Philosophy Tube / Oliver Lennard / Oliver "Olly" Thorn / Abigail Thorn - Breadtube's Patrick Bateman.

I disagree with "Mx. Choob is a straight man" thing. Even if that were the case, he would show actual attraction to women. But the only example of this was his ex (?), whom he cheated on with men in dresses anyway. Olly is a misogynistic gay whore who has appropriated the lesbian label for his faggot role plays. Women are his enemies, rivals in some invisible competition, and he often shows how he really feels about them. That smug tweet about his neighbour and his girlfriend is a prime example. The amount of jealousy and seething towards female sex behind it is astonishing.

Trooning out is what the most sexist closeted men do when they realise they no longer have to hide behind a male feminist facade. A very fascinating, yet morbidly amusing phenomenon.

No actual heterosexual would behave like this, I really don't understand why so many gay Kiwis on threads like this try to shill for the "actually straight" narrative when every fact contradicks it.
 
I disagree with "Mx. Choob is a straight man" thing. Even if that were the case, he would show actual attraction to women.
Eh, I think the best experiment would be what happened at the Tranch - drop Olly off somewhere with an actual woman with a vagina that he thought he could have a shot with and see what happens. Either way, I think labels like gay/straight eventually becomes pointless when someone's deep in a paraphilia. Like a wise kiwi once said "if someone's into balloons popping are they straight or gay?". Which is Blanchard's point on "pseudo-bisexuality" - the paraphilia comes first and above all, no matter what actual preference they have.

This is why so many end up in "T4T" relationships. It's not that they wouldn't want to be with a woman, it's that no sane and self-respecting woman would actually have them.
 
Either way, I think labels like gay/straight eventually becomes pointless when someone's deep in a paraphilia. Like a wise kiwi once said "if someone's into balloons popping are they straight or gay?". Which is Blanchard's point on "pseudo-bisexuality" - the paraphilia comes first and above all, no matter what actual preference they have.
Agreed. AGP means the distinction between gay and straight gets severely blurred, because the main point is you are sexual attracted to a fantasy version of yourself as a woman, and everything else is in service to that. Whether the people you sleep with have penises or not is less important than whether sleeping with them validates your fetish. You may not normally be attracted to men, but if sleeping with men makes you feel more like a real woman then that's all you need to get off.
 
I disagree with "Mx. Choob is a straight man" thing.
Well I meant straight as in AGP "lesbian" straight if you understand. Its an easy way to stick to orthodoxy while getting brownie points plus getting a pass to be a creep. Hes straight in so far as pursuing relationships, most troons would be straight if thats the metric. I dont think he would actually fuck a man or get fucked by one willingly unless fame and fortune is on the table, the sexually molested for Hollywood thing. But again, who knows, I could be fucking stupid.
Like a wise kiwi once said "if someone's into balloons popping are they straight or gay?". Which is Blanchard's point on "pseudo-bisexuality" - the paraphilia comes first and above all, no matter what actual preference they have.
Fully agree but I still prefer to pin down peoples characteristics in an accurate fashion. Succumbing to the Tism.
 
Eh, I think the best experiment would be what happened at the Tranch - drop Olly off somewhere with an actual woman with a vagina that he thought he could have a shot with and see what happens. Either way, I think labels like gay/straight eventually becomes pointless when someone's deep in a paraphilia. Like a wise kiwi once said "if someone's into balloons popping are they straight or gay?". Which is Blanchard's point on "pseudo-bisexuality" - the paraphilia comes first and above all, no matter what actual preference they have.

This is why so many end up in "T4T" relationships. It's not that they wouldn't want to be with a woman, it's that no sane and self-respecting woman would actually have them.
I see where you're coming from. It might make sense in the case of some loser poly incels, but can hardly apply in the case of a youtuber or any other celebrety status troon. The thing is, Olly and others like him have enough clout to get any delulu bi/"lesbian" handmaiden they want. If he wanted to, he would have surrounded himself with those or gone further into feminism to score some of that intersectional fanny.

He's not that retarded, he knows what he wants and he gets it. And thanks to his woman costume he can act like a freak to other men to his rotten heart's content.

As for the balloon-popping question - usually every weird fetishist has a fixation on a particular sex (or both, you get the idea). Ask yourself who is most often depicted in the subject's inflation art and you'll get your answer. Also, I don't think a paraphilia as focused on gender and sexual identity as transgenderism can be relegated to such abstract and obscure fetishes. It's older form, transvestism, has clear roots in gay culture, and all the men who participate in it are gay in some way. Because they all suck dick, duh.
 
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If that was the case, he wouldnt be a "lesbian" currently which is the branding hes propagating. I believe hes doing it for attention, hes a straight guy whos gay for clout, sorta like how men say most bisexual women or non binary women are doing it for clout. Vaush did something similar when he rebranded as gay to avoid controversy, even though hes into little girls and had the ogre gf in 2019, ofc lusted after muslim women and poppy as well. This doesnt mean Olly isnt sexually degenerate, he certainly is but its an attention seeking tactic arising out of the abuse his ex gf did, chasing an emotional high. He is still straight, its not a Chris Tyson situation where hes chasing the goon dragon, hes doing the gooning for attention but its not really what he wants to do deep down.
AGPs exhibit what Blanchard described as "pseudobisexuality" or meta-attraction.

Background on AGP and how it relates to Ollie:
Imagine a straight man. He's attracted to women and not attracted to men. But his attraction goes haywire. Through over-identification with the object of his desire (women), he begins to project the attraction towards women inwards, and so becomes attracted to the idea of himself being a woman. This is AGP (auto-gyne-philia, self-woman-attraction) and Blanchard didn't exactly come up with it - as long as transvestites/transsexuals have been studied, it's been noted that there were a lot of female attracted ones who behave differently to male attracted ones. I'm talking from the get go, Magnus Hirschfeld noted it and used it as part of his legal defence of Transvestitenschein; some of his patients, including Lili Elbe, disliked having to spend time with homosexual transvestites that were attracted to men... he also noted the prevalence of narcissistic fetishism in his patients. Virginia Prince noted it and banned homosexuals from his group "Full Personality Expression", open only to transvestites attracted to women (he changed his tune when he realised he could latch onto the gay rights movement for acceptance). Harry Benjamin, father of WPATH, noted it and wrote extensively about it in The Transsexual Phenomenon, using it to establish what treatment pathways were suited to different patients.
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When Blanchard wrote about his findings in the 1980s, he was merely outlining something that was legitimately mainstream thought among clinicians at the time, something that only really began to change in the late 90s as queer theory gained a greater influence. There's vestiges of this in modern treatment pathways, which Ollie seethed about before:
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He's not entirely wrong on this one, either. The purpose of a GIC assessment is a risk assessment and safeguarding assessment. It's checking for things like if you're having a manic episode or psychotic break that might be making you decide to transition (and when you come out of it, you're going to freak out that you've fucked up your body with hormones). It's also trying to ascertain the history of your gender dysphoric feelings, to work out if you've felt this way for a long time or if you've just suddenly decided today that you want to transition, and what steps you're actually taking to live as the opposite gender (so are you going to drop out of treatment when it gets tricky). Are you just having an identity crisis and are trying to become someone else through any means necessary? Have you recently had a traumatic experience that might be causing alienation from your body? Are you just unhappy with how you look and want to try being something else? Is someone grooming you or pressuring you into this? Basically: are you someone with a clinical need for this treatment who is going to benefit from it and who understands the risks, or is giving you this treatment going to harm you (or have little to no benefit compared to the risks - remember, the NHS doesn't make money off this).

The questions about masturbation fantasies vary from trust to trust but are a holdover from Harry Benjamin's typography - they're basically trying to establish if when you are horny you are picturing a sexual partner, or you're picturing yourself as the opposite sex and getting turned on by that. Under the old model, this would get a patient labelled a transvestic fetishist (i.e. not really trans and therefore shouldn't get treatment - AGP by another name). Likewise "what do you wear when you masturbate" to see if the patient starts explaining how they put on high heels, makeup and slutty lingerie and get super turned on at themselves Occasionally this would also apply to patients who are attracted to women, as the thinking was that basically the only true trans people are exclusively attracted to men, and being attracted to women was an indicator they were AGPs. Most trusts don't ask these questions any more but it can vary based on clinic and clinician. The whole thing about AGPs was another aspect of safeguarding - do you just want to transition because the thought of yourself being a woman makes you horny? Then letting you transition is unlikely to have any significant clinical impact on your mental health and wellbeing, and in fact when you stop being so horny you may start developing mental health issues from what you've done to yourself (something we've seen happen time and again on this forum, but omertà means it's generally kept under wraps in trans circles).

GICs are a Wild West and so there's no consistent treatment protocol, which is partially why there's going to be a Cass Review for adult services (which is something trans advocacy groups did ask for, but are freaking out about now) now that NHS England is an overall commissioning body - previously these services emerged independently of each other and came up with their own ideas. Ollie is right that these assessments are often box ticking exercises now because basically any would-be transitioner can look up the "correct" answers to pass the panel. Ollie doesn't like that there's safeguarding around these processes and thinks anyone who turns up to their GP saying they want HRT should be given it no questions asks - he talks about it here, and establishes that he thinks it shouldn't be about "treating a medical need" but "letting people do what they want" (once again, this is not how the NHS works).
You've got a bloke who gets off to the thought of himself as a woman, because his sexuality has gone haywire. He's attracted to women, but he's also attracted to himself as a woman. Additionally, he's probably attracted to men who are feminising themselves - "GAMP", gynandromorphophile, someone attracted to men possessing certain female sex characteristics like breasts) which tend to colloquially be known as chasers. This is because they're aroused by the idea of doing it to themselves, which is where a lot of the seething about chasers comes from; their "heterosexual chad" is actually trying to skinwalk them and is turned on by them not being women, but men who resemble women. They're attracted to a man trying to look like a woman because they're living vicariously and getting aroused by it. Note that this doesn't technically count as bisexual, it's a man projecting a warped version of heterosexuality inwards onto himself, and then projecting that outwards again onto a gynandropmorph - they're not attracted to men, they're attracted to the transformation. They're not seeing the Gesamtheit.
One other off topic bit here that I thought I'd add in - the reason AGPs don't seem to understand if they pass or not, can't detect that they're being humoured, and get confused when people notice they're trans is because they're generally not seeing the Gesamtheit. When an AGP looks in the mirror, he doesn't see a balding man in a poorly fitting dress that emphasises his shoulders. He sees the transformation - where he had a beard, now he has a smooth face wearing lipstick and eyeshadow. Where he had a flat chest, now he has budding breasts. He sees his legs not as they are, but how those legs are wearing high heels and draped with a skirt. He's mostly seeing how he's different to how he was and how he's moved closer to being a woman, not really all the ways in which he's not a woman. To an extent with Ollie (who's still powered up by GAMP), he might have a bit more awareness of how he doesn't pass - but that excites him because it's another reminder that he's a man transforming himself into looking like a woman. This isn't even pseud's corner, he's explicitly said in the spoilered article "I am jealous of women, especially trans women". What /tttt/ would talk about being "hot and clocky".
But fundamentally, he wants to have sex with his ideal woman. Due to a crossed wire, he's attempting to achieve this by becoming that woman (which is why they e.g. look in the mirror and masturbate or get a euphoria boner from wearing a skirt). But obviously if he is the woman then he can't have sex with that woman. This is where the pseudobisexuality comes in. He wants to get fucked by a man so he can vicariously be the man fucking his ideal woman. Alternatively his conception of being a woman gets reduced down to "gets fucked by men", and so getting fucked by a man validates his self image of being a woman. So although he's not attracted to men, he's very aroused at the idea of being fucked by a man because it's fulfilling that heterosexuality-projected-inwards need. ContraPoints was pretty candid in the transbian coming out video; going out with Ollie was validating, even if Theryn was the real object of desire. One of the hallmarks of this is the fantasies they have around men tend to be faceless - the man isn't the important part of the picture, it's about how they're turned on by being desired by a man (as a woman) or allowing themselves to be penetrated by men (which they see as inherent to womanhood). Going back to the Lili Elbe example, he was disgusted by homosexuals and repulsed by men approaching him... except when he was dressed as Lili, at which point he was super turned on by men being attracted to him. That's why he pushed for the uterus transplant, because he wanted to get pregnant by his meta-attracted lover as the ultimate womanly thing to do (even if he was 48 at the time).

I'll concede that Blanchard's typologies are a bit restrictive and out of date - an accurate depiction of their time. The role the internet plays now (especially among lonely autistic kids and stuff like transmaxxing/pinkpilling) simply wasn't there in the 80s, and likewise there's not much of a framework for a bisexual who wants to transition (although in that framework he'd get shoehorned in to being AGP). Ollie did come out as bisexual before transitioning, after all, and post transition decided he was a lesbian.
 
Eh, I think the best experiment would be what happened at the Tranch - drop Olly off somewhere with an actual woman with a vagina that he thought he could have a shot with and see what happens.
It's already been done twice, I don't think we need a third interpretation of I Spit On Your Grave.
 
I disagree with "Mx. Choob is a straight man" thing. Even if that were the case, he would show actual attraction to women. But the only example of this was his ex (?), whom he cheated on with men in dresses anyway. Olly is a misogynistic gay whore who has appropriated the lesbian label for his faggot role plays. Women are his enemies, rivals in some invisible competition, and he often shows how he really feels about them. That smug tweet about his neighbour and his girlfriend is a prime example. The amount of jealousy and seething towards female sex behind it is astonishing.

Trooning out is what the most sexist closeted men do when they realise they no longer have to hide behind a male feminist facade. A very fascinating, yet morbidly amusing phenomenon.

No actual heterosexual would behave like this, I really don't understand why so many gay Kiwis on threads like this try to shill for the "actually straight" narrative when every fact contradicks it.
You're not entirely wrong, but there are some studies around this that indicate GAMPs and AGPs are their own warped version of heterosexuality:
Patterns-of-baseline-controlled-genital-arousal-by-the-different-types-of-erotic-stimuli.pngPatterns-of-raw-subjective-arousal-ie-in-units-from-0-no-sexual-arousal-to-10.png
This is from a paper entitled Sexual Arousal Patterns of Autogynephilic Male Cross-Dressers, published in the January 2017 Archives of Sexual Behavior. It's only one study, but it's a good illustration.
Participants were shown a variety of erotic stimuli depicting men, women and shemales. Straight men were very interested in women, not very interested in shemales and not interested in men. Gay men weren't interested in women, were less interested in shemales than straight men and were really interested in men. But GAMPs and AGPs show the same pattern. GAMPs are as attracted to women as heterosexuals, yet are even more aroused by shemales then straight men are aroused by women (and then not very interested in men, but more aroused by men than straight men are).
 
GAMPs are as attracted to women as heterosexuals, yet are even more aroused by shemales then straight men are aroused by women (and then not very interested in men, but more aroused by men than straight men are).
So bisexuals, who are attracted to anything superficially feminine, including other men and themselves. Which is a flavour of gay, since being attracted to femininity is not the same as being heterosexual in practice. Yet it does raise the question of whether this kind of acquired gay attraction is born of serious mental derangement that developed over time.

Don't forget how many of these people easily jump away from their wives and girlfriends to chase men in skirts and only them. For them, the actual female sex is secondary, if not a nuisance. The mental path to such behaviour may come from heterosexual elements, but the result is the same - a male loses his attraction to females and instead resorts to fetishising his own body and the bodies of other men. Quite reminiscent of how homosexuality used to be associated with extreme narcissism back in the day.

There was this article about the mouse utopia experiment, where many male mice turned gay/adopted female behaviour due to lack of new stimulation and living too comfortably. While I don't like to use animal comparisons, maybe this can somehow be correlated to how many men turn bi\gay in a society that promotes unrestricted porn consumption and hedonistic lifestyles.

Anyway, sorry for shitting up the thread, Imma stop now.
 
So bisexuals, who are attracted to anything superficially feminine, including other men and themselves. Which is a flavour of gay, since being attracted to femininity is not the same as being heterosexual in practice. Yet it does raise the question of whether this kind of acquired gay attraction is born of serious mental derangement that developed over time.

Don't forget how many of these people easily jump away from their wives and girlfriends to chase men in skirts and only them. For them, the actual female sex is secondary, if not a nuisance. The mental path to such behaviour may come from heterosexual elements, but the result is the same - a male loses his attraction to females and instead resorts to fetishising his own body and the bodies of other men. Quite reminiscent of how homosexuality used to be associated with extreme narcissism back in the day.

There was this article about the mouse utopia experiment, where many male mice turned gay/adopted female behaviour due to lack of new stimulation and living too comfortably. While I don't like to use animal comparisons, maybe this can somehow be correlated to how many men turn bi\gay in a society that promotes unrestricted porn consumption and hedonistic lifestyles.

Anyway, sorry for shitting up the thread, Imma stop now.
Don't worry too much about shitting up the thread, the PhilosophyTube thread invites this sort of conversation as Ollie both shares a lot of hot takes on this subject matter... and tends to go through content lulls between videos/acting gigs/attempts at relevance.
I think it's a way of looking at it, but it loses a lot of nuance. Background
Exactly how bisexuality works in men is unclear - I'd bring up this article:
On average, men who self-identified as bisexual showed the sexual arousal patterns you might expect, being less aroused than heterosexual men (but more aroused than homosexual men) by videos featuring women, and more aroused than heterosexual men by videos featuring men. This average data conceals the fact that some bisexual men were aroused by both sexes, while others were aroused only by men. The novel finding from this research is that these arousal patterns were correlated with sexual curiosity. Bisexual men on average reported more sexual curiosity than straight or gay men; moreover, among bisexual men only, greater sexual curiosity was linked with more arousal in response to videos featuring women. Bisexual men with low levels of sexual curiosity tended to be aroused only by other men.

Rieger and his colleagues speculate that shared genetic influences likely account for increased sexual curiosity and bisexual physiological arousal, thus explaining why these two characteristics correlate. They also propose that some bisexual men with elevated curiosity may "reattribute" their curiosity-related arousal to sexual stimuli depicting either sex, "thus increasing their sexual arousal and rewarding experiences associated with both men and women." What about bisexual men who are only aroused by men? Rieger's team suggest that their identity may be in a transitional stage – perhaps they self-identify as bisexual on the basis of past experiences and relationships, or to conform to societal norms.
According to these (limited) studies, some bisexuals are just gay and in denial. The rest are less into women and more into men than comparable heterosexuals, but are definitely aroused by both - they just also exhibit higher sexual curiosity. This is a bit backed up by other studies.
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Bisexual men did not differ significantly in their responses to male homosexual stimuli (depicting men engaging in sex) from homosexual men, and they did not differ significantly in their responses to heterosexual (depicting two women, without same-sex contact, engaged in sex with a man) and lesbian (depicting women engaging in sex) stimuli from heterosexual men. However, bisexual men displayed significantly higher levels of both genital and subjective sexual arousal to a bisexual stimulus (depicting a man engaged in sex with both a man and a woman) than either homosexual or heterosexual men. The findings of this study indicate that bisexuality in men is associated with a unique and specific pattern of sexual arousal.
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On average, bisexual-identified men were more aroused to males than females, and especially if they identified as “bisexual leaning gay.” However, also on average, bisexual men showed bisexual arousal, and especially if they were “bisexual leaning straight”. Furthermore, there was more variability in the arousal patterns of bisexual-identified men, compared with other men. Based on their physiological sexual arousal, bisexual men appear to be a more diverse group than men who identified as heterosexual or homosexual... Present findings suggest that, on average, bisexual men were more aroused to males than females. However, also on average, they were most likely to show bisexual arousal, compared with heterosexual and homosexual men. Furthermore, there was considerably more variability in their genital arousal to males or females, compared with other men.
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This paper is quite interesting in their methodology but basically
Exclusively heterosexual and homosexual men (who have Kinsey scores of 0 and 6, respectively) showed larger mean differences in their arousal to male and female stimuli compared with men who have intermediate Kinsey scores (i.e., scores of 1 to 5). Although this pattern is consistent with the possibility that intermediate Kinsey scores are associated with relatively bisexual arousal patterns, it is also consistent with an alternative explanation. It would be possible to create the mean arousal scores of men with Kinsey scores 1 to 5 (which appear relatively bisexual) by mixing men with arousal patterns similar to the means for Kinsey 0 (exclusively heterosexual) with those similar to Kinsey 6 (exclusively homosexual). Therefore, simply averaging each Kinsey group’s responses to male and to female stimuli can in principle produce misleading results. Thus, results depicted in Fig. 1 by themselves cannot provide conclusive evidence that men who report bisexual attractions have a more bisexual arousal pattern than monosexual men.
This is all exclusively about bisexual men, btw. Bisexuality in women seems to be an entirely different kettle of fish.
Basically if GAMPs showed arousal patterns in line with comparable bisexuals, you'd extrapolate that they'd show a lower arousal response to women and a higher arousal response to men. But they don't. They show the same arousal response to women as heterosexual men, which is seemingly at odds with how bisexuals operate. And you'd also generally expect to see a significantly higher arousal response to male stimuli, which also isn't there. (Not to mention, there's bisexuals who are not into trans people and don't find the mishmash attractive)

That's largely because GAMPs have a paraphilia. It's like a man who might have started out straight, associated high heels with women, developed a fetish for women wearing high heels, and ultimately turned that into a full blown paraphilia where he gets off to high heels and the woman is secondary to them - or he doesn't even need someone to be wearing high heels to be aroused by them. What Blanchard describes as an "erotic target location error". So GAMPs basically are attracted to women, but they've also got a disassociated attraction to women that ends up projected onto themselves. They're not aroused by men. When they see a man who's trying to make himself into a woman, that transformation arouses them, and prompts a stronger arousal response than any actual person causes (they're more attracted to self sissification than they are to women). It's not the underlying man they're attracted to.

You could characterise this as "but they're aroused in response to seeing a man so that's gay" but you miss out on a lot of the abnormal psychology that makes them tick. I'd agree there's an element of mouse utopia at play here, but the earliest writings about transsexuality I've looked at (~1890) already show a division between men who seem to be super gay and effeminate and are leaning into that, and then men who have an erotic fascination with dressing as or acting as women.
 
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Whether it's innate or induced you can't argue that doing things with other men is straight. That is a dumb argument. I think people are just uncomfortable with the idea that through perversion and abuse your sexual behaviors can change drastically because it threatens a lot of left leaning peoples ideas about LGB and also makes more right leaning people uncomfortable with the idea for the same reason but in the opposite direction.

I have a hard time trusting Blanchard and anyone in similar fields. While some of the data they collect is useful the fact their study this shit presents them with certain biases, they often have their own fixations and morbid curiosities that make them want to study these things rather than just wanting to help people IMO. (My thoughts have evolved on this but I actually believe that while some gayness is because of abuse I think there's also a fair number that are not but that it's bisexuality that is always 100% due to some sort of trauma or baking in perversion. It makes sense that a lot of them would be into and become transvestites since they are less likely to have a clear trajectory, so to speak, for their sexuality.)

Olly is a faggot is a faggot is a faggot. That's the word on that. Narcissism and attention seeking is hardly anyting new to men who fuck around with other men. It's built in.
 
Whether it's innate or induced you can't argue that doing things with other men is straight. That is a dumb argument.
They're attracted to women and they're not attracted to men. They may have sex with men despite not being attracted to them because it validates their psychosexual condition. When they turn into transbians they're imagining themselves and the other man as women and it's only through that warped perception that they can experience attraction and validation. Like I said, you can reduce this down to "they do stuff with men so they're gay", but it sort of skips over how weird the whole thing is.
 
They're attracted to women and they're not attracted to men. They may have sex with men despite not being attracted to them because it validates their psychosexual condition. When they turn into transbians they're imagining themselves and the other man as women and it's only through that warped perception that they can experience attraction and validation. Like I said, you can reduce this down to "they do stuff with men so they're gay", but it sort of skips over how weird the whole thing is.
I mean, I don't entirely disagree that it's abnormal in their own unique way but it's just as silly and reductive in the other direction to say that because of these special made up rules they make up for their fetish they're actually not gay/bi isn't the answer either. It's messy and complicated to explain because it's a messy and complicated sort of deviance. It really only serves their interest to take their word for it and play by their rules.

Hetero and homosexuality is very straight forward. Bisexuality doesn't have to be because there are more options for mixing and matching and more ways the attraction to either sex can express itself in terms of both preference for one or the other and preference for how one or the other styles themselves and treats you and these can also change over time. None of this changes that it's in fact bisexuality, it's just playing into DL and closeted delusions to say otherwise.

These men are also the ONLY case were this is ever in question. No one ever argues whether FTM who are in lesbian relationships are in fact lesbian. Or that FTM who only go after men are in fact straight because it would be a M/F couple.
 
A bloke and another bloke? Fags, simple as.
Posties.
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Morgana Ignis.
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Misgendering.
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A tranny book.
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Hank Green.
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Smear campaign.
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The War on Christmas.
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CareerCow Mitch Slater, aka Gemma.
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Bombshell essay.
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Exclusively on TransWrites.
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The essay in images, or most of it. Text below.
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https://transwrites.world/my-doctor-emailed-me-back/ (archive)
My Doctor Emailed Me Back

Abigail Thorn

Mon 23 December 2024 16:56, UK
Updated Mon 23 December 2024 20:36, UK

In 2022 I made a video about my attempt to get gender-affirming care from the NHS entitled “I Emailed My Doctor 133 Times.” I showed that Britain operates a discriminatory healthcare system in which trans people have to beg permission to transition whilst the same medicine is available to cis people much easier. This results in years-long delays that have contributed to the deaths of multiple patients. I compared my odyssey through the system to the Joseph Heller novel Catch-22.

Recently I was contacted by someone very senior at NHS England. I’ll call him Colonel Korn. He told me he and his colleagues enjoyed my video, which surprised me given how critical it was, but he wasn’t just writing as a fan. Korn knows the British trans community doesn’t trust the NHS. He knows that panic, misinformation, exploitation, and risky behaviours are common. But there are changes coming and it’s part of his job to communicate those changes to the public.

He asked if I would be willing to work with NHS England and its “stakeholder organisations” to present a series of short videos explaining the changes. His vision was for bare-bones factual content: e.g. “Here’s how you get referred to a Gender Identity Clinic.” He thought if I were to bring my experience as a communicator and my standing in the community to the project, the trust issue could be addressed.

Before going any further I’d like to make clear that I hold no personal ill-will towards Colonel Korn, who struck me as a sympathetic man doing his best. But I declined his offer, and during our meeting I tried to explain why.

A Clash of Ideologies

There is a clash going on in Britain between two fundamentally irreconcilable ideologies.

The NHS, DHSC, and many other official institutions like courts view transition as a response to a medical problem they call ‘gender dysphoria’ or ‘gender incongruence.’ From this starting point it seems appropriate that trans people have to get permission to transition: transness is a medical matter with inherent risks that ought to be controlled by “specialists.” Sometimes those specialists delay or deny permission, but that’s just part of the job. It also makes sense to ask which treatments are “most effective at treating dysphoria” and explore alternative treatments through trials, reviews, consultations, etc. I call this view ‘Pathologization.’

According to Pathologization, past treatments like electric shocks simply failed to alleviate patients’ dysphoria. These days we have more effective methods, and one day we might discover a cheap way of treating it without transition- a silver bullet conversion therapy. Doctors and managers will determine when and whether adjustments to the system are needed. Ideally they’ll engage with trans people in “stakeholder groups” but if those groups don’t get what they want that’s not a dealbreaker. Patients who suffer or die waiting are unfortunate but hey, the NHS can’t save everyone.

On the other hand, the view of an increasing number- especially young people and trans people ourselves- is that transition is a bit like pregnancy. It’s a process that may require professional assistance to bring to the happiest possible conclusion (whether completion or termination), and for this reason it is appropriate and necessary that the NHS is involved. But whether, how, and when to do it should be up to you. From this starting point there should be as few obstacles as possible: the role of doctors and managers is to facilitate and advise but never delay or deny. Prompt, reliable access to transition is a civil rights matter. I call this view ‘Freedom of Sex,’ a term borrowed from American writer Andrea Long Chu.

According to Freedom of Sex, it is wrong that we have to get permission to transition. It was always wrong. It’s wrong no matter how benevolent those “specialists” claim to be and it would still be wrong even if getting their permission were much quicker and easier than it currently is. What they call “care” is really control.

Pathologization exaggerates and in some cases wholly imagines the risks of transition to justify denying us the right to weigh those risks and choose for ourselves, and there is no place in medicine for that kind of paternalism. Attempts at “reform” only aggravate the situation. The people who have been harmed deserve justice. The people who died on the waiting lists are victims of social murder by institutional neglect and their killers must be held accountable. We do not consent to the power that doctors and managers have over us, and it is a dealbreaker: if they delay and deny, they must be deposed.

We need an informed consent system in which we control our own bodies without needing permission from anybody. This is the ideological struggle Colonel Korn finds himself in the middle of.

It is vital to realise that organisations can embody an ideology even if nobody working in them believes it. I think sometimes when people hear “Organisation X is institutionally discriminatory” they interpret that as “The leaders of Organisation X are bad people.” For example;

“The Metropolitan police are institutionally racist.”

“I’ve met some police officers and they’re lovely!”


This is a mistake. To say that an organisation is institutionally discriminatory makes no comment on the character of its employees, merely the pattern of its outputs. Not everyone who controls trans healthcare is a frothing bigot; again, I have no animosity towards Colonel Korn or his colleagues. My issue is with the outputs of the system they manage.

We are used to thinking of ‘ideology’ as a dirty word, but when I say Pathologization is an ‘ideology’ I mean it in the technical sense. Ideologies help organisations decide what data to take on board, which to connect, and which to ignore. They are, as the name suggests, ‘the logic of ideas.’ Ideologies are like arseholes: everyone’s got one, everyone needs one, but you rarely examine your own unless it goes wrong. (And even then, you’d wait till it got really bad.)

If an organisation- be it a healthcare system, government, or a corporation- is ideologically set up in such a way that it cannot process critical information then it will fail despite the good intentions of the people working in it. This, I contend, is what has happened with the NHS trans healthcare pathway. Its outputs are discriminatory and harmful, contrary to the values and goals of many who work in it, because the system cannot process key information.

Here we reach the crux of the matter and the source of the distrust many trans people have for the NHS. We tell them we are trans, we want to transition. But that information about who we are and what we want counts for nothing unless we also have their permission. The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves. Our lack of trust in that system is just the equal and opposite reaction: they don’t listen to us, so we don’t listen to them.

As long as the system pathologizes us we are never going to trust it. We are going to keep protesting, occupying buildings, submitting complaints, homebrewing, smuggling, and stealing medicine, and fighting it every step of the way until it stops telling us what to do. It’s that simple.

Colonel Korn wanted to sidestep all that and just focus on “the facts” about the upcoming changes. However, as I tried to make clear to him, there are no neutral facts. I cannot communicate facts without attending to the context in which people interpret both their content and importance; nobody, no matter how good they are at communicating, could do this job and achieve the outcome he wants. If I made videos explaining the upcoming changes it would not make trans people trust the NHS more; it would make trans people trust me less.

Colonel Korn’s Bind

The changes the NHS are preparing will maintain and reinforce Pathologization, as I predicted they would in my video. They want to conduct a clinical trial into the efficacy of puberty blockers on treating “dysphoria,” which is the wrong question to be asking and is only being asked now because of a moral panic and Labour’s ban.

They have no plans to offer apologies or restitution for the harm they’ve done. They have no plans to abolish “dysphoria” as a clinical diagnosis, or the invasive and humiliating assessments required to get it. They have no plans to address the infiltration of the NHS by conversion therapists rebranding as “exploratory therapists.” They have no response to the Cass Review being condemned by international medical authorities.

At best, they want to open a few more segregated clinics. Trans adults will remain firmly under their control. Trans children will be denied permission to medically transition entirely.

When I tried to explain all this Colonel Korn became frustrated and tried to interrupt me, which I did not allow. He said he did not feel able to enter an “ideological debate,” even though, as shown above, his job requires him to take an ideological position. He described my perspective as “political” when in fact the opposite is true: the function of critique is to open up new meanings and systems of valuation while the function of politics is to fix and naturalise meanings, which, again, is exactly what his job requires. The fact that he seems not to realise this is probably why he’s good at it: if he was inclined to push back on the terms of value the system adopts he would not be able to play a senior role within it.

Colonel Korn attempted to push back slightly on Freedom of Sex, saying there are some trans patients in the current system who are “really very sick” and need “holistic care.” I took this to mean there are some who have other medical needs, including complex mental health needs. I have no doubt this is true, however it’s a non sequitur. Obviously I want those people to get the care they need but denying every trans person the right to control our bodies doesn’t seem to facilitate that.

In fact it makes the situation worse since, in addition to those complex needs, they’re also having to get help from a system that denies them basic autonomy. Many pregnant people also have complex needs but whether, how, and when to become pregnant is still rightly up to them. Disabled and neurodivergent trans people have been making this point for years and it was disappointing to hear this paternalism in the mouth of the man to whom they should be turning for help. So much for that.

Colonel Korn also said the low-trust environment makes our community vulnerable to panic, misinformation, and exploitation, and he’s absolutely correct. There are private companies out there who claim to provide healthcare but take our money and give the bare minimum. (We all know who I’m talking about.) It would be nice if we didn’t have to resort to such measures, or to buying hormones off the internet. I consider these practices analogous to backalley abortions: the inevitable response to paternalism. People will seek freedom where they can get it, risks be damned.

As for panic and misinformation, I think this too is the result of a system that routinely ignores trans perspectives. There is a brazen pattern stretching back years of the NHS doing wildly out of pocket things, getting called on it, then clamming up rather than apologising and holding themselves accountable.

Consider the following examples:

In 2021 NICE published a review into the use of puberty blockers. It was condemned for asking the wrong questions, excluding trans people, and ignoring evidence. The NHS did not respond.

In 2022 clinicians wrote an open letter condemning NHS England for failing trans patients. The NHS did not respond.

In 2022 NHS England issued a proposal saying trans children would need a doctor’s permission before even social transition- that is, getting a haircut or name change. They were condemned in a joint statement by WPATH, ASIAPATH, USPATH, AUSPATH, and EPATH who called the proposal “unconscionable,” “unevidenced,” “ludicrous and dangerous.” The NHS did not respond.

The Cass Review was internationally condemned for excluding trans people from its governing body, asking the wrong questions, and ignoring evidence. Tory minister Kemi Badenoch admitted that Cass was appointed to push “gender critical” (transphobic) ideology. Other countries’ reviews into trans youth care have come to opposing conclusions. The NHS did not respond.

In 2024, when the Chalmers GIC stopped referring trans adults under 25 for surgery they didn’t tell patients for several months. They later said referrals were “paused” pending a “review” but wouldn’t say who commissioned the review, why, or how long it would take. The NHS did not respond.

In 2024, senior administrators in charge of trans children’s healthcare and the upcoming puberty blocker trial were caught attending a conference hosted by an anti-trans hate group. The NHS did not respond. (Neither did Colonel Korn when I told him this directly to his face.)

In 2024 the RCGP hosted a conference of conversion therapists and anti-trans hate groups. Peaceful protestors outside were maced by police. The NHS took no action and accepted no responsibility.

No public investigations have been held into these incidents and nobody in the NHS has resigned or been punished, and these are all from just the last few years!

There are even more serious charges. The coroners’ reports into the deaths of Sophie Williams and Alice Litman said lack of gender affirming care contributed to their deaths. That is to say, it is a matter of publicly recorded fact that the NHS’ failure to provide gender affirming care has contributed to the deaths of patients. Nobody at NHS England has resigned or faced consequences.

Of course panic, misinformation, and mistrust take hold in these conditions! Of course people come to believe the NHS are making secret plots behind closed doors! These conditions are entirely of the NHS’ own making. Slapping a famous trans person’s face on a new outreach program does nothing to address them. As I told Colonel Korn, if the NHS wants to increase trust they should start by apologising.

But the Colonel expressed his bind to me the same way every other NHS senior official I’ve spoken to has. The Department of Health and Social Care tells the NHS how they have to spend their money. The mandate they get from the Health Secretary tells them what services they have to commission: if it says “Ten more transplant wards,” they need ten more transplant wards, and that’s that. If it says “Spend £90m pathologizing trans people,” that’s what he has to do.

This point bears underlining: every single person I have spoken to in the NHS- from local GPs to the National bosses- told me they are powerless. There is nobody at any level of the organisation who takes responsibility for the state the service is in and the suffering it is causing. Every single person blames the person above them, even the man at the top.

Conclusions: Where Do We Go From Here?

I do not believe this system can be reformed. It must be abolished. In practice, that means every GIC needs to be closed and inquiries held into the abuses that have gone on there; every conversion therapist needs to be kicked out of the NHS; apologies, resignations, and damages need to be given to all those who have needlessly suffered and their families; and a system-wide redesign of the entire pathway must take place with the following axiom at its core:

If someone wants to transition, that’s their business

The result would be an informed consent system that produces better healthcare outcomes, minimises downstream costs, maximises patient trust and buy-in, and- let’s not forget- saves tens of millions of pounds of taxpayer money.

My discussion with Colonel Korn confirmed something I already suspected: we cannot achieve this through the NHS. No amount of complaints, protests, or engagement with “stakeholder groups” will work: they really are required to do what DHSC tells them.

Accordingly, those of us who want trans liberation need to go to the top, to the DHSC. Right now it’s headed by Health Secretary Wes Streeting who shows no signs of embracing depathologization. Quite the opposite.

I have written to Wes and the DHSC eleven times offering to brief them on the trans health crisis, and though the offer still stands it has been ignored every time. Colonel Korn told me Wes has met with all the “stakeholder groups” on this issue and opined that he is better informed on the subject than previous health secretaries, which is of no comfort whatsoever to those of us whose bodies he still controls. I agree with others who study this field that consultations and “stakeholder meetings” have become a form of abuse by the NHS and the government: we’re included nonperformatively – given time to speak in order to legitimise the process of ignoring us.

The Labour Party churn out maudlin statements about how trans people should be “treated with dignity” and “feel valued and respected” but it’s all bullshit so long as we need their permission to do what we want with our bodies. No engagement process that treats cis control over our bodies as legitimate is acceptable. We won’t “feel listened to” just because someone takes a 40 minute meeting with us; we’ll feel listened to when they give us what we’re asking for. The rest is timewasting.
I note with despair that peaceful protest, legal action, and contacting our political representatives have also, so far, failed. But I cannot accept that the situation is impossible. I refuse to believe trans people must always live in a world where someone else controls our bodies. We will not always be second-class citizens. We can start by refusing to internalise Pathologization and insisting on the abolition of systems that produce it. We can grasp the determination necessary to go around those systems.

If you want to medically transition (especially if you are under 18 ) I would advise you to engage with the NHS extremely cautiously. I would also advise that you look into safe and legal options for community care. Most people I know who DIY do it on a patchwork basis- a little bit of NHS care, a little bit of community care- to mitigate the risks, which are real. You do not need anyone else’s permission to transition. You do not need to explain yourself, or let a clinician “get to know you as a person” first, “lead you in exploring your feelings,” give you “holistic care,” or any of the other euphemisms they use for “Not Until I Say So.”

If you are a GP there is a great deal you can do. Currently, prescriptions for trans HRT and puberty blockers are “off-label,” meaning the individual prescriber takes full legal responsibility for the outcome. Some good GPs are happy to take on this responsibility and educate their peers. We salute them, as we salute the homebrewers and artful dodgers who find creative means of getting medicine into the hands of those that need it.

The road ahead is long, but we have never been stronger. For the first time ever we are seeing the emergence of a global collective trans subjectivity. We have always been here, but often isolated and in hiding. Now in the early years of the 21st Century we have made an astonishing discovery:

There are a lot more of us than anyone thought!

Trans people in the UK, France, Germany, Eastern Europe, North America, Brazil, Taiwan, India, Russia, Australia, North Africa, South Africa, New Zealand- more places every day- are thinking and talking about ourselves in similar terms, and making similar demands. This has never happened before. Moreover, cis people are slowly realising they are cis. We really have reached a “tipping point,” no doubt in part thanks to the internet. The bodily autonomy of trans people is bound up with the bodily autonomy of all people, particularly cis women who have also suffered for far too long under the paternalistic medicalising gaze. That’s why I think the Colonel Korns of this world are doomed to fail: they are trying to do medicine and management on a civil rights movement.

The writer of this piece has asked for her fee to be donated to Medical Aid For Palestinians, please also consider lending them your support if you can.
Video version forthcoming, for the illiterate.
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Just trust the science, troon bro.
For years they were claiming that this is the scientific consensus, but now when TERF Island is moving from this "scientific" fad Toob calls it "a clash of ideologies".

On the other hand, the view of an increasing number- especially young people and trans people ourselves- is that transition is a bit like pregnancy. It’s a process that may require professional assistance to bring to the happiest possible conclusion (whether completion or termination), and for this reason it is appropriate and necessary that the NHS is involved. But whether, how, and when to do it should be up to you. From this starting point there should be as few obstacles as possible: the role of doctors and managers is to facilitate and advise but never delay or deny. Prompt, reliable access to transition is a civil rights matter. I call this view ‘Freedom of Sex,’ a term borrowed from American writer Andrea Long Chu.

According to Freedom of Sex, it is wrong that we have to get permission to transition. It was always wrong. It’s wrong no matter how benevolent those “specialists” claim to be and it would still be wrong even if getting their permission were much quicker and easier than it currently is. What they call “care” is really control.
This troon said that it's always wrong to question troonism (it's like pregnancy!), so get fucked chud doctors!
1735040046895.png

We are used to thinking of ‘ideology’ as a dirty word, but when I say Pathologization is an ‘ideology’ I mean it in the technical sense. Ideologies help organisations decide what data to take on board, which to connect, and which to ignore. They are, as the name suggests, ‘the logic of ideas.’ Ideologies are like arseholes: everyone’s got one, everyone needs one, but you rarely examine your own unless it goes wrong. (And even then, you’d wait till it got really bad.)
Ironic, so close to self awareness.

The system denies that we are reliable bearers of fundamental truths about ourselves.
Based system not blindly buying into delusions.

Colonel Korn wanted to sidestep all that and just focus on “the facts” about the upcoming changes. However, as I tried to make clear to him, there are no neutral facts.
No, child, there aren't any neutral facts, they are bad if they are anti trans, simple as is.

They want to conduct a clinical trial into the efficacy of puberty blockers on treating “dysphoria,” which is the wrong question to be asking and is only being asked now because of a moral panic and Labour’s ban.
No need for clinical trials about it, child. Troons already know that it is the best treatment, so just listen to them.

When I tried to explain all this Colonel Korn became frustrated and tried to interrupt me, which I did not allow.
You know that Choob was an insanely infuriating discussant.

This point bears underlining: every single person I have spoken to in the NHS- from local GPs to the National bosses- told me they are powerless. There is nobody at any level of the organisation who takes responsibility for the state the service is in and the suffering it is causing. Every single person blames the person above them, even the man at the top.
"Indeed, Choob. I, a simple GP, am responsible for the lack of trans affirming care in NHS. It's my fault."

I have written to Wes and the DHSC eleven times offering to brief them on the trans health crisis, and though the offer still stands it has been ignored every time.
Oh my God, they didn't want a smug YouTube troon to brief them about troons?! He wrote 11 times!!!

As long as the system pathologizes us we are never going to trust it. We are going to keep protesting, occupying buildings, submitting complaints, homebrewing, smuggling, and stealing medicine, and fighting it every step of the way until it stops telling us what to do. It’s that simple.
[...]
My discussion with Colonel Korn confirmed something I already suspected: we cannot achieve this through the NHS. No amount of complaints, protests, or engagement with “stakeholder groups” will work: they really are required to do what DHSC tells them.
[...]
I note with despair that peaceful protest, legal action, and contacting our political representatives have also, so far, failed.
lol
 
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Yeah, why on Earth would people ever think troons are dangerous lunatics?


Just a load of hateful bigots I guess.
I assume they're talking about the article that was covering how lesbians (real ones) were being pressured into dating hons because most dating apps have a hardline stance against excluding troons.

I guess lesbian voices don't matter unless they're offering unwavering affirmation for men in drag.
 
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