2023 Israel-Palestine Armed Conflict

[x3firehexx]

Nice ceasefire, not only did Benji make a fool of himself negotiating both with terrorists and with this old pap biden, but also... Like, what's the point? Gaza is pretty much rubble anyway??? Benji might aswell just finish the job. Jeez

 

[Maori Kiwifruit Growers]

I hope you're right and this is what Trump and Bibi are planning. I'm really disheartened by this deal. Right now I feel like I've been stabbed in the back.

Unironically someone in israel might try to kill bibi over this. Especially when you see this shit coming out of Gaza.

https://x.com/GAZAWOOD1/status/1879866631683256345?t=46_Dsmm9E0HmCqwwcu8M8g&s=19

(take a gander through the page it's good).


The only way to beat people like this is to do what we did to the Nazis and the Japanese, just break their will. Even if it costs flattening the whole strip and forcing them to live in rubble we need to do it. These people need to understand the true consequences for their actions. I understand a few smooth brain people might say "but that's muh genocide" but it's not, it's what urban war against the modern military actually looks like. furthermore, you don't understand that if you give these people an inch, they will come to your country and kill your people. Arabs and muslims don't believe in the nation state they believe in one world caliphate, they will come for you next.

 

[ToEnsureVerification]

If real negotiations had started on the 8th, with maybe some retaliatory bombings here and there. Israel would have taken an L, but would have kept the international sympathy and narrative and more hostages would be alive. Their tourism, internal industry and general economy would not have suffered as much as it did. (because of war and mobilization) and showing restraint would have endeared the world to the plight of the Zionist cause.

But because they decided to go "hell and fire" recklessly and with genocidal intent on the strip while opening a front in the north, they burned through international good will, endangered their Jewish population worldwide, lost a thousand more soldiers (people), their censor office would not let us know how many, And many of their enemies are still there because Israel doesn't have the mass for a decisive victory. Israel "won" in Lebanon like the US was "winning" in Afghanistan in 2007. The enemies can just wait the soldiers out while causing attrition. And the images of what Israel did the Gaza strip will not leave this young generation's mind.

Israel basically did a speedrun of the GWOT. A traumatic event, that was responded to with an excessive and vengeful amount of force and not enough strategic planning. At best, going to war with Gaza was a massive blunder, and at worse it could be a death blow to Zionism and it's secular culture (because the orthodox almost all don't fight and will just escape to another country). Really sad.

The only way to beat people like this is to do what we did to the Nazis and the Japanese, just break their will. Even if it costs flattening the whole strip and forcing them to live in rubble we need to do it. These people need to understand the true consequences for their actions. I understand a few smooth brain people might say "but that's muh genocide"

Israel hasn't been able to break their will since 1948, what makes you think it will now? And genocidal behavior never ends well and is not good PR. If you have the best interest of Israel in mind, I don't think it's a good idea to utter a phrase like "muh genocide" lightly, and maybe do some introspection on what indiscriminately killing people is good for, because that attitude and anger you have now, is what caused the US to lose the GWOT.

 

[Maori Kiwifruit Growers]

You seem to forget that the Palestinian identity only came around post yom.kippur before that they were arabs looking to Retake the land and establish a grand arab socialist state.


The Jews don't take things lying down, especially when involves massive amounts of their own dead. the Palestinians expected Israelis to respond exactly the way you want them to respond, they did not expect Israel to invade and to go into the tunnels. the Palestinians planned the genocidal campaign which would revive them linking up with the West Bank, hebollah invading from the north, Jews and Arabs rioting, all while Iranian and Syrian missiles attack Israel.


it's not genocide because you claim it's genocide. genocide has rules, specifically is in the UN charter. Israel is not conducting genocide because it's not saying that the Arabs need to die. for all the feeling that I might have that is not the stance of the government and thus it is not genocide. if it were genocide then all the Arabs in the West Bank would be dead by now and so would the Arabs within Israel.

what caused us to not accomplish all our goals in the global war and terror was our inability to fight a war that required active involvement. we thought we could fight a mcwar, get in. get our victory and dispose of the trash at the side of the road. War requires active involvement.



Also people seem to forget or not know but the ideological founders/first founders of Israel were born from one of four camps. Eastern European revolutionaries who didn't agree with communism's atheist/destruction of culture angle, nationalist revolutionaries who were rejected from their homelands revolution due to them being Jewish, academics who realized that global Jewish identity/culture was more interconnected and resembled a nation state more than a religion or Ottoman subjects who, following the breakup of the empire wanted to carve out land for their own ethic group like the various ethnic groups of the empire were also doing at the time.

 

[EyeGuy]

Demolitions in Ayta Al-Shab:

Artistic rendering of the planned temple for Nasrallah in the Dahiyeh:

 

[Random Internet Person]

Been looking at posts like @Catch The Rainbow and @GoGoNoJo and Twitter talk about the ceasefire and what I’m seeing is this: it all depends on what happens next.

Does Israel call a Hamas bluff and say the hostilities are back on if Hamas gives a dead body? Does Israel go into black ops mode to eliminate Hamas members to cripple them and their plans to do another 10/7? How vigilant will Israel be to avoid another 10/7?

In terms of the deal, I have to wonder if there were any other prisoners that Israel could offer that weren’t convicted terrorists/jihadists they could have offered Hamas in exchange for hostages, because giving any able bodied fighter seems like a recipe for disaster. Lots of folks are saying another 10/7 is inevitable if the terrorists are released.

Also, folks bring up timing. I think something to consider is that Hamas failed in its two main objectives:

1. They couldn’t get the US (and other Western nations I’m assuming) to turn its back on Israel, since it seemed Biden kept Bibi from doing much of anything regarding an offensive to attack Hamas, while Trump talked about how Israel needed to “fix the problem”. Now the question is of Trump will allow Bibi to act on his worst impulses in regards to Gaza. And if Trump will put pressure on Qatar, Turkey, or any American allies that would allow Hamas to stay in their countries.

2. Hezbollah didn’t join the fight. And that was a big thing of Yahya Sinwar’s plans to go after Israel and ultimately do a Holocaust Final Solution 2.0. Also, since Yahya Sinwar is dead, I have to wonder if That’s gonna be the start of the age of bloodthirsty leaders who won’t stop until every Jew is dead being on its way out.

I only recently discovered the work of the Ask Project - interviews with Israelis and Palestinians about topics related to the conflict. The recent outlook isn't good:

1. Israeli citizens don't care about Gazan civilians anymore, not even children.
2. Palestinians want forever war until all of Israel is destroyed and total Jew removal.

Not a recipe for a lasting ceasefire. But I guess many of the Palestinians thought this way anyway. It's the Israelis that have gained more of a mask off hatred for Arabs since October 7th.

Honestly, Israel supporters seem split between just “Release the hostages!” and those who combine that statement with “KILL EVERY LAST ONE OF THEM!” I’m honestly surprised we haven’t heard of ordinary Israelis and Americans going into commando mode to free hostages on their own.

One thing I saw a lot was that the one thing standing in the way of peace…is Hamas. Mainly because Hamas (and I assume other jihadist groups as well) value the destruction of Israel more than the well being of Palestinians. Maybe the citizens are like that as well. But one thing I’ve seen is that Hamas being called out for claiming victory when Gaza is a pile of rubble and Israelis on Twitter are calling for the Gaza Strip to be decimated and turned into one of Trump’s real estate projects that he did in the 80s and 90s.

I guess peace can’t happen if there’s those that don’t want it.

 

[porkypork99]

got a secret to tell u, last night when innocent gazan were celebrating, they were chanting in arabic that theyre going to kill all the jews.
now that the mask off,the role of playing the victim is over.

 

[Catch The Rainbow]

Been looking at posts like @Catch The Rainbow and @GoGoNoJo and Twitter talk about the ceasefire and what I’m seeing is this: it all depends on what happens next

I've deliberately been quiet about the ceasefire because a person I trust says that there's more to it than people see.

As someone holding Israeli citizenship and kike, I'm pretty ambivalent. Muslims are happy over anything, that's not a sign. I have heard rumors that Trump promised something big to Bibi from this. While Israeli and Jewish twitter were sneeding, a reliable Jewish journalist put this out:

View attachment 6862588

He said this is a complex deal and we arent seeing all the details.

Michael Waltz just said “I’d like to make something very clear to Israelis; if you need to go back in, we are with you. We are 100% committed to destroying Hamas as a military organization.” and Rubio/Hegseth both reiterated their commitment to see Hamas destroyed.

Bibi had a stable govt, this move put his govt in jeopardy and he's currently promising a lot to Smotrich and Ben Gvir not to tard out and leave.


bibi's first wife was not Jewish, bibi himself is not religious. This was a stalling tactic and nothing else.

Thankfully I don't have a job that requires me to have a public opinion about the ceasefire ASAP. There's a lot of details that look bad but have nuance.

For example, 1200 prisoners sounds bad until you look into it and see that it's 1000 people suspected of being Hamas but not certain and 200 confirmed murderers. Not optimal but more reasonable.

I want to see how this plays out

 

[unleashthefreak]

If this ceasefire deal goes through, and the war ends under the conditions stipulated therein, then the war will have been a defeat for Israel.

The war also cannot be said to be a clear victory for Hamas either.

"Winning" or "Closing" a war is simply reaching your war goals (to steal from paradox games).
Hamas's goal is to destroy Israel. The goal of Israel is to survive, to grow, and in this case to recover all hostages.
The direction of Israel as a nation is upward (taking into account classical economic indicators: GDP/capita, inflation, unemployment, public debt). In the same areas, Palestine / Hamas was not good before the war, and now they are much worse. It is a mistake to consider a highly impactful event such as war, great economic depression, a great disaster as a measure of the health of a nation, rather than something that affects it.

If the war ends now, all Israel will have to show for it will be several hundred dead soldiers and a substantially worse reputation among the West.

A "net zero" result from an initial net negative situation is positive.
This is secondary, as it is not only a direct result of Israel, but Iran is weakened, Syria may no longer be a threat, Hamas is practically destroyed, Hezbollah is practically out for at least a while, and in general all the enemies of Israel are shown to be militarily inferior.

In addition, the war has been an utter PR disaster for Israel; anti-Israel rhetoric that was previously verboten has become normalized, 3 new European countries recognized a Palestinian state, the ICC issued an arrest warrant for Israel's prime minister, and Israeli soldiers now fear being arrested when traveling abroad.

European nations expressing public with negative opinions of Israel, are not much different than the same opinions were still held, but private, earlier. Israel is, first and foremost, with the US, Europe only secondary (although I do not want to imply their relations insignificant). Further, the material extent of this negativity is limited- the most significant that comes to mind being France's arms embargo, which even that was just posture, reversed quid pro quo.
The ICC was never recognized by the US and by extension Israel. Even Obama, the president who liked the ICC / ICJ the most, curbed his advances after he realized what positive relations implied.

 

[Random Internet Person]

got a secret to tell u, last night when innocent gazan were celebrating, they were chanting in arabic that theyre going to kill all the jews.
now that the mask off,the role of playing the victim is over.

I feel like it’s like the IRA during The Troubles. On steroids: whatever cause is being advocated for goes hand in hand with the armed militias playing the “your terrorists are our freedom fighters” card.

 

[GoGoNoJo]

"Winning" or "Closing" a war is simply reaching your war goals (to steal from paradox games).
Hamas's goal is to destroy Israel. The goal of Israel is to survive, to grow, and in this case to recover all hostages.

As the old saying goes, war is the continuation of politics by other means. Israel (despite what the far left says) did not embark on this war because it loved death or because it wanted to kill Muslims, it did so in order to destroy the organization known as Hamas - and it failed. The fact that Gaza is a smoking ruin or that Israel killed more than it lost is irrelevant. Hamas still exists. When you fight against cancer you need to kill every cell or it will just grow back again. Israel has not been defeated, but it has suffered a defeat.

Also, folks bring up timing. I think something to consider is that Hamas failed in its two main objectives:
1. They couldn’t get the US (and other Western nations I’m assuming) to turn its back on Israel, since it seemed Biden kept Bibi from doing much of anything regarding an offensive to attack Hamas, while Trump talked about how Israel needed to “fix the problem”. Now the question is of Trump will allow Bibi to act on his worst impulses in regards to Gaza. And if Trump will put pressure on Qatar, Turkey, or any American allies that would allow Hamas to stay in their countries.

2. Hezbollah didn’t join the fight. And that was a big thing of Yahya Sinwar’s plans to go after Israel and ultimately do a Holocaust Final Solution 2.0. Also, since Yahya Sinwar is dead, I have to wonder if That’s gonna be the start of the age of bloodthirsty leaders who won’t stop until every Jew is dead being on its way out.

I disagree that these were Hamas's primary objectives when the launched October 7th. No doubt they would have liked for those things to have happened, but they weren't the focus; The two primary objectives were to scuttle any normalization deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia and to provoke an Israeli response that would harm Israel's reputation abroad. For the time being at least, these two goals have been accomplished - normalization talks have been suspended and (regardless of whether or not you think it ultimately matters) Israel's reputation has objectively been damaged as a result of the war.

 

[Random Internet Person]

@GoGoNoJo since when has Israel tried to have relations with the saudis? Was that part of the Abraham Accords?

As for “Israel’s reputation being harmed abroad”, couldn’t you say Palestine’s reputation has also suffered? Because all the war has done has shown much of the pro Palestine crowd as as being psychopaths who’d celebrate ethnic cleansing and the deaths of innocents all while saying “it’s not beside they’re Jews. It’s because they’re ZIONISTS.” If there’s one thing this war has done, it’s make the cause of Palestinian sovereignty a sign of far left lunacy since Hamas showed what “from the river to the sea” means and with it, the struggle of Palestinians to #FreePalestine.

 

[Scrumption]

After some thought, I have come to the conclusion that this ceasefire is a net loss for Hamas and net gain for Israel.

Since the previous deal (now over 1 year ago) Hamas has been adamant that it would not agree to anything unless it includes total Israeli cessation in Gaza, a withdrawal from the Philadelphia Corridor, and the ensured existence of Hamas governance. This is the first time that Hamas has dropped any of these demands, and two of them, which could only mean that military pressure has been working.
Israel's goals on the other hand are to free the hostages and to neutralize the threat on its border.

What is Israel really giving up?
The important about this deal is that Israel has not given up anything that it cannot reclaim. It may be releasing prisoners, but right now Israel is in the midst of a military incursion in Gaza. It can simply resume the fight and take out some of these terrorists in the process. Some 1,000 additional terrorists cannot turn the tide. Hamas on the other hand cannot simply recapture hostages in its current state and it has a finite supply of them.

I think Israel was aware and is at peace with the fact that a hostage-terrorist swap would be inevitable. It has a huge supply of terrorists it can release, it just needed to get Hamas to the point where it would concede its demands.

An ideal ceasefire for Israel would secure the release of all hostages, but it isn't a possibility at this time. Such a deal would require Hamas to be in a place where the leaders would trade their hostages for their own secure exile from the Strip. For the hostages, the earlier they are freed the better, so this interim deal only furthers Israel along to its goals.

Israelis are complaining about Hamas's videos on social media in which jihadists gloat that they achieved total victory (though they are flanked by miles of rubble and piles of corpses)
ده كلام—It's just words.
They have to claim victory or suffer embarrassment, despite the fact that this narrative directly contradicts their claims of genocide. It was funny to hear them cry genocide for months only to then fill the streets in droves with their "kill the jews" Khybar chant and their "we are the army of Mohammad Deif" chant. It doesn't have the same ring to it since Israel flattened him in July.

Other things to consider: the hostages may provide intelligence on where the remaining are being held; Israel may be able to get critical intelligence by surveilling Hamas when it goes to retrieve them from wherever they're sequestered, Trump admin won't constantly harangue Israel's attempts to eradicate Hamas. Remember Biden before the Rafah incursion?

 

[FedPostalService]

The next time Hamas kick off those 1,000 released “prisoners“ will be the first to get hit by missiles. Hamas being Hamas will do something stupid and Trump will not lecturing Israel about the human rights of murderers and rapists.

 

[Random Internet Person]

@Scrumption you know, your talk of “hostages providing intel” reminded me of a tweet I saw. With replies.

The next time Hamas kick off those 1,000 released “prisoners“ will be the first to get hit by missiles. Hamas being Hamas will do something stupid and Trump will not lecturing Israel about the human rights of murderers and rapists.

I have to believe that Trump being elected played a hand in Hamas making this deal. That and Hezbollah being decimated.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

It's exactly the opposite, actually: Israel exists because the USA provides them with cover and would cease to exist if America decided to sit things out.

Israel's a fully modernised military has nuclear weapons and even before America involved itself in any of its war is defeated almost every single invasion that ever crossed its border Arabs are terrible soldiers and there's a reason for that Arabs were literally not tell the commanding officer important information.
Because in a culture that's leverage wrong movies in Eros weaving remotely successful in any military conflict was due to European infighting.

Also winning is getting your entire region flattened by high explosives and all of your infrastructure blown up your tunnels destroyed.
And you looking like psychopaths on social media contrary to wignettes and nick Fuentes third worldest fake nationalism most people don't like savage behavior of acting like a bunch of monkeys

 

[Harambe]

Israel's a fully modernised military has nuclear weapons and even before America involved itself in any of its war is defeated almost every single invasion that ever crossed its border Arabs are terrible soldiers and there's a reason for that Arabs were literally not tell the commanding officer important information.
Because in a culture that's leverage wrong movies in Eros weaving remotely successful in any military conflict was due to European infighting.

Also winning is getting your entire region flattened by high explosives and all of your infrastructure blown up your tunnels destroyed.
And you looking like psychopaths on social media contrary to wignettes and nick Fuentes third worldest fake nationalism most people don't like savage behavior of acting like a bunch of monkeys

until you had your stroke there in the second line i dunno yeah arabs suck at war

also I don't get the crowing that Israel lost. Really? I don't think they lost. Hamas didn't win, getting some bodybag stuffing from Israel is really a boon for the health ministry of Gaza, they get more bodies to double count.

Israel almost certainly won in this, and if the Gazans feel froggy, they can just bomb Gaza again. Since the Gazans will feel froggy again, and are froggy presently, it's easy to assume they will bomb Gaza again and just vaporize the prisoners they're releasing. The Pallies are feral and stupid. At least they get the hostages back, and literally every one of Israel's enemies has spent the past year dying mad. Now the Pallies are sure they'll get rekt when Trump doesn't give a fuck if they live or die and the Izzies decide lets bomb them since they're feral cunts and launching more rocket artillery.

 

[Sargon's wife's son]

Israel almost certainly won in this, and if the Gazans feel froggy, they can just bomb Gaza again. Since the Gazans will feel froggy again, and are froggy presently, it's easy to assume they will bomb Gaza again and just vaporize the prisoners they're releasing. The Pallies are feral and stupid. At least they get the hostages back, and literally every one of Israel's enemies has spent the past year dying mad. Now the Pallies are sure they'll get rekt when Trump doesn't give a fuck if they live or die and the Izzies decide lets bomb them since they're feral cunts and launching more rocket artillery.

They do this every four years I remember I think 2020 they were doing this and getting the stuff bombed it just usually doesn't end with ground troops personally they should have went in there with death squads.
But you would have to elect the actual death squads party for that people would hate you for a better party like maybe a few years but when there's no more wars people would thank you in the long run

 

[x3firehexx]

Israel's a fully modernised military has nuclear weapons and even before America involved itself in any of its war is defeated almost every single invasion that ever crossed its border Arabs are terrible soldiers and there's a reason for that Arabs were literally not tell the commanding officer important information.
Because in a culture that's leverage wrong movies in Eros weaving remotely successful in any military conflict was due to European infighting.

Also winning is getting your entire region flattened by high explosives and all of your infrastructure blown up your tunnels destroyed.
And you looking like psychopaths on social media contrary to wignettes and nick Fuentes third worldest fake nationalism most people don't like savage behavior of acting like a bunch of monkeys

Pink triangle detected: opinion ignored

 

[ViM]

The USA didn't get involved with Israel until the Yom Kippur war, get your facts straight

Notice how I said "exists", present tense. Israel is currently totally dependent on the US. If the US didn't protect Israel then Israel would, at best, be an isolated shithole like North Korea.

Case in point, the only time Israel tried to "go it alone" between 1967 and 1972 they wound up almost getting conquered by Egypt and had to threaten nukes to get Nixon to save the day.

International relations is actually quite complicated and not like those autistic paradox games. The fact of the matter is that Trump also said that Gaza would not be run by Hamas and Hamas would not be allowed to be a terror group. I think what Trump wants is the photo op and they will allow Israel to go after Iran, and also go after Hamas. This isn't over.

Trump talked tough about the Taliban too, then he cut a deal. He just cut a deal with Hamas and given the choice between a deal with Iran and an unpopular, presidency consuming foreign war I'd bet he winds up cutting a deal with Iran too.

Also, if by "this" you mean the ground invasion of Gaza then yeah, if the first phase goes into effect it's over. The Netzarim Corridor will be totally abandoned and hundreds of thousands of Gazans will be free to go back to the north. The IDF was taking dozens of casualties there even after depopulating the place so to restart they'd have to abandon their positions, let Hamas move back in and then they restart fighting on objectively worse terms than before the ceasefire.

Bro, every single one of trumps appointees loves Israel more than a groyper loves cock. These people are bigger Zionists than other Jews.

John Bolton wanted a war with North Korea. Then Trump went to North Korea, shook Kim's hand and threw Bolton out on his ass.

Trump just imposed an objectively shit deal on Israel and not one of his appointees is doing a thing about it. Lindsey Graham, the biggest Israeli ass kisser in the Senate, was praising it as a win for Trump. One thing the appointees clearly care about even more than Israel is not pissing off Trump, so if Trump says there will be peace then there will be peace, end of.

Also winning is getting your entire region flattened by high explosives and all of your infrastructure blown up your tunnels destroyed.
And you looking like psychopaths on social media contrary to wignettes and nick Fuentes third worldest fake nationalism most people don't like savage behavior of acting like a bunch of monkeys

Algeria was flattened by high explosives, Vietnam's infrastructure was blown up, the Taliban's leaders were killed or captured over and over again. Who won those wars?

The answer to "who won the war" is actually really simple: who achieved their stated objectives?

Netanyahu said he'd rescue the hostages by force, that he'd destroy Hamas and force them out of Gaza. He failed to destroy Hamas and he's only able to rescue hostages because of negotiations with Hamas, so clearly he didn't win.

Hamas said they'd exchange the POWs/hostages for thousands of Palestinian POWs/hostages and that Israeli forces would leave Gaza. If this deal goes through then they'll have achieved literally everything they set out to do. Derailing normalization talks and all the other repercussions would just be the icing on the cake.