Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Wasn't Palps preparing the galaxy for the Vong?

Only as an EU retcon.

 

[Illuminati Order Official]

Also think for a minute-Darth Bane's Rule of Two disagrees with the idea of there being a Sith Order in the thousands or millions. So from that POV, it was good that the Jedi wiped out the Sith Order of the past, since it's a corruption of Sith teachings, and they became just like the very same Jedi they despised.

Personally I think the Rule of Two was an awful idea and it's a miracle it worked for so long. What if both Sith die in a starship crash? What if the apprentice challenge their master and they both are mortally wounded in the duel? What if a newly appointed master dies before taking an apprentice? What if a weak and untrained apprentice kills the master using a trick? There are countless ways it can fail.
Even Darth Krayt's One Sith was a better idea - one Sith and a bunch of trained loyal drones; if another true Sith (Wyyrlok) arises among them, they fight to death for supremacy.

Wasn't Palps preparing the galaxy for the Vong?

It was implied in Outbound Flight.

 

[Midwit]

Although for my ten cents, destroying the Jedi and the Republic was completely unnecessary. It would've been more profitable and sustainable to have the Republic slowly become an Empire while stacking the Jedi High Council with Jedi knights who are amenable to Sith teachings, the way Revan corrupted the Jedi during the Mandalorian Wars. Palpatine had full control of the Clone Wars; he should've let it go on until most Jedi became more warlike, and started thinking like the Sith, believing that the ends justified the means when it comes to making a safe and secure galaxy.

Then once he has enough Jedi in his pocket outside of Anakin, Palpatine could have the war wind down using his patsies from both sides, and to prevent such a conflict from rising again, Palpatine can propose a new Imperial state with the support of the Senate, the Separatists, and sympathetic Jedi Masters and their students; the Jedi who resist them will be outnumbered, and at best, they can be expelled from power and retired to some dumb farmworld where all they do is plant crops all day. And if push comes to shove, if those Jedi continue to resist, the Clone Army, the CIS droids, and Palpatine's Jedi minions can eradicate them. Then Palps would have an Empire that has Jedi enforcers at the helm, Jedi who can be amenable to Sith teachings and wouldn't mind taking orders from a more powerful Force sensitive like Sidious if he can give them more power and knowledge, as well as a stable government that actually fucking works.

That assumes that Palpatine was truly planning everything from the start and not just constantly scrambling to adapt to whatever the galaxy decided to throw at him, he didn't plan on loosing Maul in favour of Dooku but rather that the circumstances around Maul's death left Dooku open to recruitment and he took the chance. Everything Palpatine did was by the seat of his pants and if somebody figured out what was happening only a sooner he would have been killed then and there, and his first death came about because he gambled with Anakin's loyalty and lost, as it very easily could have in his office should Anakin not have forseen Padme's death.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

That assumes that Palpatine was truly planning everything from the start and not just constantly scrambling to adapt to whatever the galaxy decided to throw at him, he didn't plan on loosing Maul in favour of Dooku but rather that the circumstances around Maul's death left Dooku open to recruitment and he took the chance. Everything Palpatine did was by the seat of his pants and if somebody figured out what was happening only a sooner he would have been killed then and there, and his first death came about because he gambled with Anakin's loyalty and lost, as it very easily could have in his office should Anakin not have forseen Padme's death.

Maul was always a pawn, nothing more. The only person Sidious had loyalty towards was Anakin, and that died after Mustafar. Also, Anakin had his own set of politics where he was disappointed with how the Republic ran and was in favor of a more centralized system; not to mention the fact that the Jedi leadership snubbed him and treated him less like a respected member and more like a disobedient child; so even if you removed Padme, Palpatine would have a lot to work with when it comes to Anakin, from being the father-figure that Obi-Wan was not, to having similar political goals and ideas as Anakin.

Personally I think the Rule of Two was an awful idea and it's a miracle it worked for so long. What if both Sith die in a starship crash? What if the apprentice challenge their master and they both are mortally wounded in the duel? What if a newly appointed master dies before taking an apprentice? What if a weak and untrained apprentice kills the master using a trick? There are countless ways it can fail.

It was a good idea when the Sith were in hiding; less numbers attracts less Jedi attention, which means less people coming after you. But once the Empire was declared and the Sith came out in the open, then it should've been torn to shreds. Hence why I believe Palpatine should've tried to recruit as many Jedi as he could during the Clone Wars; so that once the Empire comes out in the open and a new Sith Order is declared, Sheev would have thousands of applicable candidates who can help enforce Imperial rule. Imagine how fucked the Rebels would be if each Moff or local governor had a Sith hanging around who can ''restore order'' when the local Imperial forces aren't enough for the job.

The Rebels can barely handle a Dark Jedi; imagine fully-trained Sith being deployed against them by the thousands. They would get crushed for sure. The Sith can use the Force to win ground battles, and in space, their enhanced reflexes thanks to the Force would make them instant fighter aces that would put Amuro Ray to shame. They'd have no problems tearing through the Rebel Fleet, saving the Empire time and money when it comes to deploying naval assets. Imagine, instead of throwing a million TIEs at the enemy, they just deploy a few advanced TIE models with Sith at the controls, wrecking the shit out of entire fleets like Vader was doing in SW: Rebels.

Even Darth Krayt's One Sith was a better idea - one Sith and a bunch of trained loyal drones; if another true Sith (Wyyrlok) arises among them, they fight to death for supremacy.

My favorite Sith Order would be the Sith Empire; it tied the Sith to the land and made them responsible for the Empire's upkeep, while ensuring that millions of Sith will be there. That way, it'd be like the Persian Immortals; kill one Sith, and another takes his place. Killing the Dark Lord of the Sith or the Sith Emperor won't do shit; some other young gun will either claw through the ranks or get voted in by the Dark Council to become the next ruler. Like how Marka Ragnos died and the Sith thought the Republic were invading them, so they crowned Naga Sadow and went to war. Then when that went bonkers, they crowned Vitiate and rebuilt their Empire someplace else.

The Sith Empire was far more durable and effective. Even at the cost of infighting, eventually someone will unite the Sith Order and Empire once the infighting produces someone strong enough to win, and they'd be very well-equipped to wage a war against outside powers.

It was implied in Outbound Flight.

Only as an EU retcon.

It makes perfect sense. Palpatine making himself Emperor made him the target of every ambitious asshole and anarchist scum who hated the world. He'd have been better off as a manipulator from the sidelines, letting whoever had official power rule while he controlled them from behind. Less chance of him being put in danger, while giving him more time to research the Dark Side. But with the Vong hanging over the galaxy as a future threat, it made perfect sense that Palpatine would need to organize the galaxy as a public figure against them.

 

[Gorton Colu]

Palpatine did have Inquisitors, Prophets of the Dark Side, Emperor's Hands, Imperial Sovereign Protectors, and Darkside Elite.

Bane instituted The Rule of Two because of the disfunction of the Brotherhood of Darkness with Kaan having to politic and tard wrangle every Sith Lord with delusions of grandeur.

Look at what Krayt got for having a bunch of Sith Lords.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Palpatine did have Inquisitors, Prophets of the Dark Side, Emperor's Hands, Imperial Sovereign Protectors, and Darkside Elite.

Exactly. Which meant his hatred of the Jedi was political; if a Jedi bent the knee to him, he was more than OK to have them on as Emperor's Hands, Shadow Guards, or Inquisitors.

Bane instituted The Rule of Two because of the disfunction of the Brotherhood of Darkness with Kaan having to politic and tard wrangle every Sith Lord with delusions of grandeur.

Look at what Krayt got for having a bunch of Sith Lords.

I agree, but as a counterpoint, look how easy it is to kill the Bane Order. Literally the only reason they didn't get slaughtered by Jedi is Order 66. After that, Luke converted Vader to the Light, and Vader killed Sidious.

One conversion destroyed the entire Order. At least with the Sith Empire, it survived one way or another for eons.

 

[Gorton Colu]

I agree, but as a counterpoint, look how easy it is to kill the Bane Order. Literally the only reason they didn't get slaughtered by Jedi is Order 66. After that, Luke converted Vader to the Light, and Vader killed Sidious.

One conversion destroyed the entire Order. At least with the Sith Empire, it survived one way or another for eons.

True, but it did survive for one millenia. I think iterations are natural. In fact it's far more rare and bizarre that thr Jedi Order lasted almost unchanged and with near perfect continuity with only two squeezes happening during the Dark Wars and Order 66.

I think it could be argued that Bane's order was an unbroken continuation of earlier Sith organizations. And with Operation Shadow Hand bringing Sidious back, I would say that it didn't truly fail until Cadeus/Jacen was killed since Lumiya was an acolyte of Sidious.

Krayt was a revival with no direct connection if I remember right.

 

[Mystery Spy]

A lot of people complain on the politics on the prequels, but I don't think it was that they used politics so much as Lucas did a poor job on making people invested in them.

Yes, later on expanded material, like novels, have somewhat fixed the issue. In other words, an evil empire is easy to understand, but a separatist faction that has disputes due to taxes and trade issues is a tougher sell. It would have helped if the republic's corruption issues were more explicit to make the conflict more nuanced. But on the surface it just seemed like evil greedy merchants using robots for profit vs good and pure republic.

 

[Space Police]

A lot of people complain on the politics on the prequels, but I don't think it was that they used politics so much as Lucas did a poor job on making people invested in them.

I enjoyed the prequels' politics, and I understood them fairly well from the movies. I don't think making the conflict more nuanced would have won the masses over; people would have just complained even more about too much talking and not enough action/romance.

 

[Mystery Spy]

I enjoyed the prequels' politics, and I understood them fairly well from the movies. I don't think making the conflict more nuanced would have won the masses over; people would have just complained even more about too much talking and not enough action/romance.

I think most of us understood them, but that's not the issue. I just think Lucas didn't do a good job making them compelling enough. Like I said before, rebels versus evil empire is easy to be invested. Fights over trade routes and taxes requires more work for people to care.

I am not even opposed on Star Wars doing politics, just that he shouldn't have assumed people would instantly care without any leg work. That doesn't require that much talking. Just maybe showing why some planets were hurt by taxes, and the republic's corruption would have improved the story.

This thread has a lot of of hardcore Star Wars fans that obviously care enough about Star Wars to be invested. But normies certainly weren't.

 

[BullfrogBill]

On the rule of two thing, I leave you with this


'nuff said

 

[LovisXVI]

Krayt was a revival with no direct connection if I remember right.

Depends if you would consider holocrons to count, since XoXaan's instructed Krayt.

 

[Gorton Colu]

On the rule of two thing, I leave you with this

View attachment 6516148
'nuff said

I always thought it hilarious that Nihilis is just incomprehensible. Andeddu just wanted to troll and Bane was petty sore loser.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

I think most of us understood them, but that's not the issue. I just think Lucas didn't do a good job making them compelling enough. Like I said before, rebels versus evil empire is easy to be invested. Fights over trade routes and taxes requires more work for people to care.

I am not even opposed on Star Wars doing politics, just that he shouldn't have assumed people would instantly care without any leg work. That doesn't require that much talking. Just maybe showing why some planets were hurt by taxes, and the republic's corruption would have improved the story.

This thread has a lot of of hardcore Star Wars fans that obviously care enough about Star Wars to be invested. But normies certainly weren't.

"The courts take longer than the Senate."

-Padme Amidala

Amidala in TPM functioned as that normie person getting annoyed at Senate procedures and concluded that the legal way of doing things was a massive waste of time. It's easy to forget it because while it's supposed to be the A plot, it got shoved into B plot status with the whole podrace in Act 2. Short of just rewriting the whole movie, the Podrace sequence should be the first act starting with the Naboo ship limping to Tatooine. Then when they leave, that's when the space politics kicks in.

 

[Mystery Spy]

"The courts take longer than the Senate."

-Padme Amidala

Amidala in TPM functioned as that normie person getting annoyed at Senate procedures and concluded that the legal way of doing things was a massive waste of time. It's easy to forget it because while it's supposed to be the A plot, it got shoved into B plot status with the whole podrace in Act 2. Short of just rewriting the whole movie, the Podrace sequence should be the first act starting with the Naboo ship limping to Tatooine. Then when they leave, that's when the space politics kicks in.

The issue I am pointing is that Lucas didn't make politics compelling enough to normies, not that we didn't have an audience surrogate character like Padme.

My point is that about zero people, that weren't already hardcore Star Fans, care about the separatists and trade federation politics beyond them being the bad guys that use those evil robots to fight the good guys. Or the Senate's corruption for that matter. Expanded material fixed this, but the prequels as released didn't.

Still I would take George Lucas at his worst over Disney Wars anyday. So I can't complain too much.

 

[Grave Ghost]

My point is that about zero people, that weren't already hardcore Star Fans, care about the separatists and trade federation politics beyond them being the bad guys that use the evil robots to fight the good guys. Or the Senate's corruption for that matter. Expanded material fixed this, but the prequels as released didn't.

I think having Nemodian troopers instead of droids would have helped a bit or even just showing the Battle Droids and the Trade Federation committing atrocities against the people of Naboo to make Vallorum's cowardice seem worse.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

It makes perfect sense. Palpatine making himself Emperor made him the target of every ambitious asshole and anarchist scum who hated the world. He'd have been better off as a manipulator from the sidelines, letting whoever had official power rule while he controlled them from behind. Less chance of him being put in danger, while giving him more time to research the Dark Side. But with the Vong hanging over the galaxy as a future threat, it made perfect sense that Palpatine would need to organize the galaxy as a public figure against them.

Even if he knew the true threat of the Vong, he wouldn’t worry about the safety of the galaxy. The war with the Vong would be fuel for the Dark Side due to the immense amount of suffering.

I also believe that the Empire would not be as effective against the Vong as people may think. Nom Anor would compromise untold numbers of Moffs. The Empire would be weakened by an internal war before the Vong announced their presence. None of Palpatine’s Jedaii would sense the Vong and many in their blind arrogance would be prey for Vong warriors.

Unless Palpatine could build enough superweapons (without accessible weak points), the Empire would lose to the Vong.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

True, but it did survive for one millenia. I think iterations are natural. In fact it's far more rare and bizarre that thr Jedi Order lasted almost unchanged and with near perfect continuity with only two squeezes happening during the Dark Wars and Order 66.

The Jedi Order survived longer because of their peaceful nature making them more stable, not to mention government support for 25K years goes a long way to keeping your order alive.

I think it could be argued that Bane's order was an unbroken continuation of earlier Sith organizations. And with Operation Shadow Hand bringing Sidious back, I would say that it didn't truly fail until Cadeus/Jacen was killed since Lumiya was an acolyte of Sidious.

I disagree. The Sith Order died with Dark Empire Palpatine going kaput; he was the last true Sith; everyone else was but a pretender. Not actually ordained by a member of the Rule of Two Sith, just someone pretending to be a Sith Lord, like Lumiya and Carnor Jax.

Krayt was a revival with no direct connection if I remember right.

One millennia; meanwhile the Sith Empire survived in some form from 5000 BBY to 1000 BBY. That's four millennia.

Even if he knew the true threat of the Vong, he wouldn’t worry about the safety of the galaxy. The war with the Vong would be fuel for the Dark Side due to the immense amount of suffering.

He would, because taxes. Can't have an Empire if everyone is dead. Nobody to pay taxes or join the military.

I also believe that the Empire would not be as effective against the Vong as people may think. Nom Anor would compromise untold numbers of Moffs.

Er, no. The Moffs wouldn't listen to that punk; nor would they let him preach to the people-they'd just fucking kill him because most of them are fucking racist towards aliens, and some alien preaching against the Empire would garner their full attention as another Rebel rabble-rouser who needs to be put down. Vader, or some other Imperial tough guy, would kill Nom Anor before he got anywhere.

Hence why in the actual story, the Vong waited until the Empire was at its nadir before commencing with operations to destabilize the galaxy; it was more united and militarized, unlike the New Republic whose political systems invited discord and chaos. Not to mention they had less prejudice, so someone like Nom Anor had his rights protected by the NR's freedom of speech, whereas there are no such protections in the Empire.

The Empire would be weakened by an internal war before the Vong announced their presence. None of Palpatine’s Jedaii would sense the Vong and many in their blind arrogance would be prey for Vong warriors.

I disagree. Palpatine's visions would tell him ahead of time how to defeat the Vong, and with him alive, there would be no internal warfare. Not to mention that yes, some Force powers work on the Vong. The true leader of the Vong uses the Force to subtly mind-trick their leader into doing his will.

Also, the Empire mainly relies on technology, not Jedi warriors, the latter of whom exist merely to hunt renegade Jedi. Against the Vong warriors they'd deploy units like Hazard Troopers, Spacetroopers, and Dark Troopers, many of whom have firepower similar to the Yuuzhan Vong Hunter droids that Lando was selling.

Unless Palpatine could build enough superweapons (without accessible weak points), the Empire would lose to the Vong.

He doesn't need superweapons. A weak Empire and the battered remnants of the NR crushed the Vong so badly, the lattere exiled themselves. A full-powered Empire would eradicate them like they're nothing.

Dude, they literally had the New Republic act like idiots in the first half of the NJO novels just so that the Vong could be a threat. If someone like Crix Madine or Gial Ackbar ran the NR, the Vong advance would've been halted before they got to Coruscant; and they would've been pushed back just like how the True Sith were stopped at Bothawui and pushed back into the Outer Rim before the Sack of Coruscant.

All Palpatine would need to do is send in Thrawn with 5000 Star Destroyers and a million support ships. The war will be over in a week. Especially since the Vong's miniature black hole tech relies on organic defenses that can get tired if you fire too many projectiles at them, and the Imperial fleet can rapid fire low-power shots until the dovin basals grow tired, then once that happens, the fleet can fire high power shots to destroy the Vong ships. Combine that with Palpatine's battle meditation which would weaken the Vong since all their tech is organic, and the Vong are screwed.

As for the worldships, just have cloaked probes with baradium fission devices attach to them and detonate.

 

[Ghostse]

I think most of us understood them, but that's not the issue. I just think Lucas didn't do a good job making them compelling enough. Like I said before, rebels versus evil empire is easy to be invested. Fights over trade routes and taxes requires more work for people to care.

I am not even opposed on Star Wars doing politics, just that he shouldn't have assumed people would instantly care without any leg work. That doesn't require that much talking. Just maybe showing why some planets were hurt by taxes, and the republic's corruption would have improved the story.

This thread has a lot of of hardcore Star Wars fans that obviously care enough about Star Wars to be invested. But normies certainly weren't.

For me the issue is in the middle of a Star Wars film, and especially a film with as much going on as TPM, trying to get us to care about galactic politics in the middle of everything else would be nearly impossible. And I think part of the point Lucas was going for was to NOT be invested - we were to feel irritated and pissed off. Its a simple morality tale of good and evil for kids, we're just supposed to know bureaucracy bad.

Again, a problem you'd fix with a mini series aimed at adults.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Again, a problem you'd fix with a mini series aimed at adults.

You can have a TV series leading up to TPM, and TPM would be the Season 1 finale.