- Joined
- Feb 14, 2023
Joe is back to ignoring the actual problem
link | archive
This is not surprising, given Joe’s views on fists in women’s faces.
BTW, Joe’s Twitter name formerly included Professor - an earlier example:
That has now disappeared.
He’s still on the Berkeley website.
link | archive
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
I’ll reiterate the disclaimer that I really don’t give a hoot about sports, but the Imani Khelif outrage exposes the rot at the core of the terf argument. To exclude her from the Olympics, the IOC would have to convene classes on the basis of T-level, not of gametes size.
Although, now we can finally see a consensus way forward: Low-T Olympics. Women who want to compete against Khelif (every competitor I’ve read) can do so, and anyone who wants to play in the hormone-limited class can do so. Three competitive classes: men, women, and terfs.
We can introduce these three classes of person across a range of social domains, too. Public bathrooms—no more anxiety about clocking people in the women’s toilet; terfs can reassure themselves with a simple blood test or AI-based genital scan at the entrance.
It’s time for us to admit that third-space advocacy for terfs is the future. Let those who feel comforted by surveillance use facilities where they can be consistently surveilled, without requiring the rest of us to play along with their eccentric ideas.
(I, myself, would be more interested in watching a Fat Olympics, or a Wheezy Olympics. Anything where bodies can be valued for anything other than their capacity for violence.)
annikusrex
@annikusrex
14h
mmm, this is wrong. the previous IBA rule that excluded Khelif was (no XY) and entailed a DNA test, not a T test. most other sports would have excluded her on the basis of a specific identified DSD--which comes along w/male T ranges, but they aren't testing for T.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
12h
“ranges” provoked by sexual development caused by an unusual quantum of what? clue: it begins with T.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
all these aspects are related. but it's inaccurate and needlessly anxiety-producing to say they're dividing by T when the rules clearly, demonstrably, divide by chromosomes and/or DSDs. these are not women with randomly high T; they are women with certain (often enumerated) DSDs.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
The diagnostic category "DSDs" is a way of measuring the effect that T has had on a body, deciding how much is too much, and creating social distinctions accordingly.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
mmm, i think they are first ID'd with a DNA test and then further diagnostic criteria are applied. anyway, i agree the relevant DSDs (wh/are enumerated bc they produce advantage in sports) entail male levels of T. but that's not what they're measuring and it's not the division.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
Not the present level of T, the *effect* of testosterone on the developmental body. It's a measurement of testosterone, which is produced naturally, in a body nobody disputes is both (a) female and (b) unusual. Except for the ReSister on my thread saying "he's a man."
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
oh, hmm, most people would dispute female body. khelif is probably 5-ard, the same DSD as semenya. this condition entails often ambiguous genitalia, sometimes growth of a penis at puberty, and internal testes. male puberty. no ovaries, no uterus.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
in the US, btw, the medical establishment recommends raising 5-ard kids as boys because so many switch gender ID at puberty. very interesting.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
teenagers must never be allowed to choose their own puberty, at any cost! J. D. Vance will have us all in prison before that happens. but in any case, you've neatly but conspicuously dodged the point: hormones are the *vehicle* of "differences in sex development."
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
i agree with this latter point, & i'm glad to hear you talking about the imp. of historical T, but you were talking about converting female/male sports categories into high/low & that's not where we've arrived. hopefully jd vance will slink back to some dark maga cave in nov
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
it's only T, all the way down. produced naturally by pretty much all bodies, supplemented synthetically in some, for a variety of reasons. what a troublesome chemical. deregulation now
ultraLondonReSister ⚢
@LondonReSisters
11h
He's male. y chromosome. The end.
monnainnominata
@monnainnominat1
12h
Grace, do you even bother to read the first thing about what you comment upon ex cathedra? If so you’d know that the Khelif case has nothing to do with testosterone. Stick to literary criticism.
@graceelavery
I’ll reiterate the disclaimer that I really don’t give a hoot about sports, but the Imani Khelif outrage exposes the rot at the core of the terf argument. To exclude her from the Olympics, the IOC would have to convene classes on the basis of T-level, not of gametes size.
Although, now we can finally see a consensus way forward: Low-T Olympics. Women who want to compete against Khelif (every competitor I’ve read) can do so, and anyone who wants to play in the hormone-limited class can do so. Three competitive classes: men, women, and terfs.
We can introduce these three classes of person across a range of social domains, too. Public bathrooms—no more anxiety about clocking people in the women’s toilet; terfs can reassure themselves with a simple blood test or AI-based genital scan at the entrance.
It’s time for us to admit that third-space advocacy for terfs is the future. Let those who feel comforted by surveillance use facilities where they can be consistently surveilled, without requiring the rest of us to play along with their eccentric ideas.
(I, myself, would be more interested in watching a Fat Olympics, or a Wheezy Olympics. Anything where bodies can be valued for anything other than their capacity for violence.)
annikusrex
@annikusrex
14h
mmm, this is wrong. the previous IBA rule that excluded Khelif was (no XY) and entailed a DNA test, not a T test. most other sports would have excluded her on the basis of a specific identified DSD--which comes along w/male T ranges, but they aren't testing for T.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
12h
“ranges” provoked by sexual development caused by an unusual quantum of what? clue: it begins with T.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
all these aspects are related. but it's inaccurate and needlessly anxiety-producing to say they're dividing by T when the rules clearly, demonstrably, divide by chromosomes and/or DSDs. these are not women with randomly high T; they are women with certain (often enumerated) DSDs.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
The diagnostic category "DSDs" is a way of measuring the effect that T has had on a body, deciding how much is too much, and creating social distinctions accordingly.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
mmm, i think they are first ID'd with a DNA test and then further diagnostic criteria are applied. anyway, i agree the relevant DSDs (wh/are enumerated bc they produce advantage in sports) entail male levels of T. but that's not what they're measuring and it's not the division.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
Not the present level of T, the *effect* of testosterone on the developmental body. It's a measurement of testosterone, which is produced naturally, in a body nobody disputes is both (a) female and (b) unusual. Except for the ReSister on my thread saying "he's a man."
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
oh, hmm, most people would dispute female body. khelif is probably 5-ard, the same DSD as semenya. this condition entails often ambiguous genitalia, sometimes growth of a penis at puberty, and internal testes. male puberty. no ovaries, no uterus.
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
in the US, btw, the medical establishment recommends raising 5-ard kids as boys because so many switch gender ID at puberty. very interesting.
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
teenagers must never be allowed to choose their own puberty, at any cost! J. D. Vance will have us all in prison before that happens. but in any case, you've neatly but conspicuously dodged the point: hormones are the *vehicle* of "differences in sex development."
annikusrex
@annikusrex
11h
i agree with this latter point, & i'm glad to hear you talking about the imp. of historical T, but you were talking about converting female/male sports categories into high/low & that's not where we've arrived. hopefully jd vance will slink back to some dark maga cave in nov
Grace Lavery
@graceelavery
11h
it's only T, all the way down. produced naturally by pretty much all bodies, supplemented synthetically in some, for a variety of reasons. what a troublesome chemical. deregulation now
ultraLondonReSister ⚢
@LondonReSisters
11h
He's male. y chromosome. The end.
monnainnominata
@monnainnominat1
12h
Grace, do you even bother to read the first thing about what you comment upon ex cathedra? If so you’d know that the Khelif case has nothing to do with testosterone. Stick to literary criticism.
This is not surprising, given Joe’s views on fists in women’s faces.
BTW, Joe’s Twitter name formerly included Professor - an earlier example:
That has now disappeared.
He’s still on the Berkeley website.
