The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

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It's not so much that X is so elegant and lightweight, it's more like that software in general got even worse.
I would say things mostly got better. If you use View() on a data frame or tibble in the default R console or radian like me refusing to just use RStudio you will see a butt-fucking-ugly bare bones graphical interface from the late 80s or early 90s without anti-aliasing and very few functional or aesthetic considerations. I think once somebody compared writing software for the X Window System directly to building a bookshelf out of mashed potatoes. I tried doing that but didn't get far. On the other hand, though this was years ago, I have made graphical interfaces with GTK and Qt and it was relatively easy even if it isn't my thing. So I'm guessing for the most part one's experience with coding for the X Window System has improved drastically but it's a giant with feet of clay which is something that will eventually rise to the surface ESPECIALLY if you want games to run cross-platform.
 
Since we are talking about display protocols and the state of modern Linux desktops again, I figured I would share with you all that I'm experimenting with Windowmaker (and later, Afterstep) and liking it a lot so far... With strings attached. There is a catch.

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Being based off of Nextstep, it's designed like a pseudo-DE: it's a plain and simple window manager at it's core, but it comes with the functionalities of a taskbar, and plugin support in the form of "dockapps". Most of these dockapps are ancient and not maintained very well, but if you manage to get them working, they can be extremely cool. I like this idea way more than simple tray icons (theres a dockapp to add those too, which you will probably need). You're going to want a few of these as they add lots of crucial functionality that you normally only get with a full DE. wmclock and wmtray are probably the most important.

Really, my only criticisms of this design are that:
A. You can't make the dock icons skinny like the KDE/Windows taskbar, which is specifically designed to reduce wasted space while being easy to click on without much precision. They can only be squares, and making these smaller than 64px sq. will fucking destroy most dockapps. So you either make the buttons huge or they will be busted in some way. Not a huge deal on a 1440p monitor, but on all my other computers, yeah that really stinks.
B. Organizing the dock icons is a little painful, a lot of things will require manual configuration, but really once you get the hang of it it makes a lot of sense. The only thing I don't like is that WM likes to hold onto icons for apps that are technically not open anymore, and keep duplicates (one for the process and one for every actual window) with no way to turn it off. You also can't set the default dock position to the bottom left without the WM fighting to put it in a separate column. I'm sure Afterstep has a fix for this, but not Windowmaker. No getting rid of the workspace switcher either. Not as elegant as a plain WM like Openbox. My workaround was to create a Drawer icon and "auto-attract" icons to it, which puts anything that isn't a minimized window away and out of sight. But then sometimes it gets mad because it's too dumb to figure out which program is which and wants you to tell it what command you tucked away.
C. Snapping to the edges of multi-monitor setups sometimes doesn't work, and windows appearing off-screen happens embarassingly often
D. There's no built-in way to see the user's programs list from ~/.local/, so moving your programs to the applications menu manually can be tedious on your first week.
E. Probably some other minor annoyances. Like the run box and a few others being sloppy.

But on the other hand, there's none of the KDE jank I frequently ran into when using Trinity. It's just as lightweight, if not more. Once you know how to tame it, it doesn't get in your way and it just kinda works. The theming system is incredible (see attachment) and in Afterstep it's even better. The Afterstep website even does a little party trick in this regard.

I'll keep using it for a bit and see if it's for me. I think the problems it has are things I can certainly tolerate.
 
If you use an AMD GPU does Fedora, Arch, and Debian run the drivers out of the box, like no command required? Or do you still need to install it via the command. I don't know that much about AMD GPU on Linux.
The most common graphic driver is mesa. Debian and Fedora will come with it out of the box. Arch will tell you to install it. You only really need to install amd drivers if you go the proprietary route if for whatever reason you really need amf, their own official encoding framework, which isn't that much better than vaapi or gstreamer, or official rocm support, but i've used rocm on mesa for years at this point just fine.
 
It's good we're having this discussion again. Anything that shows people that the freedesktop cabal can be told to fuck off is a good thing.

Ranking of awesome outcomes:
1. Arcan is used. Not exactly likely lol, since the dev might have the left-handed, insanely high IQ, hard to understand stereotype down to a T. But I did some diving into that shit and yeah, seems to be a much better way of doing graphics than either X or Wayland.
2. Valve just forks Wayland, or even makes their own display server that others can rely upon, like an X12.
3. Frog protocols becomes the standard, making Wayland bad, but less bad. Maybe on par with X.
 
It's good we're having this discussion again. Anything that shows people that the freedesktop cabal can be told to fuck off is a good thing.

Ranking of awesome outcomes:
1. Arcan is used. Not exactly likely lol, since the dev might have the left-handed, insanely high IQ, hard to understand stereotype down to a T. But I did some diving into that shit and yeah, seems to be a much better way of doing graphics than either X or Wayland.
2. Valve just forks Wayland, or even makes their own display server that others can rely upon, like an X12.
3. Frog protocols becomes the standard, making Wayland bad, but less bad. Maybe on par with X.
Arcan sounds vaguely like the concept I've described in the past in this thread, but more sophisticated and thought out by people who know what they're doing. I'm looking forward to it's development.
 
Don't worry about the length of your post as it was very informative and for the longest time I was wondering what the big deal with Neovim is. Again for inertia reasons (like with using Mint) I will currently be sticking with regular Vim but in the future it is entirely possible that I will install Neovim on a fresh install when I don't have anything to lose and see whether configuring Neovim to do what I like is more straightforward. (The other thing I need to do is install plugins and then actually use them.)
I mean, you could just install it now. And go to the nvchad or lazyvim github pages and follow what they say (its basically just doing a git clone and at most one more command) then see what you think with just the default configs they give. You literally wouldnt loose anything by doing so. Especially since you are using normal vim anyway.

That would be hilarious, especially if it gets mass adopted and becomes the default compositor for Linux Mint.

Honestly I expect people to get sick of the Wayland Dev's bullshit and either fork Wayland or start back porting it's features to X11
At this point, I would love to see linux completely disregard gaming. I hate how whiney gamers are about everything. As much as I would love to see windows loose users, and linux gain them. At what cost?

Not that it would ever happen but it would be hilarious to me, if devs stopped working on any kind of support for gaming. And devoted time to getting music, and video editing to apple/windows levels.
 
At this point, I would love to see linux completely disregard gaming.
gaming is something you can't ignore. steve jobs (yes that idiotic faggot) infamously hated games full stop. he said they were a waste of time. but they were a massive part of early ios adoption (for better or worse) and without them ios may not have succeeded the way that it did.

gaming is big, bigger then fucking Hollywood, ignoring it would be like putting your head in the sand and constantly shouting "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA" over and over.
one of the biggest show stoppers for linux adoption has always been gaming compatibility. i still remember the days where proton didn't exist and getting games to launch was often difficult, let alone having them work consistently without severe performance problems, glitches or crashes.
you may not like it, but it's crucial that gaming has support in linux.
 
At this point, I would love to see linux completely disregard gaming. I hate how whiney gamers are about everything. As much as I would love to see windows loose users, and linux gain them. At what cost?
Gatekeeping only serves to ensure developers don't gain interest in our platform. Having bumbing morons figure out Linux will prove that it's a viable alternative to Windows and keep things competitive and fair to users. Plus it helps point out the obvious fuckups modern Linux seems to be riddled with (and i'm sure GNOME will find plenty of ways to make it worse). But people are becoming more aware, and I would rather some people be willing to try something new than they all just denounce us as a bunch of worthless nerds and feed the Satya Nadella demon. Knowing the collective decline in tech literacy that gen Z and gen A have suffered, it's a miracle we're getting people to switch to Linux at all at the time we are now, and we need to really work with what we have or we may never get another shot. There's a spark of hope in the new users whether you think they're stupid or not, they took the time to try something risky and they should be praised for that.

And devoted time to getting music, and video editing to apple/windows levels.
This is mostly the fault of the developers who make those applications (as is with gaming). The reason prioritizing creative applications, for the minority to whom the open source alternatives won't suffice, is a bad idea is because gaming is a significantly more accessible and more popular activity and it's really the #1 thing that will sell. You can always replace your modtracker, your linear video editor, your notes app, your DAW. They all work slightly differently but they do the same thing. Most hobbyists will probably be fine switching to a different program if they're willing to switch to Linux already, video games are a different story because video games themselves are an art form and difficult to substitute. You can't really "replace" a video game with an alternative, unless it's a really old game with liberated source code like the Quake series which has been cloned to fucking death.
 
At this point, I would love to see linux completely disregard gaming. I hate how whiney gamers are about everything. As much as I would love to see windows loose users, and linux gain them. At what cost?

Not that it would ever happen but it would be hilarious to me, if devs stopped working on any kind of support for gaming. And devoted time to getting music, and video editing to apple/windows levels
Wish granted.
Now consumer video cards are poorly supported because there's little incentive to, causing media editing software to decline as only professional users can afford the workstation GPUs, meaning that Linux is not used outside of large corporations who write their own code, and now the Apple Xserve makes a comeback because it now runs docker.
 
There's even an entire chapter devoted to the X Window System in the aforementioned Unix Haters' Handbook.
Yeah I am aware of the Unix Haters' Handbook chapter about the X Window System and the fact that a windowing system from 1984 works better than the supposed "replacement" (16 years and still counting) is impressive.
 
gaming is something you can't ignore. steve jobs (yes that idiotic faggot) infamously hated games full stop. he said they were a waste of time. but they were a massive part of early ios adoption (for better or worse) and without them ios may not have succeeded the way that it did.

gaming is big, bigger then fucking Hollywood, ignoring it would be like putting your head in the sand and constantly shouting "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALALALA" over and over.
one of the biggest show stoppers for linux adoption has always been gaming compatibility. i still remember the days where proton didn't exist and getting games to launch was often difficult, let alone having them work consistently without severe performance problems, glitches or crashes.
you may not like it, but it's crucial that gaming has support in linux.
Gaming is also an area of the market where Linux also has a clear niche. As important as it is to get something like Video Editing working, I don't see alot of videographers who have an interest in switching. Many gamers don't care for Windows that much and alot of devs game on the side.

Windows is also very tied to its traditional desktop experience and this makes it clunky when connected to a TV. It works fine but you're still pulling out a keyboard when you want to be using a controller. The Steam Deck shows that a proper console like experience is possible on Linux, which would be pretty normie friendly.
 
Windows is also very tied to its traditional desktop experience and this makes it clunky when connected to a TV. It works fine but you're still pulling out a keyboard when you want to be using a controller. The Steam Deck shows that a proper console like experience is possible on Linux, which would be pretty normie friendly.
One possible niche use case is for a kiosk application. On Linux it's easy to create an ad-hoc user for that, launch Xorg and run a full screen application without a window manager.
 
One possible niche use case is for a kiosk application. On Linux it's easy to create an ad-hoc user for that, launch Xorg and run a full screen application without a window manager.
Reminds me of when I saw a computer running Linux at Lowe's or some other hardware store back when I was in middle or high school. Pressed Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to see if I could do anything with it and X didn't restart like it should. I then got the hell out of there. Also if you've ever seen a Megatouch machine at a bar booting I'm fairly certain the console messages are from Red Hat or a derivative.
 
Reminds me of when I saw a computer running Linux at Lowe's or some other hardware store back when I was in middle or high school. Pressed Ctrl+Alt+Backspace to see if I could do anything with it and X didn't restart like it should. I then got the hell out of there. Also if you've ever seen a Megatouch machine at a bar booting I'm fairly certain the console messages are from Red Hat or a derivative.
One possible niche use case is for a kiosk application. On Linux it's easy to create an ad-hoc user for that, launch Xorg and run a full screen application without a window manager.
There are tens(hundreds?) of thousands of Raspberry Pis out there doing digital signage. Almost all pre-Wayland.
 
While games were somewhat of a factor for what kept me from making Manjaro the daily driver for a while, it generally wasn't too hard to get most of them working, and there were just a few holdouts that I got working by using Lutris, Wine, and using cracked executables that didn't depend on Anti-cheat shit that didn't play nicely with Wine. All my games work fine on Linux these days, but I do agree with the sentiment that gaming compatibility is what seems to keep people from permanently switching from Windows even now due to reading comments on various videos about Linux - it's always gaming, but it's really easy these days to get them working if you're willing to use Steam/Proton. Perhaps once they figure that out more people will switch. I think it's likely ingrained these days that gaming still doesn't work well because, well, it didn't for a long time.

But the main thing that kept me from switching for a long time was all the music production plugins I used for my DAW. I used EastWest plugins for the longest time, and their software wouldn't run on Linux at all, nor would the iLok DRM tool that they required. Eventually with improvements to Wine over time, iLok's tool actually worked, and EastWest's plugins technically did work, but they were extremely laggy, and borderline unusable. I eventually gave up after years of waiting, and decided to go with another solution for plugins, and to stop paying EastWest every month.

I love Manjaro, mostly because I'm not really a fan of Debian, and I'm too stupid to learn actual Arch. Reaper is great for a DAW, and Davinci Resolve Studio works competently for me as a video editor. With the direction Microsoft is taking Windows 11 going forward, I don't see any possibility of me ever going back to their platform. It does suck having to be a tech support contact for Windows users though, so I do still have to keep a VM of Windows around so I at least know how to support it.
 
.steve jobs (yes that idiotic faggot) infamously hated games full stop. he said they were a waste of time.
At least he was right about one thing.

Yeah. I know gaming is a big deal to people, and its something that will help linux once linux works just as well for gaming as windows does. I never said that wasn't the case.

I just find gamers insufferable as a whole. I do believe its a massive time sink, that people use to distract themselves from actually doing things to improve theirs lives. Its an easy dopamine hit just like many other vices, and that fact is reflected in the actions gamers take when they don't get exactly what they want.

The fact that gaming is such a big deal in modern society is pretty sad to me really. Its just one more opiate to wash away the reality of peoples miserable life, and get lost in.
 
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