Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Adamska]

Nimble 5e would be the least shit of the options, since PbtA genuinely is honest to god mechanically shit and will force you to baby even more of the system than with all that math that does the arbitration for you. It also treats the hobby like a shitty video game; damn near every version of it calls your actions "moves". Hate that. 5e in general made itself rules light by cutting shit out and still expecting you to just buck it up and manage it yourself, case in point hirelings and a lot of other shit, so if Nimble fixed some of the more egregious issues it'd probably work.

Honestly I'd suggest D6 fantasy if you really can't be fucked to try with math, since it's actually not too shabby. It's like West End, where it uses d6 pools so real easy. Swords and Six Siders is an OSR flavored variant that also doesn't look too shabby; looks like you might only need 1 d6.

You ain't gonna get as many nibbles since it isn't (BRAND), but like if you use Nimble they'd probably ditch anyway. That's how much of a pain in the ass it is to get those idiots to play something besides DnD 5e.

 

[The Ugly One]

I'd generally treat shit like that as the society they did it in would consider appropriate. So maybe if you went into a frontier town and started bar fights, killed random people, robbed the sheriff, etc. you might get away with this if you were a bunch of genuine badasses. But if you went into a city capital of an actual civilization and started shit with the town guard, pretty much all the powerful NPCs in charge of protecting that city would come at your ass immediately and if you weren't demigod-tier you'd be adorning a gibbet.

I'm talking about when you're in a dungeon, and there are some hobgoblins that offered to parlay, and you slaughter them all instead, well, later I'll let you know that the leader was going to tell you about a secret door leading to a cache of with a Ring of Protection and some other loot.

 

[Judge Dredd]

You ain't gonna get as many nibbles since it isn't (BRAND), but like if you use Nimble they'd probably ditch anyway. That's how much of a pain in the ass it is to get those idiots to play something besides DnD 5e.

This is a recurring problem, and why I'm not using a favourite like Savage Worlds. I'd play vanilla 5e but it's slow and cumbersome, so I'd likely homebrew away some rules myself. I was hoping that Nimble would be a near universal conversion, but it's not that. One red flag is that it seems to have been the flavour of the month when it was announced like every other 5e killer/"real 6e". Which might be another way for me to sell it. Unofficial 6e. Like you say, they might not go for that.

It's a problem because I can't think of what other [BRAND] games exist. There's DnD, Pathfinder, PbtA, and that's about it. Maybe CoC? Then there's settings like Strahd and Warhammer I can sell people on. I came across a game called Outgunned a while back, and despite interest, no one could agree on a time and interest fizzled out before I got it to the table.

if Nimble fixed some of the more egregious issues it'd probably work.

I've not got it to the table, but on paper it seems to be a big improvement. I'm a fan of the 3 action system. Innititive rolls are out, to-hit rolls are out (misses are baked into the damage roll), spell slots are out, attribute points are just a bonus. Some of these are changes I've considered in the past so it's a good fit for me as a DM. Monster stat blocks are greatly reduced. Gone are the long walls of text, and yet the single sentence abilities that replace them are way more flavorful. The fact there's codified horde/minion rules is great too.

I'm also a fan of the layout of things. Monsters are grouped by type (undead, bandits, forest creatures, etc). Magic schools are based on element, which is a bit of a simplification but the spell selection doesn't seem as broken as 5e.

As said, my worries are that it was YT flavour of the month Kickstarter bait, and the renaming of classes (some obvious 5e classes, some not).

 

[Ghostse]

PAGING SAVAGEWORLD FAGS, YOUR SERVICES ARE REQUESTED TO PITCH YOUR SYSTEM
Also that one guy who liked Cortex or w/e.

I'm putting serious thought into running 5e, or maybe PbtA.

Please consider suicide by self immolation as an alternative to these.

A quick internet search tells me Dungeon World is old and outdated, and has been surpassed by other PbtA systems that refine the system and add more character building. Supposedly Fantasy World is one example, but I don't know the rest. For a system that's supposedly free most stuff is paywalled. There's always piracy of course, but it's strange to see. There was supposedly going to be an official Dungeon World 2e, but the designer was cancelled? Are there any pbta games worth looking at?

Dungeon World is garbage. All PtbA games are garbage, though @Adamska said there was about a Deli or something one he sort of liked but even then it suffers from the same PtbA problem:
Basically all PtbA games are meant to be effectively one-session. There is almost no room for progression because everything is supposed to be an archetype.

PtbA is a pure narrative game by and for people who are too insecure about just wanting a narrative game. You don't need to their gay shit. Just have everyone start playing pretend and ever now and then roll 2d6 and if the result is 1-6 make them fail horribly at the theing they just described, 7-9 add a a dark negative to what they just did, and 10+ just let them keep talking. There, you now have your own custome PtbA variant. now go commit suicide by ritual disembowelment to remove the stain from your family's honor

I also gave Nimble 5e a read. I expected it to be a bunch of house rules to speed up 5e. That's what it was sold as. But from what I can tell it's a completely different game, since it changes core rules and thus everything else has to be changed to fit. It looks solid and there's a lot to like. The spells seem to be a massive improvement on 5es. The classes have been revamped. I don't understand some of the name and terminology changes though. I know Race vs Ancestory was a drama for a while, but who was upset about "monk", "rogue", or "barbarian"? I'm not sure on this one. I might try it since I can sell it to people as a 5e varient so I avoid the whole "I don't want to learn another system" thing, but if you guys have any takes on it, I'd like to hear it.

Never worked with Nimble 5e.

Look here is how you fix your issues:
Random stats, random powers. Because your real issue isn't the system, its the players who are metagaming it.
You can't really do that in PF2e due to non-viable characters and their unforgiving math curves so you do the next best thing: Pregens.

Have your players fill out a "personality test" - but its bullshit (though feel free to steal some Meyers Briggs or Scientology or w/e) and just see who describes which of your Pregens the closests and say "this your character".

This won't work for reach, but see if you can talk your players into doing a one-shot of Mazerats.
It is a free game, less than 6 pages. Its got fun stuff like random magic and "(opposed) attack roll is also your damage roll" to remove mini-max and make combat fast. Try to talk your existing players into giving it a try.

Additionally wait for one of the Savageworld rent boys I just paged to show up and here what they have to say.

 

[AnOminous]

I'm talking about when you're in a dungeon, and there are some hobgoblins that offered to parlay, and you slaughter them all instead, well, later I'll let you know that the leader was going to tell you about a secret door leading to a cache of with a Ring of Protection and some other loot.

Tbh my actual dungeon crawls, when I did those, were generally pretty straightforward hack and slash, trap dodging type stuff. Above ground you had to behave yourself more. It was also generally a moral imperative to kill "ontologically evil" monsters. So it's chaotic evil, it's a monster? If you can, you kill it.

 

[MembersSchoolPizza]

Dungeon World is garbage. All PtbA games are garbage, though @Adamska said there was about a Deli or something one he sort of liked but even then it suffers from the same PtbA problem:
Basically all PtbA games are meant to be effectively one-session. There is almost no room for progression because everything is supposed to be an archetype.

PtbA is a pure narrative game by and for people who are too insecure about just wanting a narrative game. You don't need to their gay shit. Just have everyone start playing pretend and ever now and then roll 2d6 and if the result is 1-6 make them fail horribly at the theing they just described, 7-9 add a a dark negative to what they just did, and 10+ just let them keep talking. There, you now have your own custome PtbA variant. now go commit suicide by ritual disembowelment to remove the stain from your family's honor

All Apocalypse games and their aborted hellspawn children are RPG-like games made by people who like the idea of playing an RPG but not actually playing an RPG.

RPGs are the product of people who wanted to play things like Conan, Fafhard and the Grey Mouser, Lord of the Rings, even things like Beowulf and old Greek and Roman myths as games.

Apocalypse games are games that appeal to people who want to play Critical Roll: The Game. And yes, I know, they predate the rise of Let's Plays as we understand them today, but I stand by it.

This is broadly true of all narrativist RPGs, but Apoalypse-spawned ones are some of the worst offenders.

Call it a hot take, whatever, sorry-not-sorry, give me MATI stickers.

 

[EleventySeven]

I also gave Nimble 5e a read

The entire combat system has to be reworked with it since it mostly gets rid of rolling to hit. All the feats that change how you hit, all the class features, magic items, etc. That and anything balanced around being a reaction's a bit fucked.
From what I can tell, it does away with Vancian magic all together, removes constitution, etc. It's not even DnD at that point. The system looks playable, just very different from 5e to the point of probably just warranting a whole new system instead of trying to do surgery on 5e. I wouldn't consider it "5e compatible" as they claim.

Out of curiosity, what did they change monk, rogue, and barbarian to?

 

[The Ugly One]

Tbh my actual dungeon crawls, when I did those, were generally pretty straightforward hack and slash, trap dodging type stuff. Above ground you had to behave yourself more. It was also generally a moral imperative to kill "ontologically evil" monsters. So it's chaotic evil, it's a monster? If you can, you kill it.

I run megadungeons, so if you are trying to slowly grind everyone to death, (a) they're boring, and (b) you miss out on the good stuff. Leroy Jenkinsing the whole thing is a bad idea.

 

[AnOminous]

I run megadungeons, so if you are trying to slowly grind everyone to death, (a) they're boring, and (b) you miss out on the good stuff. Leroy Jenkinsing the whole thing is a bad idea.

I didn't really move past the standard dungeon crawl until switching to games other than D&D, like CoC, where a Leeroy Jenkins approach is absolute suicide. Also even with the Kill on Sight rule, if you did something super stupid like LJ'ing a red dragon, you'd get what you deserve. Gobbos and the like though? They're for killing.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[Judge Dredd]

Out of curiosity, what did they change monk, rogue, and barbarian to?

Zephyr, Cheat, and Berserker. All the classes have had similar renames.

After doing some thinking, I might know why. Because it's pretending to be 5e compatible, it wants to avoid the issue of people trying to mix vanilla 5e classes with these. That's the only theory I can come up with. Even the wizard was renamed as "mage". Also the classes are in a separate book. I don't know why.

Look here is how you fix your issues:
Random stats, random powers. Because your real issue isn't the system, its the players who are metagaming it.

Disagree. My issue is that I'm low on players, and 5e and PF2 are full of maths and mechanics that add little of substance to the game and slow things down too much. While their relative complexity makes most unwilling to try other systems, believing them to be as complex and involved.

I'm going to power level. My PF2 ran long due to the paranoia of my players, but it's nearing it's end. I'm down to a bare minimum of players. One is unreliable, one is likely to quit after the campaign due to a palpable lack of interest between sessions (he's good in session), and the other is basically on board for anything serious. Recruitment has always been difficult, but my player pool has dried up. No one seems to care about RPGs any more.

Rules lite systems are too simple. Complex systems they don't want to learn. 5e is too slow so people get bored and check out during the game. PF2 is too maths heavy and build dependent. Both 5e and PF2 are written in legalese. Even when people agree with me about the systems flaws, it's difficult to get them to try something else. eg. One guy I know will only play 5e or Mutants and Masterminds.

In order to recruit people I'm going to have to cast a wide net, which means going with a popular system, a popular setting, or both.

This is why I'm asking about Nimble, because it sells itself as a 5e compatible/derived game, it might be an easier sell. It might not be. But as @Adamska said, they might get to the table and nope out once they realize it's a completely different game pretending to be 5.5e.

For what it's worth, I can do some homebrew to 5e to make it a bit quicker, but that's an uphill battle and at best brings the game to the lofty heights of tolerable. PF2 is much harder to do so due to how complex and interconnected it all is.

The entire combat system has to be reworked with it since it mostly gets rid of rolling to hit. All the feats that change how you hit, all the class features, magic items, etc. That and anything balanced around being a reaction's a bit fucked.
From what I can tell, it does away with Vancian magic all together, removes constitution, etc. It's not even DnD at that point. The system looks playable, just very different from 5e to the point of probably just warranting a whole new system instead of trying to do surgery on 5e. I wouldn't consider it "5e compatible" as they claim.

Agreed. The only thing it has in common is the high fantasy feel without going full JRPG. However, it claiming to be 5e compatible might be enough to get the normies to at least give it a look.

 

[EleventySeven]

Zephyr, Cheat, and Berserker. All the classes have had similar renames.

After doing some thinking, I might know why. Because it's pretending to be 5e compatible, it wants to avoid the issue of people trying to mix vanilla 5e classes with these. That's the only theory I can come up with. Even the wizard was renamed as "mage". Also the classes are in a separate book. I don't know why.

It's not out of some sensitivity thing cause Berserker is a culturally specific term. Maybe it's just to avoid le copyright stuff but that doesn't make much sense either. Probably just gotta be special epic unique stuff for some reason. And they're in a separate book to make as much money as possible, I reckon.

Doesn't look too bad as a system, though. If you do manage to get to try it, you should let us know how it goes. I won't try it myself, but it'd be neat to see if it ever spirals off into its own sort of system.

 

[anti SJW]

 

[Ghostse]

This is why I'm asking about Nimble, because it sells itself as a 5e compatible/derived game, it might be an easier sell. It might not be. But as @Adamska said, they might get to the table and nope out once they realize it's a completely different game pretending to be 5.5e.

For what it's worth, I can do some homebrew to 5e to make it a bit quicker, but that's an uphill battle and at best brings the game to the lofty heights of tolerable. PF2 is much harder to do so due to how complex and interconnected it all is.

You can check out Torches In the Dark 5 torches deep (warning: the creators hate you and went from "partly tranny-soy" to "full tranny-soy"). That is a supposedly 100% 5e compatible just with reworked player and monster stats with (supposedly) easier conversion. Their goal was to bring back dungeon devling to 5e in quasi OSR and people seemed think it was OK, just they'd drift to other OSR or back to 5e.

Pregens are still your solution. And here is how.
"oh man that spell really slows things down due to how it affects everything." (spell no longer appears in your game because its not on your pregens)
"Oh man that fighter ability makes combat take forever to resolve" (fighter ability no longer appears in your game)
"This subclass makes everything a headache" (subclass no longer is in your game)

It's not out of some sensitivity thing cause Berserker is a culturally specific term. Maybe it's just to avoid le copyright stuff but that doesn't make much sense either. Probably just gotta be special epic unique stuff for some reason. And they're in a separate book to make as much money as possible, I reckon.

Doesn't look too bad as a system, though. If you do manage to get to try it, you should let us know how it goes. I won't try it myself, but it'd be neat to see if it ever spirals off into its own sort of system.

actually if they are pitching 100% 5e compatibility and they renamed all the classes that makes sense from a stand point of firewalling & filtering 5e content. Anything 5e that mentions a class is now invalid, but you can import the more general stuff.

But I really doubt it is. It really just sounds like they're just trying to profit off the "5e" name.

 

[AnOminous]

View attachment 6635943

The original Keep on the Borderlands was probably the first D&D module I ever GMed, with the Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (where the "dungeon" is actually a spaceship) being the first AD&D module I ever did.

Not sure why I spoilered but it's possible there are still people out there who have never played the classics.

 

[HouseofLeafs]

Something I want to know. Is it true they don't use the word "transform" in it to avoid copyright problems?

They use the term alt mode when describing mechanics. But only use transform as a verb to describe alt modes.

 

[Judge Dredd]

You can check out Torches In the Dark (warning: the creators hate you and went from "partly tranny-soy" to "full tranny-soy"). That is a supposedly 100% 5e compatible just with reworked player and monster stats with (supposedly) easier conversion. Their goal was to bring back dungeon devling to 5e in quasi OSR and people seemed think it was OK, just they'd drift to other OSR or back to 5e.

I couldn't find torches in the dark. Did you mean 5 torches deep?

Part of the problem, and why I think OSR systems, and even 5e compatibles like 5 Torches Deep, 5e Hardcore Mode, etc. fall flat outside of a small niche is because they don't understand the problem. Most people don't want a mud and inbreds character meat grinder setting. While the term is used disparagingly, I think people actually want fantasy super heroes. Trying to turn 5e into OSR won't work.

Pregens are still your solution. And here is how.
"oh man that spell really slows things down due to how it affects everything." (spell no longer appears in your game because its not on your pregens)
"Oh man that fighter ability makes combat take forever to resolve" (fighter ability no longer appears in your game)
"This subclass makes everything a headache" (subclass no longer is in your game)

Interesting idea. Might be good for one shots, but has limited use for a campaign.

But I really doubt it is. It really just sounds like they're just trying to profit off the "5e" name.

Agreed. Though after watching a video about it (after I made my previous posts) it supposedly started as a zine of house rules to speed up 5e, and has grown over time.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

I'm talking about when you're in a dungeon, and there are some hobgoblins that offered to parlay, and you slaughter them all instead, well, later I'll let you know that the leader was going to tell you about a secret door leading to a cache of with a Ring of Protection and some other loot.

The first only war campaign I played in we literally did that with the rebels and turns out the governor was actually a prick so we are went back up to the ship talked to the interrogator he went a bit nuts we dressed up in basically pimp outfits and murdered the entire aristocracy of the planet.

 

[Ghostse]

Did you mean 5 torches deep?

I did. Got it jumbled with Blades in the Dark.

they don't understand the problem. Most people don't want a mud and inbreds character meat grinder setting. While the term is used disparagingly, I think people actually want fantasy super heroes.

I don't think 5TD or just "hardcore" mode really fixes the issues with 5e if you want to get off Fantasy Super Heroes.

But what most people don't want to slog and meaningless accounting, but they do want is tension and stakes; again these supposed 'meat grinder' systems with random characters give get more actual roleplay from players than I've gotten from 5e because people think about their characters instead of their expectations of being dark brooding tiefling. And after about lvl 5, its hard to meaningfully give those in 5e.

 

[Gingervitis]

I did. Got it jumbled with Blades in the Dark.


I don't think 5TD or just "hardcore" mode really fixes the issues with 5e if you want to get off Fantasy Super Heroes.

But what most people don't want to slog and meaningless accounting, but they do want is tension and stakes; again these supposed 'meat grinder' systems with random characters give get more actual roleplay from players than I've gotten from 5e because people think about their characters instead of their expectations of being dark brooding tiefling. And after about lvl 5, its hard to meaningfully give those in 5e.

I feel like there needs to be a bit of balance. People don’t want to go through a character meat grinder every session (though admittedly, a oneshot in the Tomb of Horrors doesnt sound too bad), but there are zero stakes in 5e, to the point where there are stories of players crying like literal toddlers when a character dies. In that regard, I wonder if max HP at level 1 and death’s door rules are the best way to go about this.