Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[King Metalia]

Man I had a shit ton of star wars toys back in the day. ahh memories.

I still have the Darth Vader figure I got as a Christmas gift at age 5. Man that was almost 20 years ago now that I think of it, where did the time go?

 

[Gorton Colu]

Virtually every film critic and fan rating aggregation site puts TPM on a significantly lower tier than the OT, and always has. The monomaniacal obsession with RLM is a sign of your internet addiction and bubbleification.

TPM's box office and entire existence are owed to the OT hype setting it up, which it immediately fumbled. The only saving grace is the prequel doesn't fumble things in such a way as they are unrecoverable, it took Disney (Yes, megacorporations are in fact responsible for their own actions you drooling retards) to do that.

Your butthurt is a little excessive now. Your aggregate ratings has The Force Awakens above A New Hope. So much for that argument being worth anything. You seem to not realize that the entirety of the marketing of TFA was that the sequels would be a return to the form of the OT. This came off the back of relentless articles and YouTube video essays criticizing the prequels for years for things already apparent in the OT. If you bothered to read the thread Disney gets deserved hate for their decisions, "mu poor widdle disney," and part of those was listening to numbskull manchildren.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Virtually every film critic and fan rating aggregation site puts TPM on a significantly lower tier than the OT, and always has. The monomaniacal obsession with RLM is a sign of your internet addiction and bubbleification.

And those same critics acted like TFA was unique and fresh, when it was a carbon-copy of ANH and had nothing new to contribute. Your point is invalid.

TPM's box office and entire existence are owed to the OT hype setting it up, which it immediately fumbled. The only saving grace is the prequels don't fumble things in such a way as they are unrecoverable, it took Disney (Yes, megacorporations are in fact responsible for their own actions you drooling retards) to do that.

False. A lot of people loved the CGI battles and the Darth Maul shit. In fact, at the time, critical reception was somewhat positive, and most fans were positive to it. RLM and the Prequel hate crowd came in later, after the initial hype for the movie died down.

It's great that a few little kids liked the prequels and made a meme culture out of it, but they sacrificed the broad appeal to play to the kiddies and that is why TPM was disliked. Luke was whiny as a young adult because he was being overprotected by family as part of a coming of age story in which he STOPPED being whiny because he grew up right there on screen. Anakin was whiny because he was a little kid who doesn't stop being a little kid during TPM and then grows up off screen. It was a mess, and it's only enjoyed by people looking back with childhood nostalgia glasses and manbabies who liked the fight scenes.

Anakin had more of a legit reason to be whiny. His life before the Jedi was living in a God-forsaken desert as a slave, the Jedi treated him like an attack dog instead of a brother, and at the end of the day, his only real friend was the future Emperor. Whom the Jedi asked him to betray and spy on. In comparison, Luke grew up in a middle-class comfortable home, he was basically landed gentry since his folks owned land and a farm, he was being set up for a prestigious flight school, not to mention the fact that the Rebels and Kenobi treated him with nothing but the utmost respect. Yoda was the only one to act like shit to him, and that didn't last long.

Also, there's nothing wrong with liking fight scenes. Some films are enjoyed because of them. Stop being so uppity.

RLM aren't fans lmao, never were.

They were Trek fans, and I guess they were still angry that despite the hate, the SW Prequels left more of a cultural footprint than anything Star Trek ever did.

Which is kind of funny, since Trek is even more pozzed than SW is now.

 

[Adamska]

I do genuinely think that this thread sometimes goes full Rattard whenever the Dolchstoßlegende by the Fans gets mentioned. It's ridiculous to put a majority of blame on the audience for the failings of a product, when factors like an unrestrained director, honest feedback being neglected early on during screenings and a refusal to reshoot, and the expectations set due to marketing and build up setting the bar too high all exist. All of these factors happened in spite of the audience, not because of it.

That last factor is one that is key to bring up too, since it's only after a while why I've softened my stance a decent bit on Phantom Menace, but still think that Attack isn't good and arguably bad. Time and honestly the failings of the current industry proving it could always be worse outs that. Also the PT has several of my favorite characters, though it sure as hell isn't due to the core films; the expanded works makes the PT shine as a near equal to the OT's own.

But audiences and critics do affect the production process; it's retarded to assume it doesn't. It mostly effects later products down the line, but even early results are important to note. A blatantly obvious example of an initial reaction affecting a later product actually came out this year. The sequel to Joker was legitimately was made to refute the audience the first one drew in, and that singlehandedly killed it due to how hateful it came off. An example of the latter, where the product itself changes is in Sonic and funnily enough the Last Jedi. The former completely redid character models simply due to backlash. And in dark irony, I do actually recall Ruin Johnson openly citing his concerns about RLM when he was making TLJ.

All I do know is that Star Wars is dead, gay, and full of faggots now. It ended with the EU's own ending...

 

[Rick The Stick]

>hmm what's up with the SW thread today
>Debating Imperator
>360 spin and leave

 

[Mr. 0]

A saving grace that new Star Wars content provides is keeping this thread from going around in circles (if only temporarily). This exact topic has happened multiple times and I found myself having deja vu again

 

[Hunter Hearst Helmsley]

And those same critics acted like TFA was unique and fresh, when it was a carbon-copy of ANH and had nothing new to contribute. Your point is invalid.

YOUR point is that the critics are responsible for what Disney and George Lucas do, not mine. Now that you are admitting it wasn't just RLM you can stop fanboy tard raging about them.

False. A lot of people loved the CGI battles and the Darth Maul shit. In fact, at the time, critical reception was somewhat positive, and most fans were positive to it. RLM and the Prequel hate crowd came in later, after the initial hype for the movie died down.

No, RLM was just articulating what the majority of critics and fans were already thinking and continue to think aside from the six year olds who just needed spinny lightsabers to get their jollies. To the extent the prequel era recovered, it was due to the animated series, books, and games which did a repair job on the whole mess. The RLM videos didn't gain traction because people are just naturally attuned to believing anything a weird serial killer character tells them like a brainwashing cult leader, they gained traction because they put into words what people already felt.

The battles were great for six year olds, it's why the whole thing worked so well as an animated series. But they were bloodless, goofy, and cartoony. You can whine about the ewoks all you want and make dumb false comparisons, but they fought the empire like the vietcong and a lot of them die brutal onscreen deaths, not to mention threatening to eat the main cast. Their cuteness momentarily conceals that they are SAVAGE, that is what makes them work. That is the kind of thing that made the OT work for a broad audience whereas the prequels only work for little kids and manbabies. The ability to simultaneously entertain adults and children is what Lucas was not able to reproduce in the prequels.

Anakin had more of a legit reason to be whiny.

Yes, he was like six. Of course he's whiny. That doesn't mean anybody wants to watch him whine for an entire movie.

 

[Gorton Colu]

No one said that all or a majority of the blame laid with prequel haters, but it's obvious that the sequels took their cues from the the ridiculous hate train on the prequels. Well, what we got was the EU decanonization and the sequels.

YOUR point is that the critics are responsible for what Disney and George Lucas do, not mine. Now that you are admitting it wasn't just RLM you can stop fanboy tard raging about them.

I knew you were a fanboy for RLM. "Not just RLM" indeed. They were used as an example of because of their Mr. Plinkett popularity and how easily their criticisms apply to the OT. You can stop defending their honor.

 

[Tablet County]

Marketing to kids? ROTJ and the Ewoks.

Return of the Jedi was roundly mocked for the Ewoks when the film came out, and to some degree it's still mocked for this reason. It's why a lot of people don't include RotJ in their list of good Star Wars films. I'm guessing that you, like me, were born after George's fascination with the little furry vietcong and don't have first-hand experience in this area.

Sloppy dialogue? Actors like Harrison Ford and Alec Guinness were not fans of the material they were made to work with. Alec had his character killed off because he thought Kenobi's sayings were worthless "mumbo-jumbo", and Ford was famous for saying "you can type this shit, George, but you sure as hell can't say it!"

To be fair to this point I can't think of a direct comparison, but I'm willing to bet there's a reason that The Empire Strikes Back is considered superior to the original. "You didn't notice it, but your brain did" and all that.

Whiny protagonists? Luke was whiny in the first two films.

I never thought I'd hear this as a talking point from someone who thinks the sequels suck ass. This is usually used as justification for why Rey isn't a shitty protagonist.

Politics and trade/commerce disputes? They talked a lot about the Imperial Senate only for it to be worthless once the Emperor fired them all, and there was even some cut scenes of Biggs trying to tempt Luke to join the Alliance because the Empire was nationalizing commerce in the core worlds. That practically drove a lot of people to join the Alliance.

No, fuck you. This isn't comparable at ALL. I like the Prequels, I even disagree with the popular assertion that Attack of the Clones is the worst film in the series prior to the sequels, and even I think the scenes of motherfuckers sitting in on fucking council meetings in TPM are excessive.
You're comparing apples and oranges because you can't accept the fact that a film that you like isn't that good, it's the same kind of bullshit that retards would say to justify why TLJ is actually genius and you're just too media illiterate to understand Rian's masterclass in writing.

 

[Gorton Colu]

No, fuck you. This isn't comparable at ALL. I like the Prequels, I even disagree with the popular assertion that Attack of the Clones is the worst film in the series prior to the sequels, and even I think the scenes of motherfuckers sitting in on fucking council meetings in TPM are excessive.
You're comparing apples and oranges because you can't accept the fact that a film that you like isn't that good, it's the same kind of bullshit that retards would say to justify why TLJ is actually genius and you're just too media illiterate to understand Rian's masterclass in writing.

Those scenes really didn't last that long and the details of the politics and economy were nonexistent. I can understand and sympathize with disliking those scenes, but they to call them excessive was always an exaggeration. There is an office scene, a senate scene, a council scene and its back to Naboo.

 

[Tablet County]

Those scenes really didn't last that long and the details of the politics and economy were nonexistent. I can understand and sympathize with disliking those scenes, but they to call them excessive was always an exaggeration. There is an office scene, a senate scene, a council scene and its back to Naboo.

That they sucked so much that they felt longer and more frequent than they really were might actually be worse.

 

[Gorton Colu]

That they sucked so much that they felt longer and more frequent than they really were might actually be worse.

The senate scene was a missed opportunity to have senators physically fighting each other over petty disagreements.

 

[Tablet County]

The senate scene was a missed opportunity to have senators physically fighting each other over petty disagreements.

Revenge of the Sith has Yoda and Creamy Sheev throwing down in the senate chamber which is as close as we're gonna get.

 

[Gorton Colu]

Revenge of the Sith has Yoda and Creamy Sheev throwing down in the senate chamber which is as close as we're gonna get.

Yeah, but that's just symbolism for the fight for the Republic. I'm talking real political fights like this list.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

No, fuck you. This isn't comparable at ALL. I like the Prequels, I even disagree with the popular assertion that Attack of the Clones is the worst film in the series prior to the sequels, and even I think the scenes of motherfuckers sitting in on fucking council meetings in TPM are excessive.

The only difference is that the Prequel political talks actually MATTERED, since Palpatine used them as his stepping stones to power, whereas the OT political talks about the Imperial Senate were worth shit because Tarkin walks in later and says that the Emperor disbanded the Senate and they don't need to worry about it anymore.

Which meant all that talk with Vader and his officers about the Senate potentially rallying to the Rebellion, and Leia using the Senate as a shield, was worthless. When they hear those lines about Vader, Leia, and the Senate, a new audience would start thinking about how the Empire will deal with the potential flak that would happen if word came out that they nabbed Leia, but it went nowhere because the Emperor got rid of the Senate problem.

Return of the Jedi was roundly mocked for the Ewoks when the film came out, and to some degree it's still mocked for this reason. It's why a lot of people don't include RotJ in their list of good Star Wars films. I'm guessing that you, like me, were born after George's fascination with the little furry vietcong and don't have first-hand experience in this area.

No shit. It was mocked back then, and it's still mocked now. Although the Ewoks were the least of the film's problems. The Imperial Fleet losing despite having the numbers advantage, Vader going from a magnificent bastard to a punching bag, the Ewoks were a tiny blip compared to those problems.

They literally had to invent Battle Meditation in the books just to explain away that shit.

To be fair to this point I can't think of a direct comparison, but I'm willing to bet there's a reason that The Empire Strikes Back is considered superior to the original. "You didn't notice it, but your brain did" and all that.

It was considered superior because it was willing to be dark and scary without being too dark and scary. It was the right amount of dark with some hope at the end of the tunnel, whereas the original film was the standard ''fairy tale in space'' sort of affair. Complete with an evil wizard and a castle.

I never thought I'd hear this as a talking point from someone who thinks the sequels suck ass. This is usually used as justification for why Rey isn't a shitty protagonist.

Actually, it is. The main problem with Rey is that she was considered too perfect, she had all the answers, and there was little that Luke or Kylo Ren could even offer to her. There was no personal struggle, she was just too perfect.

It's actually kind of funny that having a whiny protagonist was a plus on the side of the PT and OT and not the Sequels; the Sequels removed the whiny protagonist and replaced him with a perfect goddess, and people complained that she was too perfect.

No, RLM was just articulating what the majority of critics and fans were already thinking and continue to think aside from the six year olds who just needed spinny lightsabers to get their jollies. To the extent the prequel era recovered, it was due to the animated series, books, and games which did a repair job on the whole mess. The RLM videos didn't gain traction because people are just naturally attuned to believing anything a weird serial killer character tells them like a brainwashing cult leader, they gained traction because they put into words what people already felt.

No, they were just bullshit on top of bullshit which people bought into because the dude sounded funny. Even I bought into it for a while, then I decided to analyze the Prequel films myself, and realized that a lot of the plot criticisms and other criticisms were wrong.

For instance, RLM complained about the overuse of CGI and how they abandoned practical effects, but in reality, TPM used way more practical effects than ALL THREE OT FILMS COMBINED. You just didn't notice them because the CGI and the practical effects were impossible to tell from each other. But that actually is what good film-making does; practical and CGI effects blending to the point where they mix and it's impossible to tell them apart.

YOUR point is that the critics are responsible for what Disney and George Lucas do, not mine. Now that you are admitting it wasn't just RLM you can stop fanboy tard raging about them.

No shit. Lucas and Disney respond to the critics. Including RLM. Also, RLM recommended JJ Abrams, and Disney went and got JJ Abrams, and what we got from that was the mess that was TFA and ROS.

The battles were great for six year olds, it's why the whole thing worked so well as an animated series. But they were bloodless, goofy, and cartoony. You can whine about the ewoks all you want and make dumb false comparisons, but they fought the empire like the vietcong and a lot of them die brutal onscreen deaths, not to mention threatening to eat the main cast. Their cuteness momentarily conceals that they are SAVAGE, that is what makes them work. That is the kind of thing that made the OT work for a broad audience whereas the prequels only work for little kids and manbabies. The ability to simultaneously entertain adults and children is what Lucas was not able to reproduce in the prequels.

The only thing that was bloody was that one scene when Kenobi cut off that one alien's arm. Bloodless combat was a staple of the series all throughout the OT; hence why they used blasters which cauterized wounds instead of leaving blood and guts everywhere. Also, even the Ewoks died bloodless, clean deaths onscreen; no different from the Jedi getting shot during Order 66 and just falling down. If you call that brutal, then you're childish, because that was far from brutal. A few explosions go off and they fall down; that's not brutal at all.

There was even the fact that Kenobi's death at the hands of Darth Vader was far less brutal than Anakin's mutilation at the hands of Kenobi, or Qui-Gon's death at the hands of Darth Maul. The latter two, you get to see and feel the pain. Kenobi in EPIV, on the other hand, disappears like a ghost, no impact, no pain, no nothing.

The only OT lightsaber fight which ended brutally was ESB, with Luke's hand getting chopped off. Even ROTJ had Luke chop off Vader's hand, only to find that it was a machine hand and Vader could easily get it replaced again.

Leia gets shot in the arm, and all it does is paralyze her. Artoo gets shot TWICE, and the damn thing still works. Threepio gets shot and dismembered, but his chassis and head are intact so Chewie just boots him up again.

The fact that you thought OT combat was more savage and bloody than the PT goes to show that you don't remember it at all; you just have your own impression of it. Most of the people who died just got shot and fell over; which is the same thing in both trilogies.

All I do know is that Star Wars is dead, gay, and full of faggots now. It ended with the EU's own ending...

Which is thanks to Disney buying out the franchise, and deciding that their own authors can do a better job than the SWEU which killed Chewie.

And we all know how Disney managed to get their hands on the franchise. Here's a tip-it involved whiny manbabies crying about how Lucas raped their childhoods.

 

[Tablet County]

The only difference is that the Prequel political talks actually MATTERED, since Palpatine used them as his stepping stones to power, whereas the OT political talks about the Imperial Senate were worth shit because Tarkin walks in later and says that the Emperor disbanded the Senate and they don't need to worry about it anymore.

Which meant all that talk with Vader and his officers about the Senate potentially rallying to the Rebellion, and Leia using the Senate as a shield, was worthless.

That's not better. Having important plot points be included in some of the most mind-numbing scenes ever produced in filmmaking is worse than having throw-away worldbuilding lines only matter for worldbuilding.
Like, I agree that the complacency of the republic would've had to be shown for the sake of the story, but surely there are better ways to convey that?

The Imperial Fleet losing despite having the numbers advantage

Your other points are actually pretty decent, but you do realize that the numbers advantage isn't a surefire indicator of victory? History is littered with tales of larger forces being defeated by significantly smaller ones.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

That's not better. Having important plot points be included in some of the most mind-numbing scenes ever produced in filmmaking is worse than having throw-away worldbuilding lines only matter for worldbuilding.

That is better. Because they actually mattered. A person paying attention would see how Palpatine is using the political arena for his own advantage, whereas in the OT, it's best not to give a shit about the talk of the Imperial Senate at all given what's going to happen throughout the course of the film.

Your other points are actually pretty decent, but you do realize that the numbers advantage isn't a surefire indicator of victory? History is littered with tales of larger forces being defeated by significantly smaller ones.

Except this time, a larger force meant more firepower. In space. Where there is no cover or geography for a smaller force to use. And the eras of history when a smaller armies win, they usually were armies that still engaged in melee combat, or they used geography to hide behind while they took potshots at the enemy.

This time, they're all in space. Where the larger Imperial fleet can just point all their guns at the Rebel Fleet and open fire, and the Rebels would be done for.

 

[Hunter Hearst Helmsley]

For instance, RLM complained about the overuse of CGI and how they abandoned practical effects, but in reality, TPM used way more practical effects than ALL THREE OT FILMS COMBINED. You just didn't notice them because the CGI and the practical effects were impossible to tell from each other. But that actually is what good film-making does; practical and CGI effects blending to the point where they mix and it's impossible to tell them apart.

They blended together into everything looking CGI instead of looking REAL. That is NOT what you want.

No shit. Lucas and Disney respond to the critics. Including RLM. Also, RLM recommended JJ Abrams, and Disney went and got JJ Abrams, and what we got from that was the mess that was TFA and ROS.

If you respond to critics saying your movie is shit by making an even shittier movie, that is not the fault of the critics. When you are a megacorporation it is your responsibility to have movie making experts on your staff who determine the course of your films. You know how you know for sure RLM isn't responsible for the Disney movie content? Because Disney isn't paying them for writing, directing, or anything...because they didn't contribute anything.

The fact that you thought OT combat was more savage and bloody than the PT goes to show that you don't remember it at all; you just have your own impression of it.

You are reading bloodless too literally. You see ewoks on screen be crushed to death and mourned by their compatriots. They are cute to tug at your heartstrings and then you have to watch them die brutal deaths. This then makes the victory celebration have emotional power. The droid deaths are played for laughs and the clones are covered in dehumanizing masks.

The dead jedi extras are all portrayed largely as emotionally lobotomized scenery in the CGI dreamworld, their death has little emotional impact on anyone who hasn't had EU material bring them to life first.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

You are reading bloodless too literally. You see ewoks on screen be crushed to death and mourned by their compatriots. They are cute to tug at your heartstrings and then you have to watch them die brutal deaths. This then makes the victory celebration have emotional power. The droid deaths are played for laughs and the clones are covered in dehumanizing masks.

Those are not brutal deaths. They're rather clean, child-friendly. Explosions go off. They fall down. No different from the clones and Jedi who got shot in the Prequels. It's not something you need to shield the kids from seeing.

The Stormtroopers are also covered in dehumanizing masks. That doesn't make the action scenes against them bad.

The fact that you think their deaths were brutal goes to show how your idea of ''brutal'' is weak and soft. If that's your idea of brutal, then I recommend you avoid many R-rated action films where actual brutality and gore is explicitly shown.

If you respond to critics saying your movie is shit by making an even shittier movie, that is not the fault of the critics. When you are a megacorporation it is your responsibility to have movie making experts on your staff who determine the course of your films. You know how you know for sure RLM isn't responsible for the Disney movie content? Because Disney isn't paying them for writing, directing, or anything...because they didn't contribute anything.

The problem is, the critics' suggestions made even shittier movies. RLM said that JJ Abrams should make SW movies and they should make them in a way that apes the OT. We got TFA which is even worse than the PT because it has no substance and is just a hollow shell copying ANH. They got rid of the whiny protagonist and replaced him with a perfect goddess.

Literally, the suggestions of the critics on how to fix Star Wars made it worse. If the Prequels were bad, the ST is even worse, and the critics helped make it that way because the ST film-makers were responding to criticisms of the PT.

By the way, the critics praised the ST, TLJ included. Which goes to show their judgement is far from sound. They heap hate upon the Prequels, yet they praise movies worse than them.

It's like what I said before; Disney Star Wars is what the Prequel-haters deserve. Hell, the original phase of Disney Star Wars was just them trying to erase the ''taint'' of the Prequels and appealing to OT fans all the way through, hence why you got a soft reboot that apes ANH, and a direct prequel to ANH. So yes, they were genuinely trying to appeal to PT-haters who wanted Star Wars to go back to its roots. So yes, it is the Star Wars that is tailor-made for Prequel-haters. TFA and Rogue One are literally tailor-made to make you forget about the Prequels and just go for OT memberberries.

Critics whined about the politics, so they kept it simple, Empire vs. Rebels, First Order vs. Resistance. People whined about the whiny protagonist, so they replaced him with a perfect goddess. Even the clunky lightsaber combat of the ST was made in response to people saying that the PT lightsaber combat was over-choreographed and way too flashy. So they went back to basics and had kids smash lightsabers against each other like they're swinging baseball bats.

They blended together into everything looking CGI instead of looking REAL. That is NOT what you want.

They looked real enough to me for 90s films. The fact is, the CGI holds up to this day.

 

[Hunter Hearst Helmsley]

Those are not brutal deaths.

They are in comparison to the prequels where you have 1000 droid and clone deaths with all the brutality of breaking a toaster since the victims are not or do not display that they are actually living things.

The problem is, the critics' suggestions made even shittier movies.

No, DISNEY made even shittier movies. RLM didn't make any Star Wars sequels. If RLM tells Disney to go jump off a bridge, it's on Disney to decide if that is good or bad advice. RLM never told Disney to have Leia fly through space like Mary Poppins. They never told Disney to prioritize the lives of race horses over human slaves. Disney was going to fuck this up regardless of RLM just like Lucas fucked up prior to RLM.

Fans aren't responsible for what megacorporations do.

By the way, the critics praised the ST, TLJ included. Which goes to show their judgement is far from sound.

Literally everybody in the movie business knows critics are not an authority on anything. This is why I am so adamant that the idea that Disney was forced to do what they say makes you sound like a drooling retard.