Unschooling - We don't need no education.

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lesbolution said:
Half the time kids want to do exceptional shit like eat butterflies anyway. saying no is not that difficult.
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But dealing with the brat bawling or gking back to doing that shit moments later makes most parents reluctant to do that, but then again said parents are a good reason for parenting licenses
 
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King Kong... with wings? said:
But dealing with the brat bawling or gking back to doing that shit moments later makes most parents reluctant to do that, but then again said parents are a good reason for parenting licenses
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In a lot of cases in early years the entire freaking point is to say no. Children learn from an early age that parents have boundaries and this is the time when they learn what those boundaries are. A parent who says no to absolutely everything does indeed run the risk of having either a nervous child who's afraid to do anything or a rebellious little shit who knows they'll never do anything right so they might as well not listen. But parents who don't say no enough or at all....fuck I don't envy them. They end up with children who have no respect for rules, for boundaries or for anyone elses regard. As far as they're concerned they get away with it at home so they can get away with it everywhere. These kids are the fucking worst in classrooms which explains why many unschoolers went this route, chances are their snowflakes were getting them called into meetings all the time and rather than regulate the behaviour, they blamed the teachers and the system and pulled their children out. With teachers already stressed as balls with workload and time issues, Im sure they were more than happy to see the back of little Timmy Speshul and wouldn't try too hard to keep the parent from yanking them.
 
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Lalala said:
In a lot of cases in early years the entire freaking point is to say no. Children learn from an early age that parents have boundaries and this is the time when they learn what those boundaries are. A parent who says no to absolutely everything does indeed run the risk of having either a nervous child who's afraid to do anything or a rebellious little shit who knows they'll never do anything right so they might as well not listen. But parents who don't say no enough or at all....fuck I don't envy them. They end up with children who have no respect for rules, for boundaries or for anyone elses regard. As far as they're concerned they get away with it at home so they can get away with it everywhere. These kids are the fucking worst in classrooms which explains why many unschoolers went this route, chances are their snowflakes were getting them called into meetings all the time and rather than regulate the behaviour, they blamed the teachers and the system and pulled their children out. With teachers already stressed as balls with workload and time issues, Im sure they were more than happy to see the back of little Timmy Speshul and wouldn't try too hard to keep the parent from yanking them.
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Yeah. some people arent meant to raise kids
 
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ICametoLurk said:
http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/teens-just-starting-to-read

http://www.joyfullyrejoycing.com/my-6-year-old-isnt-reading-yet
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This website is fucking insane. It's like reading those blogs made by really batshit insane fundamentalist families.

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Or maybe if they'd been in school those kids would've learned to read before they reached fucking puberty?

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:stress:
 
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I can really laugh at others sufferings, to a point I feel I may be a fundamentally broken or bad person. The one bugaboo I hold is not being able to read. Something about it is just heart breaking.

Being in your teens in the developed world, there is no excuse and only one way to sum it up, it's abuse. You have to be pretty much chained to a radiator in a literal or figurative way to be unable to read in the first world. Posting in such a relaxed state if not smug, oh little Tommy is 14 and we finally getting around to 1 fish 2. fish.
 
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I love how many of these moms seriously think that video games are a good and valuable learning tool. I've heard other people (mainly gamers) make this claim too and it is bull-fucking-shit.
Video games are a product that is sold. Video game companies want to make money from selling their video games. They are designed to be addictive so that people will get hooked on them and want to download more content, buy the latest game, purchase accessories, wear clothing advertising the game, buy guidebooks, et cetera. There's a reason why people spend hundreds of dollars on video games and paraphernalia but do not spend hundreds of dollars on other things that might encourage problem-solving or hand-eye coordination. Console games are bad with this but apps are a billion times worse - apps are the fucking heroin of entertainment.
For every 1 second of learning material these kids are getting from obsessive video game playing, they are getting 1 hour of addictive content, instant gratification, pacifying, and advertisement. The only vaguely educational thing mentioned was that kid trying to learn how to set up his own Minecraft server, which isn't directly part of the gameplay.

I'm not against video games. But they aren't "good for you" or "educational" any more than television is.
 
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The older you get the harder it is to learn new skills, so if you haven't learned to read by age 10 you're gonna have a hell of a time learning to read.
Also, mother fucker, 4 year old with 6 fucking cavities? Not teaching a kid to brush their teeth is like teaching a kid that Mcdonald's is healthy food. It will only lead to 10000's of problems in the future
 
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Bugaboo said:
Also, mother fucker, 4 year old with 6 fucking cavities? Not teaching a kid to brush their teeth is like teaching a kid that Mcdonald's is healthy food. It will only lead to 10000's of problems in the future
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Once, when I was at the dentist as a kid, a mom came in with her two girls and I overheard them talking to the dentist from where I sat in my torture chair. One child was around 8 and the other was like 4. The 8 year old had more than 6 cavities and had some rotten teeth that needed to be removed. The 4 year old's whole mouth practically was rotten. I could see her teeth and they were blackened and jagged like a shark's. It seemed like they had recently moved to America from a poorer country where tooth care was not a major concern. The dentist was trying his best to talk to the mom about making sure her kids brushed but you could tell how hopeless he was towards them.
None of the "unschooled" kids look like they have good hygiene. The kid on the news channel talking about how he wonders what his life would be like in regular school had shitty teeth, messy-long hair, and one of those horrifying pubescent mustaches. It's just disgusting. I bet they stink like grease and BO.
 
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Found this other woman that Google auto-selected for me, Pam Laricchia who has a site called http://livingjoyfully.ca (hahaha)

http://livingjoyfully.ca/articles/everything-i-need-to-know/
Everything I Need to Know I Learned from Video Games


by Pam Laricchia
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In it she actually defends kids using cheat-codes when playing vidya games as a part of unschooling lol
And lest you think that cheats are for cheaters, let’s take a quick look at them. When you think of how most games are designed, you realize there are a number of variables that the player needs keep track of—like health, current location / map, weapons, enemy type / weaknesses etc. The player needs to be on top of all these things to successfully navigate the game. What a cheat often does is basically fix one of these variables so the player no longer needs to worry about it—he can concentrate on mastering the others. For example, a cheat may give you infinite health. At first you think, “What a waste, where’s the challenge then?” but look a bit further. Now they can concentrate on say, learning their way around the level using the map, or practicing battles with their weaker weapons to improve their skills. And they learn that sometimes fixing one variable has unexpected consequences.
Other cheats bring the object-oriented code to life. In The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time there are cheats so that you can change the colour of Link’s tunic and his size. Simple and meaningless you think. But no—they will likely notice that his tunic colour has changed even in the game introduction, not just the game itself. How when they enlarge Link he is bigger than the gate, even the building, but he still cannot enter when it’s locked. How he doesn’t look like he’s moving when he steps because although he takes up most of the screen the code for walking still moves him the same distance.

And in The Simpsons Hit & Run there is a cheat so the car will bounce. “What on earth for?!” you think. But playing around with it you discover something interesting. When you bounce high over the houses near the edge of the level, you can see behind them. There is nothing there. You have reached the end of the code. The designers never imagined that a user would be able to see past the houses, so they didn’t bother adding anything. It is just empty space. Interesting!

These cheats make the code come alive before their eyes. They begin to understand how code works. They may not be able to explain it, but they intuitively understand it. And if in the course of their lives it comes up, they’ll understand the technical terms immediately because they have seen it in action. It will connect to their gaming experience and have meaning. I will never look at cheats the same way again.
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PolexiaAphrodisia said:
Once, when I was at the dentist as a kid, a mom came in with her two girls and I overheard them talking to the dentist from where I sat in my torture chair. One child was around 8 and the other was like 4. The 8 year old had more than 6 cavities and had some rotten teeth that needed to be removed. The 4 year old's whole mouth practically was rotten. I could see her teeth and they were blackened and jagged like a shark's. It seemed like they had recently moved to America from a poorer country where tooth care was not a major concern. The dentist was trying his best to talk to the mom about making sure her kids brushed but you could tell how hopeless he was towards them.
None of the "unschooled" kids look like they have good hygiene. The kid on the news channel talking about how he wonders what his life would be like in regular school had shitty teeth, messy-long hair, and one of those horrifying pubescent mustaches. It's just disgusting. I bet they stink like grease and BO.
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Did the mother look like she had a mouthful of shit as well? Because from the few we've actually seen. The mothers have similarly shitty hygiene.
 
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PolexiaAphrodisia said:
I love how many of these moms seriously think that video games are a good and valuable learning tool. I've heard other people (mainly gamers) make this claim too and it is bull-fucking-shit.
Video games are a product that is sold. Video game companies want to make money from selling their video games. They are designed to be addictive so that people will get hooked on them and want to download more content, buy the latest game, purchase accessories, wear clothing advertising the game, buy guidebooks, et cetera. There's a reason why people spend hundreds of dollars on video games and paraphernalia but do not spend hundreds of dollars on other things that might encourage problem-solving or hand-eye coordination. Console games are bad with this but apps are a billion times worse - apps are the fucking heroin of entertainment.
For every 1 second of learning material these kids are getting from obsessive video game playing, they are getting 1 hour of addictive content, instant gratification, pacifying, and advertisement. The only vaguely educational thing mentioned was that kid trying to learn how to set up his own Minecraft server, which isn't directly part of the gameplay.

I'm not against video games. But they aren't "good for you" or "educational" any more than television is.
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If anything, it's teaching kids to be awful consumers.

PolexiaAphrodisia said:
Once, when I was at the dentist as a kid, a mom came in with her two girls and I overheard them talking to the dentist from where I sat in my torture chair. One child was around 8 and the other was like 4. The 8 year old had more than 6 cavities and had some rotten teeth that needed to be removed. The 4 year old's whole mouth practically was rotten. I could see her teeth and they were blackened and jagged like a shark's. It seemed like they had recently moved to America from a poorer country where tooth care was not a major concern. The dentist was trying his best to talk to the mom about making sure her kids brushed but you could tell how hopeless he was towards them.
None of the "unschooled" kids look like they have good hygiene. The kid on the news channel talking about how he wonders what his life would be like in regular school had shitty teeth, messy-long hair, and one of those horrifying pubescent mustaches. It's just disgusting. I bet they stink like grease and BO.
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They're certainly the "Lost Children" as I put it.
 
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So that Joyce Fetteroll person is on Quora
https://www.quora.com/profile/Joyce-Fetteroll

An example of her posting on there.

Is it child abuse if a parent neglects a child's education so much that they cannot read?
Drawing a line before 5th grade, but not earlier than 3rd, and barring any disabilities serious enough to affect their ability to read by that age.

Should the state then take the child from the parent? Does that amount to abuse?
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Her Reply (big wall of text):
No. Not all children are reading in school by 8 or 9. Some kids aren’t developmentally ready to read until 11 or 12 some even later. In school later readers have spent 6 years pressured to do something they physically aren’t able to do yet. Kids who read later as homeschoolers spend those 6 years learning in ways that are more natural to them. Once they begin reading, they’re shortly up to level with their age mates.

I know that flies in the face of common wisdom. But common wisdom has zero experience with kids who’ve been growing in an environment that supports their learning to read when they’re ready instead of being instructed.

What’s tragic is that most educators CAN’T know that children read when they’re developmentally ready. They’re only allowed to experience children who’ve been instructed, some as early as 3 and 4.

Homeschoolers who know children read when they’re developmentally ready know from experience that it happens. Teachers can’t know it because children are being instructed earlier and earlier.

If you’d like to read about how unschooled children Learn to Read Naturally there are dozens of stories at the link.

EDIT, based on some questions in the Comments.

At what age should a parent worry if their child is not yet reading?

My answer would be different for a homeschooling parent asking about their child reading than it would be for anyone else asking

If a schooling parent asks, I'd say learn more about homeschooling. If it was a homeschooling parent asking about someone else's child I'd add in reading about how unschooling children learn. Read John Holt. Read unschooling parents experiences with their children learning to read. Unschooling parents replace instruction with hands on learning through interests.They replace reading instruction with reading to kids and answering their questions. When unschooling children are developmentally ready they read.

In school a later reading child would be handicapped because schools -- to allow schools to function -- depend on children reading independently by 4th grade. At home it's a non-issue. Kids can learn in ways that are more natural for them. They can listen. They can do. They can ask questions. They can watch. Unschooled kids have no problem finding ways to learn whatever they want without reading.

If a homeschooling parent asked about their own child, I'd ask more questions. I'd find out what the parent had been doing, what the child was doing, what the parent's understanding of learning to read was, what their concern looked like and how it affected their child.

One non-reading 11 year old may not be developmentally ready. Another may have been traumatized by pressure in school. Another may have pulled away from reading because of pressure by a parent. Another may have a mother hovering and worrying. My daughter didn't read a novel until she was 12 or so. She could read before that but chose not to. Then through audio books she discovered an adult mystery series she loved and she just took off from there. As a young adult she's never without a book she's reading.

Experience, environment, development, personality will all play a much larger part in why a child isn't reading than their age. So my answer wouldn't be based on age. It would be based on what's going on with the child.

One reason people have embraced homeschooling is the rejection of the idea that children can be treated uniformly by their age. Their personalities, interests, learning styles, innate skills, environment are far far more important factors in learning. The only factor age plays is that the important factors all change with age.

Schools divide kids up by age because they have one teacher managing 30 students. Dividing kids up by age is convenient for schools. It's for the purposes of school, not because the children need divided up by age.

Another answerer mentioned that she thought homeschoolers were part of the illiteracy problem.

Only 3% of families homeschool. Even if every singe one of those kids was illiterate it would hardly be a drop in the bucket of illiteracy in America.

But they aren't. Most parents homeschool to provide an environment that's better suited to their children's learning needs than the generic (supposedly) one-size-fits-all environment of school. Their goal is to do better than school not worse!

So the statement is utter nonsense.

While some parents homeschool for isolationist religious reasons and some to escape modern society, they're a small fraction of that 3%. And even they want their kids to read! The number who are failing is tiny among homeschoolers and minuscule compared to schools.

If anyone is truly concerned about illiteracy in America it's illiteracy in schools where they should focus their concern. Why are there kids in school who can't read when they're supposedly being handled by experts?

Illiteracy isn't caused by a lack of expertise in teaching reading. It's caused by environment that doesn't support a child learning to read when they're developmentally ready. Instructing a child in reading before they're developmentally ready makes as much sense as walking lessons for a 6 month old and speaking lessons for a 3 month old.

The reason I know development and environment are the key factors in literacy is from 20 years of experience with unschooling families. Without instruction and with an environment that supports children reading, the ability to read clicks when kids are developmentally ready. It might be at 3. It might be at 12. Even if it's late, unschooling kids are shortly, within weeks or months, reading at the level of their age-mates.

Schools don't have the luxury of creating the environment that each child needs. So they instruct kids based on age rather than an individual's developmental ability. Schools aren't designed for individualized learning.

Homeschooling seems to me like it would have rather variable outcomes —perhaps more so than public schools. Is that the case?

It seems like it. And to a desert dweller oceans would seem impossible.

Schools are designed for mass instruction. The original purpose of public schools was to raise the minimum level of education of the masses. They were never designed to nurture individual learning. The design of schools hasn't changed from the model for mass education.

Parents who want to tailor learning to their child won't get results at any stage that look like school. If school is used as some universal standard, the less the homeschooling looks like school, the more the parents will look like they're failing. But the more the parents understand the difference between the needs of mass instruction and the learning needs of their own child, the more they'll realize how nonsensical it is to use school as a measuring stick. They look directly at their children and their children's needs and help them where they are.

It would be like using the equipment, steps and standards that Wonder Bread uses to make their uniform squishy white bread to bake a loaf of whole wheat walnut bread. While also recognizing that Wonder Bread -- as do schools -- has a certain level of scrap that they expect to produce.

Where's the evidence that school-like learning is the gold standard? My husband is a college adjunct. He teaches remedial math to college students. The kids in his class aren't homeschooled students! These are public school students. He's teaching them what schools are failing to teach them.

Do you have any stats for how home schoolers perform on standardized testing?

There's National Home Education Research Institute (NHERI) Research Facts on Homeschooling . They should have statistics.

Some homeschoolers try to recreate school at home. Some shoot for school standards in other ways. They're the ones who are more likely to take standardized tests. So standardized testing results of homeschoolers is self-selecting. Families who are homeschooling totally different from school aren't likely to see worth in standardized tests.

My daughter whose homeschooling looked nothing like school took the SATs. All we did was go through the practice tests so she could get a feel for what it was like. We talked strategy like guessing when you could narrow the answers down to 2 and skipping the questions she had no idea on (since wrong answers are penalized.) It was her first ever test like that. She performed about the middle of the pack. She says she knows she could do better if she took it again.

So what did 12+ years of instruction do for the kids who had the same score or less that she got without all the supposedly necessary school preparation? Considering my husband's job teaching remedial math to college students, school instruction is harming many of them.

I changed the question details to 3rd-5th grade,out of respect for your answer.

Because the child in question is now a 3rd-5th grader? Or because this is a hypothetical child?

Hypothetical children don’t read. They’re mental constructs. All sorts of reasonable-sounding reasons why a hypothetical child isn’t reading could be made up. But do those reasons happen in reality? The reasons may sound possible, but that doesn’t mean they actually happen.

Why a child isn’t doing something is more important than what they’re not doing. Real children have real reasons that can be dug into and analyzed. Parents can tweak the environment to see what happens. On the other hand, hypothetical children have a creator making everything up to suit the answer they want for their question.
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So yeah, having kids who cannot read isn't a big deal.
 
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