Warhammer 40k

[p1138]

otoh they could by a printer and sell the models themselves, but that's more involved than simply ordering boxes from the distributor...

Sure, but most LGS would need to build a room for that, Have a slightly negative air pressure ventilation system in the room, now suddenly deal with OSHA or whatever the local equivalent is for a store where employees are normally just selling MTG cards, PPE gear for anyone that goes in that room, because they're a business proper storage and treatment of things as hazmat, etc.
These guys with their clickbait thumbnail actually do show the crap they need to deal with in Canada at their fairly large game store(they were renting rooms at one point a few years ago for people to bunk in and shit... really weird) and you can bet most states in the US would be requiring similar.

The average LGS is not going to want to deal with all of that, especially because now it means they're running a print farm as a side business and would need to be selling things online like the guys in the video do, to get the volume of customers needed to justify the print farm(MWG also works with some tabletop kickstarters to do physical distribution of printed KS rewards in NA).

edit: And that's also assuming you don't get fucked by the city/county with zoning issues

 

[Judge Dredd]

GW will definetly will never ever be dented by anything at this point though, like D&D it picked up an obscene amount of mainstream traction in the last couple years, it still has enough mindless consoomers and the ones who wont buy the plastic will wikiwhore the lore and play the vidya games.

DnD is currently dying due to mismanagement. Star Wars is in the shitter, and Marvel might be going the same way unless Disney can get a clue. GW, like other IPs, needs to rekindle the fire every now and then. These IPs aren't magic or "too big to fail" like their corporate holders think. It's entirely possible for GW to become an "old man" franchise like Buck Rogers or Captain Scarlet.

Frostgrave, OPR, Trench Crusade, none of this will hurt GW and are likely barely a blip on their radar. If they're smart, they'll get into possition to swoop in if GW fucks up too much. To keep with the DnD analogy, they should aim to be the next Paizo or Kobold Press.

 

[The tired cat]

To keep with the DnD analogy, they should aim to be the next Paizo or Kobold Press.

Only Paizo also kinda dicked themselves hard, so maybe Kobold press? Frankly, I'd say seems people are looking a tad more into other types of TTRPG's that aren't D&D or Pathfinder.

 

[augment]

I agree with Dredd; I see GW's properties going along the same path as Harley Davidson, where it's eventually going to appeal to lifestyle type owners. Unless a miracle happens and some production and design genius figures out a way to boost engagement for younger demographics.
It wasn't too long ago that star wars fans were declaring their cult "unbreakable, too big to fail". Look how well that turned out.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

It wasn't too long ago that star wars fans were declaring their cult "unbreakable, too big to fail". Look how well that turned out.

Star Wars is still one of the biggest media franchises in the world, beaten out only by Pokemon and maybe two or three others that I can't be bothered to look up. Just because a company or a franchise is turned to utter shit doesn't mean it failed or has stopped printing free money. Star Wars hasn't produced anything of worth other than maybe The Mandalorian in years. It pumps millions into these projects that are terrible. It doesn't matter though because the franchise still makes billions. Normies don't care and are happy enough to watch anything with a lightsaber in it. It doesn't stop kids from buying toys of the characters, or Fortnite from making Storm troopers do the latest meme dance. It is the most successful it has ever been.

 

[p1138]

Star Wars is still one of the biggest media franchises in the world, beaten out only by Pokemon and maybe two or three others that I can't be bothered to look up. Just because a company or a franchise is turned to utter shit doesn't mean it failed or has stopped printing free money. Star Wars hasn't produced anything of worth other than maybe The Mandalorian in years. It pumps millions into these projects that are terrible. It doesn't matter though because the franchise still makes billions. Normies don't care and are happy enough to watch anything with a lightsaber in it. It doesn't stop kids from buying toys of the characters, or Fortnite from making Storm troopers do the latest meme dance. It is the most successful it has ever been.

Indeed. Normies don't care, still watch the shows, still go to the theme parks, still buy merch, etc.

Same with D&D. It's not dying. Oh no, it only has 60% of the TTRPG market now instead of 70% or whatever, that's not "dying". Yes, a bunch of other companies produced competing products, but outside of youtube and shit just like with trench crusade an OPR, is anyone actually playing them? How much shelf space is dedicated to D&D at the game store compared to pathfinder 2 and because someone mentioned kobold press, whatever they're doing with Black Flag, Tales of the Valiant, or whatever it's called this month? Just because Hasbro can't figure out how to make more money off of it, doesn't mean it's "dying". Hell, Critical Role has taken more of a hit in viewership than Hasbro has with D&D, because it seems people have finally gotten bored of watching 400 hours of voice actors play a campaign, and there was hardly any interest in Matt Mercer's rules light system he dropped after the D&D OGL fiasco(the reality is the critical role people made a fuckload of money off of their cartoon, and will likely be spending more time on that since that seems to be as popular as CR was at it's peak if not moreso).

That said. Warhammer was never at the same level of Star Wars, D&D, Marvel, and likely never will be and the company actually does need to consider onboarding new players/customers, but even then that still happens. There's always some kid(I mean actual kids, like 12-14) at the LGS wanting to play a game of 40k that some of the adults generally try to avoid because even at the LGS no one wants to be the weirdo adult who is always playing games with other people's kids. What GW primarily needs to not do, is shit up the entire company top to bottom like they did in 2013 pissing everyone off with lawsuits, shit rules/balance, retail stores bleeding money(being a loss lead is one thing, but just burning cash for no reason is another, it's why so many switched to being closed on Monday and Tuesday, and only single employee/manager running the place), a playerbase of weirdos driving other people away from it(another reason why GW doesn't seem to actually like people playing in its stores), providing customers with a laughably inferior product(finecast had been out for a couple years at that point and everyone hated it), fans still had bad memories of CS Goto, Robin Cruddace, Matt Ward, etc. WHFB had been left to collect dust on shelves, and Privateer Press was able to swoop in with a product(before spending the next decade doing everything possible to sabotage themselves, and even the new owner of the IP still fucking it up to this day).

I don't think GW is stupid enough to allow such an idiotic convergence of dumb shit occur all at once again, but it's not impossible. Stagnation and becoming a boomer brand is a more likely possibility.

 

[ShitLurker]

Hot damn! Those new Eldar look fantastic. Might actually buy something for once.

They run a shop in canada, and explain why they think it'll be a giant waste of time. 3.3 million dollars is nothing compared to GW, Asmodee, CGL, Corvus Belli, etc. That's the equivalent of a fucking line item to these companies. Then consider that 20,000 players globally, assuming they all actually do end up playing is actually next to nothing.

Really like their channel. It's amazing the seethe they generate with some of their videos. The why Malifaux failed had tons of "How daaaare you!" When Malifaux is at best a game frozen in amber due to how horribly it is to try and get into it.

But I fully agree with their take as store owners. 0 interest in pushing something they won't see a dime for till non kickstarter stuff hits stores and being STL based there is a bigger risk of people just printing their shit or printing it for each other.

An interesting take.

I don't know if I mentioned this here, but this is part of why I support OPR making original factions and making starter kits. Ideally they should start making plastic kits. Theory crafting online and making 3D prints is all well and good, but at some point you have to get into meatspace and play the thing. But shops having to sell things and thus give a reason to promote them makes sense.

I think OPR should still keep their knockoff factions though. For a store there is a real insentive to push OPR.

"Hate gw games? Play OPR instead! All your current models are valid in it!". Being model agnostics still gives consumer options in store.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

"Hate gw games? Play OPR instead! All your current models are valid in it!". Being model agnostics still gives consumer options in store.

Unless you're playing in tournaments, or your opponent is ridiculously stingy on the rules, all wargames are model agnostic. The only thing that matters is the base. Rules aren't really balanced around what pose or model is on the base since that would drastically limit what they can produce for it. Warhammer could be played with paper cutouts if you really wanted. Yes, OPR has factions that are direct copies of Warhammer factions so it gives you an idea of who they are. Otherwise I never understood "model agnostic" since it's not like James Workshop is going to break into your home and flip the table if you are using Intercessor models to represent Immortals because you wanted to try Necron rules.

 

[ShitLurker]

Unless you're playing in tournaments, or your opponent is ridiculously stingy on the rules, all wargames are model agnostic. The only thing that matters is the base. Rules aren't really balanced around what pose or model is on the base since that would drastically limit what they can produce for it. Warhammer could be played with paper cutouts if you really wanted. Yes, OPR has factions that are direct copies of Warhammer factions so it gives you an idea of who they are. Otherwise I never understood "model agnostic" since it's not like James Workshop is going to break into your home and flip the table if you are using Intercessor models to represent Immortals because you wanted to try Necron rules.

That's great with your buddies, but I've never in my life played vs some rando a game while not using it's official line. That's not how it works for most wargamers and said rando is completely in his right to tell you that he doesn't want to play vs your proxies.

Also, in GW games specifically, sny official events demand the right models, so anybody that does the tournament circuit is npt avoiding that.

 

[p1138]

Unless you're playing in tournaments, or your opponent is ridiculously stingy on the rules, all wargames are model agnostic. The only thing that matters is the base. Rules aren't really balanced around what pose or model is on the base since that would drastically limit what they can produce for it. Warhammer could be played with paper cutouts if you really wanted. Yes, OPR has factions that are direct copies of Warhammer factions so it gives you an idea of who they are. Otherwise I never understood "model agnostic" since it's not like James Workshop is going to break into your home and flip the table if you are using Intercessor models to represent Immortals because you wanted to try Necron rules.

Just the base? No. I don't scream about everything needing to be 100% WYSIWYG(as in, that model doesn't have a grenade on its belt, that one has a force sword and not a power sword, etc type shit) either, but if you show up to a game with 5 units of dudes that all the models have hatchets, and I'm supposed to remember 1 unit is rifles, 1 unit is pistols and hatchets, 1 unit is swords and shields, 1 unit is mixed... no I'm not playing you even if you're a friend of mine. I am not going to accept the burden of needing to remember which of your proxies is actually what if they aren't representing what you're claiming them to be(assuming you don't mix them up yourself on accident), and getting mixed up about it 90 minutes into a game because I moved too close to a unit and now I've got models getting shot at when I didn't remember they had ranged weapons, and that's not even including the possibility of a rando cheating while doing that.

I've seen this "all games are model agnostic" thing spouted repeatedly(especially by that Tabletop Minions guy, I'm not calling him uncle anything he can fuck off with that). and that's fine for the kitchen table, or testing out a new game system or whatever, but I'm not dealing with that at the game store.

 

[augment]

WYSIWYG is a conspiracy put forward and ran by the miniature magnet industry complex.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

It still doesn't disprove that all game aren't model agnostic. Sure maybe it's an extreme case to use all models with hatchets to represent a unit with mixed firearms, but that's not because it's incompatible with the rules, it's a matter of ease of play. There isn't anything magical about GW sculpts, and I doubt most players would be able to recognize the difference between the specialized weapons in most armies. How many people can tell the difference between a Necron Gauss Blaster and a Tesla carbine? At a glance a crisis suit plasma rifle and flamer look very similar. If I printed out an army of OPR Robot Legions and used them for Necrions the game plays exactly the same. The point being as long as there is consistency across your models, and you aren't using two completely different styles to represent the same thing, or have a clear indicator of which models have which equipment, then all games are model agnostic. It's like Chess. As long as it's clear which is your pawn, and which is your king, the actual model doesn't really make a difference.

 

[p1138]

It still doesn't disprove that all game aren't model agnostic. Sure maybe it's an extreme case to use all models with hatchets to represent a unit with mixed firearms, but that's not because it's incompatible with the rules, it's a matter of ease of play. There isn't anything magical about GW sculpts, and I doubt most players would be able to recognize the difference between the specialized weapons in most armies. How many people can tell the difference between a Necron Gauss Blaster and a Tesla carbine? At a glance a crisis suit plasma rifle and flamer look very similar. If I printed out an army of OPR Robot Legions and used them for Necrions the game plays exactly the same. The point being as long as there is consistency across your models, and you aren't using two completely different styles to represent the same thing, or have a clear indicator of which models have which equipment, then all games are model agnostic. It's like Chess. As long as it's clear which is your pawn, and which is your king, the actual model doesn't really make a difference.

40k is basically the worst example to use for this because it doesn't use volume based on base sizes for LOS. So no, even if you've modeled the ranged weapons as ranged weapons, but I still can't distinguish which is which in a mixed unit, I'm not playing against that, and because we're talking about 40k not using pre-determined volumes, that's how you end up with someone with midget space marines, or all of their guard happens to be standing straight at attention with their rifles vertical or whatever.

I never said it disproved it, I was pointing out why it rarely happens and why people can and will say "no".

 

[Judge Dredd]

I agree with Dredd; I see GW's properties going along the same path as Harley Davidson, where it's eventually going to appeal to lifestyle type owners. Unless a miracle happens and some production and design genius figures out a way to boost engagement for younger demographics.
It wasn't too long ago that star wars fans were declaring their cult "unbreakable, too big to fail". Look how well that turned out.

I could sperg about Harley Davidson, but the short version is it's a company that killed itself by getting the government to ban the competition (that being import bikes). This worked great short term, but Harley had no reason to innovate, so when superiour Japanese bikes made it to the USA, they were so behind and couldn't catch up.

Star Wars is still one of the biggest media franchises in the world, beaten out only by Pokemon and maybe two or three others that I can't be bothered to look up. Just because a company or a franchise is turned to utter shit doesn't mean it failed or has stopped printing free money. Star Wars hasn't produced anything of worth other than maybe The Mandalorian in years. It pumps millions into these projects that are terrible. It doesn't matter though because the franchise still makes billions. Normies don't care and are happy enough to watch anything with a lightsaber in it. It doesn't stop kids from buying toys of the characters, or Fortnite from making Storm troopers do the latest meme dance. It is the most successful it has ever been.

I disagree. Hasbro is currently getting sued by investors for overproducing merch and having it gather dust at discount retailers. Even Baby Yoda, the most popular thing in modern star wars, is gathering dust in discount bins because they made so many.

They might bring in billions in revenue, but that doesn't matter when they've spent tens of billions on production. As we're seeing with the Sweet Baby Inc drama, it's good if a random indie game sells a million copies. It's quite another when it's Dragon Age and needed to sell 30 million just to break even.

Normies don't care, still watch the shows, still go to the theme parks, still buy merch, etc.

Except they aren't. Star Wars Acolyte bombed, and Disney has been pissing off their most loyal park consoomers with price hikes and declining quality.

I've seen this "all games are model agnostic" thing spouted repeatedly(especially by that Tabletop Minions guy, I'm not calling him uncle anything he can fuck off with that). and that's fine for the kitchen table, or testing out a new game system or whatever, but I'm not dealing with that at the game store.

This would require a huge deep dive, but it's one of those things that's true, and yet not.

It's like when people say "you can still play third edition! No one is taking your books away!". It's true, but I already have a drought of players, and getting an old edition even more so. It's also not widely available in print any more. So technically you can still play, but it's not the same as there's not the wealth of opponents, there's not the excitement of building a model collection or seeing what new variant or codex will shake things up.

"All games are model agnostic" ignore things like lore, tone, and other elements. Putting aside WYSIWYG for a minute. If you want an abstract war game, then play chess. If you want a grim dark sci-fi fantasy future, play 40k. I'm reminded of the "no unpainted models" rule many GWs had. Without this rule, people would play with grey plastic and proxies all the time. This kind of ruins it for those who want to see armies clash. It's like this old meme.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Someone has to dispatch the GW marines to Ukraine both sides are illegally using GW copyright we are going to be sending you a cease and assist letter

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

View attachment 6679575
Someone has to dispatch the GW marines to Ukraine both sides are illegally using GW copyright we are going to be sending you a cease and assist letter

GW lawyers suddenly falling out of high rise buildings would certainly be a twist in this war nobody seen coming.

 

[Michael Wade]

Le Modern Audience Villain: "I'll literally boil an entire planet down to make a soup out of the terror chemicals from a billion tortured civilians' death throes, but I'd NEVER EVER be Sexist, Racist, or Transphobic!"

I'm pretty sure genetically engineering an entire race to be self sufficient and make humanity obsolete isn't classically woke.

Frankly it seems like bile got killed one too many times and is now going through an island of Dr moreau phase.

 

[ShitLurker]

"All games are model agnostic" ignore things like lore, tone, and other elements.

Agreed with all of your points. your "they aren't burning your books" point is extra aplicable. You can play Rogue Trader, just don't whine if you want more than 1 regular player. It's why 40k is so damn popular. Not because the game is high quality (it isn't) but no matter what store you go, people will play 40k.

Also, you may be fine with using whatever, but your opponents may not be so keen on it. Be it because not using the actual models ruins their immersion or simply them thinking "I spent the money, no way you are getting a free ride".

Between friends there is no issue I would imagine, but if you intend to play with randoms and don't bother with the official models of the system you may find yourself having problems to schedule games and store owners may not be too keen to see you either if you don't buy your proxies there.

Model agnostic games on the other hand remove the "annoy opponent" part because it's expected in the system. If you play not marines in OPR and use marine models nobody will bat an eye, if you play Kings of war an elf army, and those models very much look like the elves that one would expect for the unit, nobody bats an eye

I disagree. Hasbro is currently getting sued by investors for overproducing merch and having it gather dust at discount retailers. Even Baby Yoda, the most popular thing in modern star wars, is gathering dust in discou

Agreed, but not just that. The secondary market is also bleeding like mad. Vader related merch which would have been a winner 10 years ago is dropping like a brick. Inflation is a bitch and people are really fucking done with Star Wars. Yes, it's still big enough that it's not collapsing, but it's also definitely a shadow of what it was.

 

[p1138]

Agreed, but not just that. The secondary market is also bleeding like mad. Vader related merch which would have been a winner 10 years ago is dropping like a brick. Inflation is a bitch and people are really fucking done with Star Wars. Yes, it's still big enough that it's not collapsing, but it's also definitely a shadow of what it was.

Exactly. The franchise is a mess, but Disney probably isn't going to be selling it any time soon as it's still possible to un-fuck the past 10 years of damage done to it. This also isn't the only time the franchise has been at a low. It was basically stagnant in the 90s outside of the diehard fans consuming the additional media and it was stagnant again after the prequels. Even if the sequel trilogy were good, it would have still hit a downward slide. And as far as Marvel, they and DC have damn near bankrupted themselves 2-3 times each now since the 80s.

 

[The tired cat]

Holy waffles, Krieg are actually gettin' a full box AND codex? Man, Imperial Guard players gonna be happy.

It was basically stagnant in the 90s outside of the diehard fans consuming the additional media and it was stagnant again after the prequels.

I mean, good fucking luck gettin' Star Wars fans admit how this franchise hit a brick wall. Specially since now they believe it's their sacred duty to suck off the prequels AND all that shit came in between. Like, seriously do people remember half the "What in the fuck"-ery shit we had with the expanded universe books.