Asperger’s Syndrome, and most of the kids could read basic words. It is not normal to learn to read early, and it’s often a sign of hyperlexia, which is often paired with compromised social skills.

And it is certain that social skills are more important to a successful life than early reading is.

The teachers met separately with each parent and explained how dangerous hyperlexia is to a developing brain. A child’s social skills are developing at a rapid rate at age three, and if the brain starts focusing on words instead of social skills, the brain loses the chance to develop those social skills. The teachers told the parents to discourage early reading.

5. Reading out loud is a joy.
If your kid can’t read to himself then he will love it when you read to him. And that’s a treat. You get that intimate reading time for only a short span of your life with your kid. Why cut it short?

I learned from working in my family’s bookstore for ten years that as soon as kids can read themselves, they don’t want their parents to read to them. You never know when your kid will say no.

So instead of pushing reading lessons, just keep reading out loud. It’s the best possible lesson in why reading is important and fun. And the more tantalizing you make the story, the more your child will want to access the story for himself.

Oh and I found Sandra Dodd's book

https://books.google.com/books?id=vIJRAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq="not+Reading"+"unschooling"&source=bl&ots=hSE6wc1e5S&sig=ZP8Q-eSYWL1JJ9R--jxcUoVNcJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwielejnkazQAhUH7WMKHcg8AP04ChDoAQglMAI#v=onepage&q=%22not%20Reading%22%20%22unschooling%22&f=false

These people just call kids who cannot read at the age of 9 to be "late readers"

http://livingtheeducationrevolution.co.uk/how-late-is-a-late-reader/

Oh yeah, if a kid cannot read when they are 9 years old it's because they are right-side of the brain oriented.

http://www.therightsideofnormal.com

http://www.therightsideofnormal.com/reading/late-reader-stories/

 

[Lunete]

Well at least these kids all have nice clean places to come home to.

Spoiler: wait...

 

[ICametoLurk]

To understand how unschoolers view education, simply take these common and widely held beliefs about sex, and replace the word "sex" with the word "learning."

To understand how unschoolers view current education policy, simply take the following common statements about education and replace the word "learning" with the word "sex."

http://carolblack.org/learning-sex/

During this recording, Laurette asked me what my inspiration was in writing the article, “Time to Rethink Radical Unschooling”, and the list is quite endless. Some of the highlights include; Radical Unschooling supporting children having sex, RU gurus putting their ambitions for reality TV stardom over the needs of the same Radical Unschool families they claim to support, and reading countless emails where parents are more confused than ever over whether or not they should compromise on their children’s hygiene and diet, lest they be attacked as being “coercive”, disrespectful of their children, and “not doing Radical Unschool” right. Adding all this, I came across one particular post where the mother was so broken over her experience with Radical Unschooling that she felt lost and alone. I decided, enough is enough. (I included her post in the article so parents themselves can read it). This bullying of parents has crossed over into immoral, and the least I can do for these parents is to call out the abuse and bring light to the Radical Unschooling agenda. There are mangled parents suffering and struggling to find their intuition once again, because they abdicated it to a Pseudo-faux-philosophy that failed them. My concern is now THEM, those families, and that made my decision to write the article, very… VERY easy.

http://www.unpluggedmom.com/umradio-podcast/liberation-from-the-unschooling-gestapo/

Article in question:
https://web.archive.org/web/2013042...ject.com/time-to-rethink-radical-unschooling/

The Podcast and the Article are about Radical Unschooling from the viewpoints of Unschoolers and is about how there is a toxic community in it.

 

[Dumpsterfire]

Wait, so now being able to read quickly is a sign of the autisms? I can just imagine some nine year old disappointing their parents by asking for a book.

 

[Male Idiot]

In the first and second world, this is literally a guarantee that your child will be useless and homeless and will never get a job.

In the third world? I guess you can learn more about being a hunter gatherer, drug smuggler or sweatshop worker on the streets than in the school, but even there its not the best strategy.