Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Ghostse]

the more logical question is "why even have armies fighting each other in person when they can glass the planet from orbit".

anyway it's an entertainment product, rule of cool and all. don't think too much about it.

while the second part is true, Star Wars with Planetary and near-planetary shields at least makes a token effort to address why AT-ATs are packed with the imperial fleet.

from an actual strategery sense, It would have made more sense to have Order 66 be embedded into the Droid/Separatist ranks given Palps was quite literally playing both sides. Call in order 66 and task the nearest separatist capital ship to orbitally bombard the position of every jedi.
If droids had been in charge, its possible Order 66 wouldn't have resulted int 4x as many jedi surviving Order 66 as there were in existance when it was given.

 

[Janusz z Gliwic]

Main issue with inhibitor chips for me is not even that they are infantile plot device that cheapens order 66 but the fact that writers of TCW either did not consider their portrayal of clones is incompatible with order 66 and movies, or straight up didn't care.

With portrayal of clones from movies, chips are not necessary at all. Clones do not possess anything outside of GAR, all they knew their whole (very short) lives was military, indoctrination, discipline and hierarchy, on top of that most if not all are genetically altered to be less independent and more obedient than normal humans. It's very, very unlikely for average clone to disobey as following orders is what they did for as long as they lived.

On top of that, EU contingency orders provide excellent cover for Palpatine's plan, with doom of Jedi hidden in plain sight.

 

[Space Police]

With portrayal of clones from movies, chips are not necessary at all. Clones do not possess anything outside of GAR, all they knew their whole (very short) lives was military, indoctrination, discipline and hierarchy, on top of that most if not all are genetically altered to be less independent and more obedient than normal humans. It's very, very unlikely for average clone to disobey as following orders is what they did for as long as they lived.

The clones barely get any screen time in the movies, so that's irrelevant. And how would the Jedi be able to trust and work with soldiers that are just empty vessels for obedience? The clones need to be able to think creatively, work with, and truly respect (beyond mere obedience) the Jedi if they're to be effective.

rom an actual strategery sense, It would have made more sense to have Order 66 be embedded into the Droid/Separatist ranks given Palps was quite literally playing both sides. Call in order 66 and task the nearest separatist capital ship to orbitally bombard the position of every jedi.
If droids had been in charge, its possible Order 66 wouldn't have resulted int 4x as many jedi surviving Order 66 as there were in existance when it was given.

What would the clones do? Clones are superior to droids in every way, so they'd easily stop Order 66. And the Jedi would expect a Separatist massacre, so that would remove the element of surprise that made Order 66 effective.

 

[draggs]

while the second part is true, Star Wars with Planetary and near-planetary shields at least makes a token effort to address why AT-ATs are packed with the imperial fleet.

There's literally a line in ESB where Vader is informed the shield protecting the rebel base on Hoth is strong enough to withstand any bombardment. It was established by George himself!

 

[Adamska]

There's literally a line in ESB where Vader is informed the shield protecting the rebel base on Hoth is strong enough to withstand any bombardment. It was established by George himself!

Yeah, after the Empire successfully bombed quite a few planets into glass. It was the original method for the Tarkin Doctrine where you enforce rule by overwhelming force. That was one of the big reasons Star Destroyers got made.

The shields were the narrative reason for why they had to do ground assaults to knock them off line.

The clones barely get any screen time in the movies, so that's irrelevant. And how would the Jedi be able to trust and work with soldiers that are just empty vessels for obedience? The clones need to be able to think creatively, work with, and truly respect (beyond mere obedience) the Jedi if they're to be effective.

Because they were forced to take them on as fait accompli and it was either that, try to ram through a draft which would cause more worlds to join the CIS due to Republic high handedness, or get drowned in the quintillions of B1s. They didn't fucking want the army but had to take them anyway, and given that it was clear the CIS had a fallen Jedi as leader they were more willing to knuckle down and deal with their own, which includes leading units into war.

I'm sorry, but the chips are just another example of removing agency from characters in order to justify why they are not in the wrong and to avoid making them do bad things. It seriously detracts from the effort and force of will it took to throw off brainwashing and indoctrination to do what is right, and not what is expected.

 

[draggs]

Yeah, after the Empire successfully bombed quite a few planets into fucking glass. It was the original method for the Tarkin Doctrine where you enforce rule by overwhelming force. That was one of the big reasons Star Destroyers got made.

The shields were the narrative reason for why they had to do ground assaults to knock them off line.

The Tarkin Doctrine was using overwhelming force on a small number of targets would intimidate everyone else so you didn't have to glass a large number of targets. All of this that you're saying is stuff come up with outside the movies, after the movies

Yes the shields were a purely narrative reason so George could have a big land battle instead of a space battle for the second movie, but they still make sense. Ships have shields, the Death Star had shields, why wouldn't there be shields for planets. The RPG sourcebooks and stuff and then the EU novels developed the idea, not every planet had shields, not every planet could afford shields that covered the entire surface, not every planet could afford shields that could hold off any bombardment from conventional weapons, etc.

 

[Symbol of the Chud]

This talk of planetary shields reminds me of that one time where there were official Star Wars What-Ifs and the one where they did "What if Luke failed to blow up the Death Star at the end of a New Hope" which is one of the most hilariously off the rails stories you'll ever read. (Called Star Wars Infinities)
I don't want to spoil it too badly, but...

Spoiler

Stolen my Ketamine, Palpatine has. Die, billions must.

Presumably, shields are only good against blasterfire in most cases, though most people aren't going to be using physical projectiles anyway.

 

[draggs]

This talk of planetary shields reminds me of that one time where there were official Star Wars What-Ifs and the one where they did "What if Luke failed to blow up the Death Star at the end of a New Hope" which is one of the most hilariously off the rails stories you'll ever read. (Called Star Wars Infinities)
I don't want to spoil it too badly, but...

Spoiler

Stolen my Ketamine, Palpatine has. Die, billions must.View attachment 6877287

Presumably, shields are only good against blasterfire in most cases, though most people aren't going to be using physical projectiles anyway.

In the EU anyway, there are ray shields that protect against muh lasers and ion cannons

And particle shields that protect against micrometeorites, space junk, etc.

But when it comes to a ship crashing into a planetary shield, or proton torpedoes/concussion missiles, it's just "shields" that they hit

So really it doesn't matter, shields are shields, they stop things, except when they get can't handle what is hitting them and get punched through

 

[Registration]

To watch this guy experience Rise of skywalker for the first time and being a super fan. Oh boy. Straight up fun

https://youtu.be/VDpQkYQpK5A?si=6n7Xtl-4miGY4tCW

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Main issue with inhibitor chips for me is not even that they are infantile plot device that cheapens order 66 but the fact that writers of TCW either did not consider their portrayal of clones is incompatible with order 66 and movies, or straight up didn't care.

With portrayal of clones from movies, chips are not necessary at all. Clones do not possess anything outside of GAR, all they knew their whole (very short) lives was military, indoctrination, discipline and hierarchy, on top of that most if not all are genetically altered to be less independent and more obedient than normal humans. It's very, very unlikely for average clone to disobey as following orders is what they did for as long as they lived.

On top of that, EU contingency orders provide excellent cover for Palpatine's plan, with doom of Jedi hidden in plain sight.

I remember that even the Traviss books talked about the contingency orders, which ranged from fragging the Jedi if they went rogue, to going after the Supreme Chancellor if he went rogue. If the Jedi got enough senators on their side to issue Order 65, the clone army would've been honor-bound to take down Sidious.

If droids had been in charge, its possible Order 66 wouldn't have resulted int 4x as many jedi surviving Order 66 as there were in existance when it was given.

I disagree. Jedi see organics as living beings. While a Jedi will cut down a couple hundred battle droids without hesitation, he will hesitate if it's organic beings that he sees as alive. Especially if said organics are people he's fought alongside for three years. So not only will the surprise attack of Order 66 be hard for them to defend against, but the Jedi will have a hard time processing the idea of killing their former friends-friends whom they see as living beings through the Force.

Of course, that only works until after the Jedi has shaken off the initial shock. We later see Yoda and Kenobi cutting down 501st troopers like it's nothing, but that was after they survived the initial attack.

What would the clones do? Clones are superior to droids in every way, so they'd easily stop Order 66. And the Jedi would expect a Separatist massacre, so that would remove the element of surprise that made Order 66 effective.

Not really; the clones were trained for absolute loyalty, as the Kaminoans told Obi-Wan. Loyalty to the Republic, not to its Jedi.

So if the leader of the Republic says that the Jedi went rogue and it's time for them to go..........well, "good soldiers follow orders."

I'm sorry, but the chips are just another example of removing agency from characters in order to justify why they are not in the wrong and to avoid making them do bad things. It seriously detracts from the effort and force of will it took to throw off brainwashing and indoctrination to do what is right, and not what is expected.

Not to mention the fact that it removes the drama from the whole Order 66 thing. Remember how the clones felt about killing Aayla Secura? They had to do it, but it killed them inside to do it. Or how about those clones who defied the order and went against everything they were raised to believe? Instant drama. The fact that Filoni overlooked that kinda shows that he's fit for kids' cartoons and little else.

 

[Male Idiot]

Star Wars, Trek, Warhammer all got planetary shields from time to time.

But it wasn't universal.

However, outside of Trek, orbital weapons generally are like nukes. They do devastating damage and are usually less than accurate. Similar to a WW2 naval shelling with tactical nukes.

You may want to use them to make an example, but if you overuse it, you get to rule over a wasteland.

It doesn't make sense for Moff Periwinkle to turbolaser the continent to the bedrock if the tibanna gas mines go up with it.
Or Warmaster Grimdork can blow up Hive Factorius, but it won't be making him any tanks.

It would often be easier and cheaper just to send in your very expendable cannon fodder of choice.

That's before we get to the Republic or the Federation that would have ethical trouble blowing up their own subjects.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

It doesn't make sense for Moff Periwinkle to turbolaser the continent to the bedrock if the tibanna gas mines go up with it.
Or Warmaster Grimdork can blow up Hive Factorius, but it won't be making him any tanks.

They typically use Base Delta Zero or Exterminatus as a last-ditch resort. Usually, it's limited orbital strikes with turbolasers set to minimal power or TIE Fighters/Bombers strafing at the enemy to assist the grunts on foot in taking objectives. They would only burn things down if everything is lost or the local leader is fucking insane. (see: Fyodor Karamazov and Ishin Il-Raz)

Another thing that I've come to hate about how they portray the Empire nowadays is how they make the Empire reward loyalty over competence-as if the Empire is content to be led by a cabal of buffoons whose only qualification is loyalty. If the trail of dead officers that Vader leaves behind is any indication, the opposite is true. Yes, you have exceptions like Ishin Il-Raz, but most of the officers in the Empire are rewarded for competence, not just loyalty. Many officers executed by Vader or the Emperor were fully loyal to the Empire, but their fuck-ups cause disruption among the troops and are therefore answered with death.

Meanwhile, this allows competent but disloyal people mask their ill intentions by being efficient and working their way up the ladder. People like Grand Moff Trachta, Grand Moff Bartam, Moff Kadir, Moff Kalast, Admiral Harkov, Sovereign Protector Carnor Jax, among others, had zero loyalty towards Palpatine and even betrayed him at some point. But they got to where they are because they were good at their jobs.

This is because the Sith culture which served as the tone in the top rewards results, not ass-kissing. Officers ass-kiss Vader and the Emperor all the time, but they'll still get killed if their fuck-ups are there for the Sith to see. Just as how, back in the ancient days, your Sith master doesn't give a fuck that you're trying to kill him, (in fact, he'd be greatly disappointed if you weren't) but if you fuck up in front of his peers and he becomes a laughingstock, you can expect him to string you up and blast you with Force lightning for an hour just so he can relieve his stress.

One thing about the Empire that is always emphasized is efficiency, and a nation cannot be efficient if all it has are butt-kissers who got to their post because they kissed the right boot. In fact, one can say that the Empire valued competence over loyalty too much, to the point where the moment Palpatine died on Endor, your average Moff, general, or admiral went land-grabbing and tried to claim a piece of the Empire for themselves, or they joined a faction that tried to enthrone someone to replace Palpatine. If they were truly loyal to Palpatine's legacy, they wouldn't have pursued such a self-destructive course, and they would've just crowned a friend of his or a relative, then gone back to fighting the Rebels as a cohesive unit.

It's the difference between Nazi Germany and all those tinpot Arab dictators. The Empire in the SWEU is the former, the Empire in Disney canon is the latter.

 

[Adamska]

The fact that Filoni overlooked that kinda shows that he's fit for kids' cartoons and little else.

I actually don't even think he should write for them, since kids are more than able to grasp such concepts. Giving simplistic sloppa to kids and trying to justify it is an insult to their intelligence and ability to understand. Dave should've stuck to writing on AO3 or FF.net tbh.

And yeah, the rewarding competence first is a pretty neat take I never thought about; it'd also explain why the Rebels can sneak in and pull off some interesting results. I would note however that the empire isn't completely efficient; the Empire does do and enforce factionalism, since they do pit their army and navy against each other. It's ostensibly to drive up performance but in practice it does have them squabble a lot about recruits and focus.

It also makes it easier for Palpy to just sit and admire the cutthroat creature he created.

 

[Screamer_2]

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I actually don't even think he should write for them, since kids are more than able to grasp such concepts. Giving simplistic sloppa to kids and trying to justify it is an insult to their intelligence and ability to understand. Dave should've stuck to writing on AO3 or FF.net tbh.

There's kids who can understand complex themes through things like anime, novels, or history books. Filoni, on the other hand, seems to be content to make everything simple, which is why I do not put much faith in his proposed movie project that is supposed to replace Heir to the Empire.

And yeah, the rewarding competence first is a pretty neat take I never thought about; it'd also explain why the Rebels can sneak in and pull off some interesting results.

Exactly. All a rebel infiltrator needs to do is do his job as an Imperial and do it well. That explains how the Rebels managed to get a lot out of the Empire during the war.

I would note however that the empire isn't completely efficient; the Empire does do and enforce factionalism, since they do pit their army and navy against each other. It's ostensibly to drive up performance but in practice it does have them squabble a lot about recruits and focus.

That was on purpose. Instead of having one intelligence organization, Palpatine had Imperial Intelligence and the Imperial Security Bureau compete for favors from him. It kept them divided enough to plot against each other instead of plotting against him. But they were loyal when he was alive, at least, so Palpatine didn't care.

The moment he died, however, that changed. Ysanne Isard, the Director of Imperial Intelligence, practically seized the capital and gathered so much power that some people were beginning to call her "empress".

As for the military, Palpatine put the Stormtroopers above the regular army and navy, because the Stormtroopers were loyal to him alone. Hence why most Imperial ships in the navy, which includes the Death Star, had plenty of Stormtroopers, just in case Tarkin or some other schmuck gets the bright idea of using those vessels to stage a rebellion against the throne. Of course, sometimes Stormtroopers could be bribed to betray the throne, or they could get disillusioned enough to go rogue, but such cases were extremely rare.

It also makes it easier for Palpy to just sit and admire the cutthroat creature he created.

He's a Sith, of course he'd be happy with that.

 

[Ghostse]

And yeah, the rewarding competence first is a pretty neat take I never thought about

They went from Nazis under Lucas to Communists under Filoni.

 

[Male Idiot]

They went from Nazis under Lucas to Communists under Filoni.

They went to morning villain cartoons. I can't think of any real state that fucked up this bad.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

They went from Nazis under Lucas to Communists under Filoni.

Just like how the Battledroids were transformed from a wall of unfeeling, cold blasterfire that would unquestioningly march to their doom, to complete cowards that run at the slightest sign of danger.

They went to morning villain cartoons. I can't think of any real state that fucked up this bad.

Typical Filoniverse bad guys. Killing them isn't a great deed, it's glorified euthanasia towards retarded people.

 

[Ghostse]

They went to morning villain cartoons. I can't think of any real state that fucked up this bad.

I can think of SEVERAL.

Cambodia. China's great leap forward into Cannibalism. FARC. Chile pre-Pinochet. Multiple soviet African states though I'll admit they didn't have very far to fall. Oh and don't forget the CHAZ.

Venezuela has a thread for making fun of them.

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/venezuela-megathread.33019/

 

[Space Police]

Just like how the Battledroids were transformed from a wall of unfeeling, cold blasterfire that would unquestioningly march to their doom, to complete cowards that run at the slightest sign of danger.

Battle droids were portrayed as pedantic, dim-witted disposable soldiers that can get easily outsmarted in the movies, so it's not a flanderization for them to act like that in The Clone Wars when programming has advanced to the point where they'd have a personality. Even B2s, which are the scary iron fortresses, acted like that in the movies.