Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

4e's AEDU concept was perfectly fine, but the rest of the game stumbled because Heinsoo et al. drew all the wrong lessons from 3.5 failures. An autistic table:

3.5 problem4e solution5e solution
Big bads + minions don't really work, minions are basically useless chaffLiteral 1-hp minion monstersNo more +25 to hit or 45 AC
Many monsters have complex entries, but nobody sees what they can do except the DM because they die in 1-3 roundsMassive sacks of HP that take 10-20 rounds to killSimplify the monsters, don't waste ink on powers that won't be used in 1-3 rounds of combat
Absolute caster supremacyHomogenize classesLimit sustained abilities to a single Concentration effect, most buffs last only one combat
Multiclassing breaks the gameEliminate multiclassing in all but nameRemove heavily front-loaded classes, tie ASI/feats to class level. Subclass choices offer some of the flavor players wanted from multiclassing without having 1000 ways to break them.
 
I think the TSR editions had the right idea. When you got to a high enough level, you could (provided your players had the funds) get into domain play. Wizards got a tower and some apprentices, clerics get a stronghold and some soldiers, and thieves get a thieves guild and some apprentices. Meanwhile, the fighter gets to rule over a barony, withdraw taxes from them, and draft them in times of war, presumably in exchange for the fighter upholding his own end of the social contract.
And in B/x & 2e, martials leveled up faster than the casty boys & god-botherers, that was the balance. That was the balance.

4e's AEDU concept was perfectly fine, but the rest of the game stumbled because Heinsoo et al. drew all the wrong lessons from 3.5 failures. An autistic table:

3.5 problem4e solution5e solution
Big bads + minions don't really work, minions are basically useless chaffLiteral 1-hp minion monstersNo more +25 to hit or 45 AC
Many monsters have complex entries, but nobody sees what they can do except the DM because they die in 1-3 roundsMassive sacks of HP that take 10-20 rounds to killSimplify the monsters, don't waste ink on powers that won't be used in 1-3 rounds of combat
Absolute caster supremacyHomogenize classesLimit sustained abilities to a single Concentration effect, most buffs last only one combat
Multiclassing breaks the gameEliminate multiclassing in all but nameRemove heavily front-loaded classes, tie ASI/feats to class level. Subclass choices offer some of the flavor players wanted from multiclassing without having 1000 ways to break them.
You forgot in the 5e table "Putting an OP Subclass or five in every book ensures copies move"

And yeah the 4e massive-HP-tank-serious-enemies was someone went a little too hard on the math to ensure they lasted long enough in combat to be able to use their abilities. Which honestly wasn't as big of an issue as.... by class players had max two dailies, two encounters, and two utilities which may or maynot be useful in combat, and the might have upto three abilities from their gear, and after these powers were expended they were down to at one of two at-wills (three for humans).

There were consumables but unless you knew of an elemental weakness, everythign but Acid Flasks and Alchemist's fire was garbage.
 
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it does, it was literally planned to be played virtually (ironically before the whole roll20 vtt craze started), but the murder-suicide of the project manager put a damper on that.
it's part of the whole MUH WOW CLONE whining.
Really? I thought the "WoW clone" complaints came from the fact that since you basically just got powers as you leveled, you wound up with the tabletop version of How's 642753385367 buttons that you have to manage.

That's another thing that made combat drag, incidentally- past level 7 or so, any combat encounter was rife with decision paralysis because you had so many tools and the opportunity costs weren't clear.
 
>Lancer Stuff
Mekton Zeta+ had it as Structure = Kills(25 SDP/HP), with some optional stuff allowing you to one-shot some mook-suits if they failed a save based on a damaged location's remaining kills.
It uh, also didn't do character levels. I'm sure you can cannibalize it to work with d20-derived systems, since I'm pretty sure WotC cannibalized a similar game from the same publisher for 3e, but here's my long bloviating post on MZ+;
Mecha and Personal combat is based on the premise of Skill + Stat + 1d10 + modifiers vs Difficulty(DC) or against another critter's own Skill + Stat + 1d10 + modifiers. If you rolled a nat 10, you rolled again, adding it, and probably bagging a critical success. You also scored an effective critical if you beat the target value by 10. With mecha, your machine's responsiveness and formfactor modifies your available stat value. A light and whippy scout? Like a second skin, maybe. A big chungus without anything to offset its mass? Might be worse than driving a tank.
Given its mid-80s/early 90s roots, it shows its age in that Reflexes is the stat for combat. Myself, I recommend using the character's Movement Allowance for Dodge, and Technical Ability for sniper-type shots.
Armor worked a little different from D&D derived systems. It's a Resistance-style value that can degrade, depending on how hard it's hit. Basic armor degrades by 1 per 1kill hit, advanced armors may require up to 8kill+ hits to degrade. You could also get some energy-absorber armor, but it was more brittle than more generalized armor.
Powerplants also had Explosion Saves(XS) based on if they were Hot(5) or Cold(1), where if you rolled under the respective value when called for it, it blew its stackpole. This value went up for each hit to the powerplant that it survived.
Then, there was the hit location chart. Regular hit? Figure out what segment got hit(Head, Torso, right & left arms, right & left legs, toss in wings, tails, pods, extra turrets(heads) as needed), as well as subassemblies on really good hits, and cinematic/catastrophic subassemblies & effects on certain criticals.
The main problem most players and referees/GMs will face will be in the subassemblies, which feature:
Weapons. You buy the basic damage in Kills, ranged weapons get a basic range for free. Modify base cost by desired range change, accuracy, rate of fire, special effects. Base total cost = raw space, 1/2 Damage Kills = tonnage. You can fiddle with these values for extra cost. Missiles are bought per each, boolitz by the space, and both of these have a variety of special effects, from paint rounds to thermonuclear cannon shells, and Hands are actually a Quick & Handy melee weapon. You can also do heat sabers, laserwhips, etc.
Variable Weapon Systems. A pool of construction points and a number of pre-sets that can allow you to save weight & space at the cost of having to use only one at a time. Remember the Might Morphin' Power Rangers' little pistol-dagger things? Or Iron Man's palm-blaster/thruster things? Those are VWSs. Each different attack or firing mode, plus the thruster mode, are a different entry in a VWS' portfolio.
Thrusters. Reserve 10% mass for remass/fuel, calculate space & cost off of total tonnage by propulsion type, or use drop-boosters and suffer sluggish controls.
Command Armors. Extra armor, spaces, in exchange for the aforementioned sluggish controls and added cost. See the chobham armor on that one RX-78 variant.
Sensors & suites(basic-ass sensors, radars, magnification, etc), little asides(stereo systems, anti-theft systems, firefighting equipment, etc), weird shit like Remotes(sub-mecha working as your flying fists, cruise missiles, suicide drones, etc), and shields, both of the chunk-o-armor variety(may even come with an armature to position it for you!), and the energy-based type.
Cost Multiplier Systems such as Internal Automation(AI-driven machines, or simply self-aware machines), different ratings and types of powerplants(ICE mechs, fission, fusion, exotics, etc,) Maneuver Verniers & Targeting Computers(offsets the tonnage and formfactor penalties), Combiners(good fucking luck, shit's a headache), self-healing or biotechnical machines, different control schemes(steampunk, exposed(motorcyclist-style), standard, plug-in, VR), and some other shit.
Formfactors. A cost multiplier system if you're making a transformable/variable machine, otherwise just make the listed adjustments to your design. Most impact your motive systems, hardpoints, and recommended servo locations, but a few also impact your armor or melee damage values. Most anything from bikes, cars, tanks, planes, gerwalks, beasts, submarines, ships, etc.
Stupid Mekton Tricks. Wanna go full pants on head? Try Ninja Jumping, Akira-style or grey goo absorbers, turning your robot into a camera or microscope(don't forget mass displacement, or do, you do you), or even building a robowaifu.
Scale. The default scale for any mecha construction is 1:1, or Mekton-scale. This is somewhere around the size of a Mobile Suit or Battlemech. Humans are 1/10th, most cars and pickups are 1/5th, many vessels and big aircraft in the 1:10 range, and starships in the 1:100 range. This is how you can build a dragon the size of a small mountain with this clunker of a system.
 
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Lancer just seems like it would run better as a Coop skirmish-wargame campaign more than an actual TTRPG, its so videogame-ey from a skim of the rulebook.
The current Wargame market facilitates kickstarting random skirmish titles and they could get some extra revenue from selling STLs for the individual special snowflake mechs
 
You forgot in the 5e table "Putting an OP Subclass or five in every book ensures copies move"
We don't talk about Tasha's Cauldron of Power Creep in my household, thank you very much.

In general, I think 4e had fundamentally good ideas, but, like all new ideas, they would have been better after a few iterations. Closest we'll ever get is 13th Age.
 
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Really? I thought the "WoW clone" complaints came from the fact that since you basically just got powers as you leveled, you wound up with the tabletop version of How's 642753385367 buttons that you have to manage.
digital + cooldowns (daily powers etc.) = wow were the main points, with some smaller gripes.
 
And in B/x & 2e, martials leveled up faster than the casty boys & god-botherers, that was the balance. That was the balance.
In PF1 you could just put rogues/bards/dipshits on Fast Advancement, Martials on Medium Advancement, and Mages/God Talkers on Slow Advancement and get nice balance that way.

Edit: Another fun thing is to go all the way back to 1E and limit a mage to his 'active spellbook' by limited them by intelligence. Sure, they have all these spells in tomes, but their active spellbook can only hold so many. That, and you enforce the max pages per spellbook and how many pages a spell takes over.

Another thing to add in was martials on the other side that had been optimized and have them do nothing but bullrush and overrun any mage that was unprotected by a fighter. 3.X and PF1 had some NASTY feat chains. You get a fighter on a mage and suddenly they have to start making concentration checks and all that good shit.

Suddenly the PC fighter is a big deal because he's the only one that can stand against the other side's armored psychopath.

Does the mage wipe shit out with fireballs? Yeah. But mages always were a glass cannon. I saw too many GMs had bad guys and mooks avoid the mage and nobody target the mage.
 
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Does the mage wipe shit out with fireballs? Yeah. But mages always were a glass cannon. I saw too many GMs had bad guys and mooks avoid the mage and nobody target the mage.
A lot of D&D problems are solved by running the game under the assumption that bad guys know what wizards and clerics are. In 5e, when someone dropped to 0 hp, I'd have intelligent enemies continue to hit him (2 hits on an unconscious PC = perma death). Players cried that this wasn't "logical," enemies should focus on the PCs still standing. I responded that bad guys know what a cleric is and that he can restore a downed fighter to being fighting fit with a snap of his fingers, and so "logically" they would make sure anyone who goes down stays down.

Guess what, when monsters know what magic is, whack-a-mole healing isn't optimal.
 
A lot of D&D problems are solved by running the game under the assumption that bad guys know what wizards and clerics are. In 5e, when someone dropped to 0 hp, I'd have intelligent enemies continue to hit him (2 hits on an unconscious PC = perma death). Players cried that this wasn't "logical," enemies should focus on the PCs still standing. I responded that bad guys know what a cleric is and that he can restore a downed fighter to being fighting fit with a snap of his fingers, and so "logically" they would make sure anyone who goes down stays down.

Guess what, when monsters know what magic is, whack-a-mole healing isn't optimal.
This is easier to run on BX/AD&D where character death is expected vs. Anything post-3e where character death is treated a huge fuckup by the players.
I say you can do it on PF but making a new even more broken character than the last one is a reward for the PF grog.
 
This is easier to run on BX/AD&D where character death is expected vs. Anything post-3e where character death is treated a huge fuckup by the players.
I say you can do it on PF but making a new even more broken character than the last one is a reward for the PF grog.

Curiously, there seems to be an overlap between players who can emotionally handle their character getting turned into gnoll food due to a couple bad rolls and players who aren't woke shitheads who throw down X cards and expect you to include nonbinary representation in your game world. My first few months as a DM were a massive weed-out process, but I ended up with a very solid group of players.
 
Curiously, there seems to be an overlap between players who can emotionally handle their character getting turned into gnoll food due to a couple bad rolls and players who aren't woke shitheads who throw down X cards and expect you to include nonbinary representation in your game world. My first few months as a DM were a massive weed-out process, but I ended up with a very solid group of players.
Funny part about 1E B/X is that it's the groups/characters nobody expects to survive that survive.

With a virtual tabletop, there's no fudging dice. Everyone can see the dice rolls. Everyone knows what hit the table.

Seems to make it so players don't feel targeted.
 
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I don't lose my spaghetti over it, but as player character permadying in anything 3e+/PF is a huge morale blow, not because I'm butthurt about Blackleaf dying or w/e but because its sort of a pain to roll up a functional character in especially PF since min-max is assumed.

4e's power system in theory would make this trivial but while 4e is forgiving on stats, even if we assume ruling out incompatible powers for your class options, despite the fact everythings using the same math powers are often not even close to equal. So selection can be brutal especially when you start adding in the ancillary books.

Vs. BX where if your GM isn't having you roll for random spells they are doing it wrong.
 
Man I've been enjoying my latest pathfinder character - vital strike pure fighter. We got to level 8 so far but its probably me favorite way to play the class.
nice balance between hitting and not getting hit, you actually can move and fight in combat, works both on melee and range and having only one attack per turn means it doesn't take much time to roll all the shit during your turn.
If any of you haven't tried it yet strongly recommend.
 
(Sorry if posted before, it's in my draft, so either I didn't post it, or already have.)

I'd say figure out why they want to play it.
I haven't asked, but I'm guessing for the combat and customization. He mentioned playing a few games before and the mechs he played.

if it's for the combat you probably can tack on any lore you want, they don't care anyway.
As I and @Generic Harem Master said, it's not so easy. Certain lore elements are baked in on a mechanical level, and trying to remove them amounts to a serious rewrite (I think, not digged in super deep to the mechanics). It's not like DnD where you can easily swap Ravenloft for Spelljammer and call it good.

The current Wargame market facilitates kickstarting random skirmish titles and they could get some extra revenue from selling STLs for the individual special snowflake mechs
Don't get me started (too late). I noticed this trend with board games a while ago, and now it's infected minis games and RPGs. It's also killed a lot of media. Music, video games, etc.

I get it. Everyone wants to be a dev. Everybody wants their own unique game or setting. Everybody likes the shiny new thing. But it's come at the cost of there being no quality standard, and no common experience. It also leads to situations like in music where a band that would've gone triple platinum had they released in the 80s is now sitting on YouTube and Spotify with 10,000 listeners.

I get that Monopoly and Battleships are shit, but at the same time when you play a new game every week, they start to blend together and there's no chance to really dig in and have fun as every session is that awkward learning game where you're fumbling with mechanics.

Even within the same wargame, you learn the rules, then after a game or two there's a new errata or update and the process starts again. One thing that's pissing me off with YouTube about minis wargames is how every month or two there's a new 40k killer. Trench Crusade, Gundam Assemble, that John Blanche game. Then GW drops a new plastic kit and all the nay sayers rush out to buy 50 of them and complain about them. Then there's me, trying to find players for 40k 3rd edition or OPR and finding no luck.

In TTRPG terms, we (well, I) talked about it to death. Every game has to be 5e or bust even though everybody knows and admits it's shit. Pathfinder, CoC, Lancer. Same thing. Most of these games are a decade old or more, and had (and still have) major issues. But the endless churn of new RPGs means nothing really sticks, everything gets rave reviews, and then after a month it's gone but then there's a new kickstarter... Mothership, Alien, Numinaria, Earthsea, MorkBorg, Tales of the Valiant, Troika, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, they all made a splash then vanished as if they never existed.
 
I always found that mindset odd in a game inspired by a whole genre where it is commonplace for a fighter, barbarian, or paladin to kill a powerful wizard at the end of their quest.

The very fact that wizard is the final boss of the quest means that being wizard is a big fucking deal.

Furthermore, if you actually read the genre, you will notice that at least half the time the wizard is completely undefeatable by mundane strength until the main character either (a)through effort or luck obtains a powerful magic item that allows him to actually do something other than dying like a bitch or/and (b)stumbles upon an extremely specific plot coupon that undoes the magic at a crucial moment.

Well, obviously, neither is applicable in a game, where a wizard can be a party member.
 
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In TTRPG terms, we (well, I) talked about it to death. Every game has to be 5e or bust even though everybody knows and admits it's shit. Pathfinder, CoC, Lancer. Same thing. Most of these games are a decade old or more, and had (and still have) major issues. But the endless churn of new RPGs means nothing really sticks, everything gets rave reviews, and then after a month it's gone but then there's a new kickstarter... Mothership, Alien, Numinaria, Earthsea, MorkBorg, Tales of the Valiant, Troika, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, they all made a splash then vanished as if they never existed.
I'm not disputing your point in the least, but at least we are seeing more "OSR" projects and not just endless "5e" "5e" "5e compatible!" "Includes 5e conversion!". Which is really more of the same honestly but its at least SOMETHING else.

I will also say that the OGL fuckery also spiked a ton of projects that would have used common ground. OSE as a for instance is effectively dead (I mean sort of, it was a reanimated corpse) because the creator is moving to his own Fungal wank system-setting since he was working on his own system anyway and if he was going to take the time re-write OSR to remove OGL he'd rather work on his own project - which I can't fault him for.

I will also say I think the TTG market is contracting post-pandemic with a caveat.
Total are more horses and horseowners int he US & Canada today than in 1880, but its a much smaller % of the population. So from what I've seen is whales/FOMOs/Shelf-Candy types are spending as much more, but you aren't seeing the wide swaths of gamers talking about stuff anymore.
 
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