The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Dawdler]

That's a subproduct of the mercantilization of human life implicit in liberal ideology (which in itself is a product of modernity, the same modernity responsible for reducing human beings to cogs in the machine). It doesn't make eugenics any less abhorrent, specially the one that the national socialist government intended on practicing. It does however put into perspective how national socialism was just one of the many evils that modernist ideologies brought forward and not le big bad jews want to present it as, because it affects them as a political class.

I don't know why I can't directly reply to you, but anyway.
I haven't stumbled upon the mercantile development in such a way. It was taught in history class, but in completely different usage.
NigSoc was as you mentioned, just one type of socialism-modernism, a nice gold coating on the frozen turd.
It completely destroyed social networks and turned the whole society into a war machine. National socialism is the same as international socialism and all other religions so far. It has the same elements and same uses.
It's just making people into a cog of the machine that eats kids for breakfast.
Education, kindergardens and so on are all of prussian development for 200 years now and serve the same purpose - to feed the machine.

 

[Chugger]

It's easy to say something is "not sufficient" when I never made the quoted argument. You're the one who keeps bringing up anti-Nazi canards!

I've explained to John Doe numerous times that eg the masturbation machines came from a discredited Holocaust account (Stolen Souls) penned by a gentile pretending to be a Jew. That he continues fixate on such accounts, rather than say, the well documented use of gas vans to kill people at Chelmno https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/19420605-rauff-spezialwagen/index.html shows that cherry picking to a ridiculous degree is hardwired into a lot of these people. If the mainstream story was so easily disprovable one should focus on the "strongest" elements, rather than totally uncorroborated accounts.

 

[John.Doe]

If the mainstream story was so easily disprovable one should focus on the "strongest" elements, rather than totally uncorroborated accounts.

Okay, show me the corpses. Show me 2 million gassed Jew remains, and 2 million remains killed by the other methods, deadly roller coasters, trained bears/eagles, electrified floors, etc. I'm only asking for a portion of what is claimed as the true number.

 

[fresh pair of socks]

If the mainstream story was so easily disprovable one should focus on the "strongest" elements, rather than totally uncorroborated accounts.

The most mainstream talking point about the holocaust is that 6 million jews were exterminated by the Nazis. Why don't you tell us how the jews came up with that specific figure?

 

[Chugger]

deadly roller coasters, trained bears/eagles, electrified floors,

Why do I have to show you people killed by these methods lol, I don't believe people were killed this way.

The bodies of gassed Jews, like I told you before, were burned and then destroyed. In my last post I mentioned Chelmno

In a forest near the Chelmno camp they found 20,000 cubic meters of grave full of "ashes" and "crushed human bones"

The first grave.
[...]The grave has an irregular shape; the width of the northern part can be established at 8 m and narrows by 3 meters towards the south. Its length equals 62 m. More or less in the middle, it is cut by a concrete road of the period between 1962 and 1964. Its irregular shape and relatively insignificant length in comparison with the other graves indicate that the grave was dug by hand.[...]While uncovering the grave we noticed that the earth must have contained some active substances: protective rubber gloves became destroyed.
Collected earth samples were examined by the Karol Marcinkowski University of Medical Sciences in Poznań, Department of Forensic Medicine. Caustic substances in the grave may provide evidence for experiments connected with liquidation of corpses.

The second grave, so-called "włocławska"
[...]Situated about 20 m east of the old forest track, the grave runs parallel to it. Its current length is marked with a stone wall and equals 185 m. In order to establish its actual run, transverse probes were put up, while in inaccessible places drills were made.
On the basis of the drills made, it was possible to state that the clearing where the grave is situated was originally longer: it stretched over 45 m further south. The grave had an irregular width, ranging from about 7 m in the southeastern part, through about 10 m in the middle part, to only 4 m in the northeastern edge. While the new layout was being uncovered, the existence of burned-out objects and ashes as well as crushed human bones both burned and unburned was stated.[...]

The third grave.
Located parallel to the forest wall. On the basis of probing surveys and drills, it was stated that it reaches the forest from the south (SE), insignificantly entering its area. It passes under the forest track, which during the war most likely in this part of the clearing ran along the then forest wall, situated further on than the present one. A stone wall (about 135 meters long), which was to determine the stretch of the grave, is narrower by 2 m than the actual width of the grave. Its total length equals 174 m, width about 8 m. The contents of the grave includes sandy soil with gravel, burn waste, ash, and crushed human bones.

The fourth grave.
It is represented by a 140-metre-long wall. Located between the third and the fifth graves; its presumed location does not correspond with the actual location. The fundamental fourth grave is located between the wall of the fourth non-existent grave and covers the whole fifth grave. Its actual width equals 10 m, while its length is 182 m. It is filled with gray sandy soil mixed with inclusions of burn waste, ash and crushed bones.

The fifth grave
The last grave, or rather a line of pits filled with ashes, was not commemorated with any walls; in the 1960s it was already not discernible on the surface. On the basis of the description by Judge W. Bednarz it appears that in 1945 the pits were examined by him.
The total length of these pits equals 161 m. The stretch is made up of 11 pits, each located about 2-3 m from another. The dimensions of the pits vary from 9x7.5 m to 15.50x8.50 m. They are filled with gray soil with a significant mixture of burn waste and crushed human bones. In the southern (SE) part of the grave the bones found in the pits used to be ground; those in further parts - crushed. According to W. Bednarz, the depth of the pits was about 4 m, and the width 8-10 m. Even now the flora on the pits is more luxuriant, making this stretch more visible on the surface.

The most mainstream talking point about the holocaust is that 6 million jews were exterminated by the Nazis. Why don't you tell us how the jews came up with that specific figure?

Deaths in ghettos and of working Jews were recorded by Germans. To this add the police shootings in the east, German documents spell out more than a million killed this way.
Regarding death camps you just look at the amount of people transported there. In the case of Chelmno that number would be 150- 200 k. Add all together and you get a little over 5 million. This is a conservative estimate, which I would use.

 

[fresh pair of socks]

Deaths in ghettos and of working Jews were recorded by Germans. To this add the police shootings in the east, German documents spell out more than a million killed this way.
Regarding death camps you just look at the amount of people transported there. In the case of Chelmno that number would be 150- 200 k. Add all together and you get a little over 5 million. This is a conservative estimate, which I would use.

Using your numbers, which is being generous, that only adds up to 1.2 million.

I guess you round that up to 5 million, then round 5 million up to 6 and there you have it. I can't imagine why more people than ever are questioning the veracity of the holocaust. The "most documented event in history" relies on fuzzy math to drum up sympathy.

 

[John.Doe]

Why do I have to show you people killed by these methods lol, I don't believe people were killed this way.

So some parts of the Holocaust are fraudulent, but everything else is honest and true, you promise! It was only a lie that one time! Oh, and that time too. Okay, and that part was exaggerated. But the rest is totally true, we just have to believe you!

In a forest near the Chelmno camp they found 20,000 cubic meters of grave full of "ashes" and "crushed human bones"

You brought this same point up earlier in the thread and got completely folded about it. Burned human remains don't prove anything except that some dead people were burned. It tells us nothing about the circumstances of their death - unless you have some other forensic evidence you're hiding, like autopsy reports or toxicology results. It seemed like there was enough unburned tissue to have run such tests, from the way the remains are described. (Which is not congruent with the Holocaust narrative anyway.)

 

[Chugger]

Using your numbers, which is being generous, that only adds up to 1.2 million.

I guess you round that up to 5 million, then round 5 million up to 6 and there you have it. I can't imagine why more people than ever are questioning the veracity of the holocaust. The "most documented event in history" relies on fuzzy math to drum up sympathy.

Chelmno is only one such camp, as I said.

Raul Hilberg broke down the deaths as follows 70 years ago
Death camps:

• Auschwitz: ~1,000,000
• Treblinka: ~750,000
• Belzec: ~550,000
• Sobibor: ~200,000
• Chelmno: ~150,000
• Majdanek: ~50,000

Other major categories:

• Shooting operations (primarily by Einsatzgruppen in the East): ~1,300,000
• Ghettos (through starvation, disease, and deportation): ~800,000
• Other camps (concentration camps, labor camps): ~300,000

So some parts of the Holocaust are fraudulent, but everything else is honest and true, you promise! It was only a lie that one time! Oh, and that time too. Okay, and that part was exaggerated. But the rest is totally true, we just have to believe you!

Some parts are fraudulent yeah, what's your point? Where testimonies are corroborated by documentary evidence or many other testimonies, especially perpetrator testimonies, these things are accepted by historians. Those things you mentioned are one off testimonies and sometimes not even direct, reporting on rumors (I think this is the case with electrified floors).

You brought this same point up earlier in the thread and got completely folded about it. Burned human remains don't prove anything except that some dead people were burned. It tells us nothing about the circumstances of their death - unless you have some other forensic evidence you're hiding, like autopsy reports or toxicology results. It seemed like there was enough unburned tissue to have run such tests, from the way the remains are described. (Which is not congruent with the Holocaust narrative anyway.)

I can understand, from your heavily biased perspective, why 20,000 cubic meters of mass graves full of human ash and crushed bones, near an alleged death camp, wouldn't seem suspicious.
Apparently it's pretty easy to cover up all traces of a genocide, just destroy the bodies and no matter how large the graves are, how full they are of human remains, you get off scot free.

The findings are congruent with Holocaust narrative and I don't know if you'd be able to determine cause of death from burnt tissue that had been decomposing for years

But what's your explanation for the grave site?

 

[Imperial Citizen]

The question that's rarely asked and in fact punished isn't the denial of the holocaust but whether it was justified. from a nontheistic pov, I doubt you would make the case that gypos should exist and offer positive benefits to societies.

I don’t have experiences with the Romani, but I can say that there is no justification for going out and murdering everyone in a certain ethnic group because some of them cause problems.

You are condemned to death because of the crime of being born within a culture. Sure people within that culture have done things to anger others, but you haven’t. You could reject that culture and embrace the dominant one, be the most moral citizen, but your blood is somehow proof of your guilt. That is wrong.

Burned human remains don't prove anything except that some dead people were burned.

Still, 20,000 cubic meters is a lot. A 20 ft long shipping container has a volume of 33 cubic meters. That’s about 600 shipping containers full of dead bodies. What the hell happened there which would have led to that many bodies being burned?

Disease outbreak? Starvation? Worked to death? Executed? If we have to theorize, it’s evidence of massive mismanagement and a failure to take care of people sent to that location or it was deliberate extermination.

 

[oh no its pipkun]

You are condemned to death because of the crime of being born within a culture. Sure people within that culture have done things to anger others, but you haven’t. You could rejoice that culture and embrace the dominant one, be the most moral citizen, but your blood is somehow proof of your guilt. That is wrong.

this would apply to the jews, but pikeys and gyps are something else.

 

[Chugger]

I don’t have experiences with the Romani, but I can say that there is no justification for going out and murdering everyone in a certain ethnic group because some of them cause problems.

You are condemned to death because of the crime of being born within a culture. Sure people within that culture have done things to anger others, but you haven’t. You could rejoice that culture and embrace the dominant one, be the most moral citizen, but your blood is somehow proof of your guilt. That is wrong.

Still, 20,000 cubic meters is a lot. A 20 ft long shipping container has a volume of 33 cubic meters. That’s about 600 shipping containers full of dead bodies. What the hell happened there which would have led to that many bodies being burned?

Disease outbreak? Starvation? Worked to death? Executed? If we have to theorize, it’s evidence of massive mismanagement and a failure to take care of people sent to that location or it was deliberate extermination.

The Chelmno camp was very small. There was no labor camp there or anything. Revisionists posit it was a transit camp for Jews, through which they were funneled east (though they were mostly sent west to this camp). We know from documents that the Jews sent there were those deemed non-employable, elderly, sick, and children.

Revisionists are not going to be able to offer a sensible narrative here; remember also that the bodies were not only destroyed, but the bones ground up, which makes no sense if the burning was done for purely sanitary reasons.

 

[fresh pair of socks]

Raul Hilberg

Hilberg started his research as a way to prove that jews were the largest victim group of all time. He rounded the figures to reach the total he wanted, and provided no evidence to prove how he reached his conclusions.

Still, 20,000 cubic meters is a lot. A 20 ft long shipping container has a volume of 33 cubic meters. That’s about 600 shipping containers full of dead bodies. What the hell happened there which would have led to that many bodies being burned?

That 20k cubic meters is not all burned corpses. The excavators found sand, burned wood, and charcoal when they uncovered the spaces. To say that's 600 shipping containers of dead bodies is disingenuous.

The excavators did not specify the exact distribution of what they found, allowing for wiggle room, much like with holocaust victim total.

How many people were found in these graves? No one can say.

How did they die? No one can say.

People like Chugger use circular logic to turn a pile of ash into evidence. These must be the grave sites of cremated jews gassed by the Nazis. Because they were found next to an extermination camp. It must be an extermination camp, because they are grave sites nearby.

If you read the study, you know that they found bodies that weren't burned or weren't burned completely. That means the excavators could run tests to find out how these people died. Yet, they never did.

There is a reason asking questions about the holocaust is labeled holocaust denialism. So much of the prevailing scholarship fails to stand up to even a basic level of scrutiny.

 

[Chugger]

That 20k cubic meters is not all burned corpses. The excavators found sand, burned wood, and charcoal when they uncovered the spaces. To say that's 600 shipping containers of dead bodies is disingenuous.

Cremated corpses take up something like 1/20th of the volume, so if the graves at Chelmno were chock full of destroyed bodies there would be remains of millions of people there.

How did they die? No one can say.

People can say how they died based on documents like the one I quoted

https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/19420605-rauff-spezialwagen/index.html

"97,000 processed" with Kulmhof explicitly listed

CO is given as the method.

It's obvious to almost everyone that this is how they died, given the clear documentary and witness evidence, so no point investigating cause of death +burnt remains have been decomposing for 60 years and you want to establish cause of death? Laughable

Hilberg started his research as a way to prove that jews were the largest victim group of all time. He rounded the figures to reach the total he wanted, and provided no evidence to prove how he reached his conclusions.

This is just talk, he used evidence to establish totals. In the case of Chelmno, German documents specify 100,000 killed by June 1942, and then there's transport documents, which you can extrapolate from. The Korherr report is an additional data point, specifying amount of Jews in the Warthe before 1942 and after.

 

[Armor of God]

These tired arguments and the laughably idiotic “evidence” have been blown the fuck out for years at this point.

Give it a few more posts and this kike faggot will go back to enlisting AI for his arguments.

Does the JIDF also pay you for the AI posts ? They really shouldn’t.

 

[Bonesjones]

I've explained to John Doe numerous times that eg the masturbation machines came from a discredited Holocaust account (Stolen Souls) penned by a gentile pretending to be a Jew. That he continues fixate on such accounts, rather than say, the well documented use of gas vans to kill people at Chelmno https://phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/19420605-rauff-spezialwagen/index.html shows that cherry picking to a ridiculous degree is hardwired into a lot of these people. If the mainstream story was so easily disprovable one should focus on the "strongest" elements, rather than totally uncorroborated accounts.

Hey look Nessie is back, I mean chugger. I guess you didn't get your humiliation fetish fulfilled nor your JIDF post count up by posting on the new CODOH forums.

Why do I have to show you people killed by these methods lol, I don't believe people were killed this way.

No one cares what you believe nor say, since you have no assertions to prove only the same arguments to regurgitate ad nauseum.

The bodies of gassed Jews, like I told you before, were burned and then destroyed. In my last post I mentioned Chelmno

Hey guys would you look at that jews are made of fairy dust and fly into space to become stars.

In a forest near the Chelmno camp they found 20,000 cubic meters of grave full of "ashes" and "crushed human bones"

No they didnt.

Deaths in ghettos and of working Jews were recorded by Germans. To this add the police shootings in the east, German documents spell out more than a million killed this way.
Regarding death camps you just look at the amount of people transported there. In the case of Chelmno that number would be 150- 200 k. Add all together and you get a little over 5 million. This is a conservative estimate, which I would use.

Back to claiming the Nazis wrote everything down, except the parts that would prove what you want, so they destroyed them, but the Soviets were smart enough to save the damning stuff but also wouldn't forge any of it not even 80 years later on your favorite holocaust blog.

Do you know airports kill hundreds of thousands of people day? They show up then poof gone forever!

 

[John.Doe]

It's obvious to almost everyone that this is how they died, given the clear documentary and witness evidence, so no point investigating cause of death +burnt remains have been decomposing for 60 years and you want to establish cause of death? Laughable

The burden of proof is on you to prove your arguments. The fact that your so called 'studies' don't even do basic analysis to determine how much of the total volume was human remains, forensically test the large chunks they did find, or anything else that could potentially discredit the Holocaust narrative is pretty damning all by itself. Its deception by omission.

Some parts are fraudulent yeah, what's your point?

"Stupid Goy, just because I lied yesterday doesn't mean I'm lying now! You can trust me!"
"...but you literally just lied. How do I know this isn't another lie?"
"Stop asking questions and just believe everything I say without hesitation!"

 

[Chugger]

The burden of proof is on you to prove your arguments. The fact that your so called 'studies' don't even do basic analysis to determine how much of the total volume was human remains, forensically test the large chunks they did fine, or anything else that could potentially discredit the Holocaust narrative is pretty damning all by itself. Its deception by omission.

How would you go about determining how much human remains there are?

 

[John.Doe]

How would you go about determining how much human remains there are?

There are guidelines used by forensic anthropologists developed over decades of academic research, I'd probably start there. That's a freebie for you though, I'm doing all your homework.

 

[Chugger]

There are guidelines used by forensic anthropologists developed over decades of academic research, I'd probably start there. That's a freebie for you though, I'm doing all your homework.

You're the one alleging these guidelines exist, for cremated remains deposited in graves. I don't think they exist. Even for a small grave, this would require extracting the remains, filtering out other materials, and taking many samples. Graves like this don't exist outside of Nazi Germany (because the body destruction was for cover up, not hygienic purposes)

If you want to extrapolate out from 1% of the material that means you still have to go through about 200 cubic meters of material. Sifting through this would be time and resource consuming.

They don't care enough about discrediting your movement to do this. Your movement currently is not a threat to anyone, and revisionists and Holocaust deniers are probably useful boogeymen for orgs like the ADL to drive fundraising from frightened Jews.

 

[Trump's Chosen]

hey don't care enough about discrediting your movement to do this.

Depends on the results. Maybe they don't care enough about potentially discrediting your movement.