YABookgate

It's a cliche, but a reasonable one because you don't need a man's muscles to kill someone with a bow.
It kind of makes sense if the character has access to at least a recurve bow, but really if it's supposed to be a modern setting there should be a bunch of pulleys on the thing.
Otherwise I'm not seeing it as much, the muscles you need to aim correctly (and not just wobble all over the place) aren't generally developed enough even in a story like The Hunger Games where you would expect people to be stronger than randoms from some midwest city today.
Women take more time to develop that kind of strength, and because of how people like to write YA it's not usually given.
 
Why do YA stories always veer towards fantasy and mythology rather than sci-fi unless it involves a dystopia or is heavily based around superpowers? It would be so nice for a YA novel to just have lots of cool gadgets and tech and take place in space or on another planet, but that doesn't happen most of the time.
I think it has to do with the idea fantasy stories are more person oriented, drama oriented, etc... Whereas sci-fi or even science fantasy stories are more environment, or technology oriented. One genre deals with the personal whereas the other deals with the impersonal. Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule. You can have fantasy stories where the magic (as a stand in for technology) or the environment plays a more important role than personal conflict/drama. Just as you can have a sci-fi story where the personal conflicts of the characters is more important than the setting.

Could also just be most female writers can't be bothered to expand their horizons and read outside their genre. Hence why we seem to get retreads of the same story every other book in YA. With the bow, and the love interest. So on and so on.
 
Why do YA stories always veer towards fantasy and mythology rather than sci-fi unless it involves a dystopia or is heavily based around superpowers? It would be so nice for a YA novel to just have lots of cool gadgets and tech and take place in space or on another planet, but that doesn't happen most of the time.
Because scifi and tech are things - which males always orient towards. Fantasy is about "magic" which means it can run on people and feelings which women orient towards.

I mean just go to tiktok or some other hell site and see how much you can find of women talking about "manifesting" things.

The Narnia stuff confused me because I didn't read the books until college. I had always assumed TLTWATR came first.

Also them just fridging Susan because she discovered makeup and fashion.................😒
You gonna start triggering my autism....
 
I think it has to do with the idea fantasy stories are more person oriented, drama oriented, etc... Whereas sci-fi or even science fantasy stories are more environment, or technology oriented. One genre deals with the personal whereas the other deals with the impersonal. Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule. You can have fantasy stories where the magic (as a stand in for technology) or the environment plays a more important role than personal conflict/drama. Just as you can have a sci-fi story where the personal conflicts of the characters is more important than the setting.
Or, as such, fantasy's easy to justify magical elements and giving the characters powers based on emotions and shit. You can just invent more races, invent more bullshit. Etc. Don't wanna use real world because history is icky? Use fantasy and make shit up.

I don't often see women oriented overly emotional/gooning sci-fi and I'm glad.


Could also just be most female writers can't be bothered to expand their horizons and read outside their genre. Hence why we seem to get retreads of the same story every other book in YA. With the bow, and the love interest. So on and so on.
that too. I think the ones that do/did that turned into ones that were well-rounded, but the ones that didn't wind up running the SFWA or whatever.

But also reading stuff from the past means you're succumbing to the patriarchy or sth. I recall seeing that one of the recentish Hugo or some other big industry award shill was a sci-fi YA novel that was just "Enders Game but written by a lesbian, for lesbians" because they wanted to own Card for being anti-woke. Another big winner of some fantasy award in recent years was a negress that wrote YA Black Power Fantasy with Sex and Cussing.

It's disheartening to see this shit get pushed and it's always modern women pulling this shit.
Because scifi and tech are things - which males always orient towards. Fantasy is about "magic" which means it can run on people and feelings which women orient towards.

I mean just go to tiktok or some other hell site and see how much you can find of women talking about "manifesting" things.


You gonna start triggering my autism....
Sci-Fi has worlds that, ultimately, run on stuff we can conceive as potentially possible if we stretch things. Fantasy's more on being steeped in analogy and a blend of our folklore/myth/mysticisms.


What women don't like are the more historical based fantasies, or shit like the s&s genres. Chicks never seem to dig proper historical fiction unless it involves some weird sex shit. Same with s&s (do you really see modern women championing C. L. Moore and Leigh Brackett, who essentially did write sword and sorcery or sword and planet stories? )

Let's look at all the big acclaimed classic fantasies that pop to my mind. Lord of The Rings. A grand journey with the heroes having to face trials and tribulations. Conan the Barbarian tales are stories of a wandering adventurer's life that depict a competent and courageous warrior against a savage world. Elric of Melnibone depicts a very sickly man struggle with a very steeply uphill battle against the world. Lord of Light shows the journey of a reincarnated (?) hero-ish figure. Etc.


Male fantasy is about the journey and the trials. Female fantasy is about muh emotions and showing off how the mary sue is a badass woman. I think every female fantasy/sci fi writer in the west that I hear about in this generation (let's say millennials and under) has a habit of wanting to be famous and have something to justify an ego. Due to my experiences with english literature academia, it's what I've often heard this demographic of female writers display in their subject matter and mannerisms. They then start immediately "deconstruction" traditionally male-appealing works/genres and going on about how their "feminist reconstruction" is a work of art. Which leads to funny scenarios where they do this and then get upset when it doesn't sell or gets criticized.

I wouldn't have an issue with all this if they would stop being so aggressive about their cope and would stop shitting up social media and MSM with constant whinging in such a manipulatively entitled manner as if history was just going to turn them into popular girlbosses. I don't give a FUCK about Gail Simone or J. K. Rowling. I'm a dude. I grew up reading stories about normal men doing normally manly things. If I want to get in touch with my emotions and figure those out, I'll read The Old Man and the Sea again. I don't understand the need for constant emotional exploration and the rationalization that a lot of women and beta males have of "my emotions are someone's else's fault and not my responsibility."


Rant over.



Anyways kiwis, given the rampant infestation in just about every popular genre in mainstream publishing, what would be a list of kino YA books you'd recommend to parents and educators? Aside from the usual Narnia books, Hobbit, and whatnot. I was thinking the Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew books and Heinlein/Asimov juveniles along with le Guin's Earthsea would be a well rounded addition. Maybe add in Bullfinch's mythology books.
 
They then start immediately "deconstruction" traditionally male-appealing works/genres and going on about how their "feminist reconstruction" is a work of art.
This habit of theirs pisses me off to no end. They always have to do a feminist retelling of something a man wrote. Like all those stupid feminist retellings of greek myths that were popular a while ago (is that still a thing?). These people aren't creativity, their hacks who suck out all the air for the competition with accusations of sexism and wrongthink, At least they haven't made a remake of Moby Dick.

"Enders Game but written by a lesbian, for lesbians" because they wanted to own Card for being anti-woke.
Like as a person with self-respect, I couldn't see myself devoting the time and energy to write such a work just to use it as vehicle shit all over the inspiring author. What a waste of what limited time you have on this earth.

a list of kino YA books you'd recommend to parents and educators?
I wish I had some to give you. I don't read YA or adjacent. There's a lot of great work out there, but I wouldn't them recommend for young reads due to sexual content or the violence.
 
Why do YA stories always veer towards fantasy and mythology rather than sci-fi unless it involves a dystopia or is heavily based around superpowers? It would be so nice for a YA novel to just have lots of cool gadgets and tech and take place in space or on another planet, but that doesn't happen most of the time.

This is actually a question that has a very complex answer. People are going to wave it off with "everyone is dumb" but it's not so easy as that.

The upper level answer is MONEY.

One of the discussions earlier in this thread were about the current marketing tactics used by publishers. There seems to be a twofold issue happening:

Traditionally "male" genres don't have "boosters" ie: mega-fans who really push SF stories. The demographic who used to read SF have largely moved into gaming or if they do read, they read light novels and military SF that is self-published. It's been an ongoing problem that new male authors in the Traditional Publishing space are having trouble getting debut novel traction.

With a lowering of marketing budgets in general, publishers have handed off a lot of marketing to social media creators and influencers. The initial outlay is minimal-to-nothing, but a book reviewed positively by someone with nearly 100K followers will result in a best-seller and the costs of producing the book being recuperated in a very short time. Successes in this area are Colleen Hoover (It Ends With Us) and Rebecca Yarros (Fourth Wing)

Short-form and highly visual Social media - especially Tik-Tok and Instagram is mostly populated by time-rich young women (just prior to the time-suck that is Job AND kids). This means the media that appeals to them will be fairly adjacent to romance and fantasy UNLESS there is a solid, identifiable female protagonist, and yes, a "feminist re-telling".

This narrow window of opportunity impacts the kind of books that are acquired by publishers right at the deal stage - given the choice of a debut male writer with a solid SF book, and a debut female writer with a romance YA... MONEY and the previous successes of similar books dictates only one of these has a solid chance of breaking even.

Clever writers have obfuscated their gender in this field.

There are still SF writers being published, male author debuts and male-aligned fantasy. But they are COMPLETELY IGNORED BY AUDIENCES. There is nobody buying their books to the extent that publishers change their mind about their current strategy. The only ones selling are old stalwarts of decades like the Martins and Sandersons.
 
I was thinking the Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew books and Heinlein/Asimov juveniles along with le Guin's Earthsea would be a well rounded addition. Maybe add in Bullfinch's mythology books.
Actually the Hardy Boys have already been subject to edits. (Wasn't it this thread someone posted about this?)

Anyway, if you want to, you can find some deep dives into the different iterations of them. If you want to get any, I would definitely try to get the original, public domain 1920s copies.
 
Actually the Hardy Boys have already been subject to edits. (Wasn't it this thread someone posted about this?)

Anyway, if you want to, you can find some deep dives into the different iterations of them. If you want to get any, I would definitely try to get the original, public domain 1920s copies.
I have a set of the applegate reprints of the originals from the 20s somewhere. I'm not that interested in acquiring more YA fiction but I have so many of these fucking early-mid 20th century boys series books that my childhood library in my room was just a "best of" list of the stratemeyer syndicate's offerings from 1910-1975.
 
I have a set of the applegate reprints of the originals from the 20s somewhere. I'm not that interested in acquiring more YA fiction but I have so many of these fucking early-mid 20th century boys series books that my childhood library in my room was just a "best of" list of the stratemeyer syndicate's offerings from 1910-1975.
Nice. I could also recommend John C Wright's Moth & Cobweb series, though it's going to be a bit like Narnia in the religious tones & themes.
 
Nice. I could also recommend John C Wright's Moth & Cobweb series, though it's going to be a bit like Narnia in the religious tones & themes.
I'm also recalling that there's plenty of good fantasy for YA demographics. The Prydain Black Cauldron stuff seems to be kept in memory due to the film. There's also the Wrinkle in Time, Earthsea, Andre Norton's work, and whatnot.

I'd probably also throw in Heinlein/Asimov juveniles as those are very much "cleaned" up without sex or extreme violence. What else do we have? I recall that Lester del Rey had extensive amounts of YA fiction that was very fantasy/sci fi oriented. L. Sprague de Camp did a lot of appropriate for YA crowd stuff too. (Essentially a lotta the 30s-50s genre fiction writers for scifi and fantasy did, it seems)
 
If I want to get in touch with my emotions and figure those out, I'll read The Old Man and the Sea again.
Ernest Hemingway was a closet AGP who used to pretend to be a woman called Catherine in bed and make his second wife pretend to be a 'boy' called Peter who would, in his own words, fuck him. Not sure how. He based his novel the Garden of Eden on this, which was never released during his life time, but was started in 1946 and written alongside a lot of his major works including Old Man and the Sea. He then literally 41% himself by shooting himself in the head, and it was published after his death. Also one of his kids transitioned, mtf too.


Narnia Susan is literally the archetypal bow and arrow female YA character btw, she's where all the others come from.

Also the yaoification of Moby Dick is from Ishmael and Queequeg sharing a bed, and also some kind of scene where Ishmael really enjoying collecting the sperm of a sperm whale with his hands.
 
Ernest Hemingway was a closet AGP who used to pretend to be a woman called Catherine in bed and make his second wife pretend to be a 'boy' called Peter who would, in his own words, fuck him. Not sure how. He based his novel the Garden of Eden on this, which was never released during his life time, but was started in 1946 and written alongside a lot of his major works including Old Man and the Sea. He then literally 41% himself by shooting himself in the head, and it was published after his death. Also one of his kids transitioned, mtf too.


Narnia Susan is literally the archetypal bow and arrow female YA character btw, she's where all the others come from.

Also the yaoification of Moby Dick is from Ishmael and Queequeg sharing a bed, and also some kind of scene where Ishmael really enjoying collecting the sperm of a sperm whale with his hands.
At this point I'm convinced that every creative has an Islamic side to them.
 
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