Unschooling - We don't need no education.

https://www.reddit.com/r/relationsh...who_is_an_unschooler/?st=iwzi04zw&sh=1b8b3a78

Me [40F] with my uncle [42 M], who is an "unschooler" and whose kids can't read at age 10 - how concerned should I be?
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He and his wife believe that the kids shouldn't be forced to study anything until till they express a desire to learn it. So far, their expressed desires include

  • playing Minecraft

  • All about fires: starting, preventing, putting out, evacuating in the event of - only because a neighbor lost her puppy in a fire

  • making friendship bracelets.
When they have no expressed interests, which is 99% of the time, they learn by living. Whatever that means, it does not include learning to identify coins, nor any letters not in their own names, but the kids are happy and outgoing.

Other relatives had expressed some concern over taking this view to extremes, and demand that I "do something." I didn't really understand until I visited for Christmas this year.

The kids were unable to play any board games more advanced than Sorry, couldn't play the video game Animal Crossing without Mom reading the screen to them, or help the cousins "play Santa" by distributing gifts under tree to the proper recipient. They couldn't sound out Sam or identify packages for Grandma, even after it was pointed out that anything beginning with a G was for her. The boy was unable to identify a quarter till his twin said "Its the big one, stupid," at which point the entire world stopped revolving for a prolonged discussion of respecting others.

Uncle and wife call their approach Waldorf-Monte-Sudbury, whatever that means, after some supposedly wonderful educational approaches. They also: talk incessantly about making good choices, insist that kids being kids is natural and beautiful, claim that public schools are abusive (in front of kids who attend them), continue to breastfeed their 5 year old, and frequently mention their genius IQs (both parents, and likely accurate).

They live in a state with very broad homeschooling laws and there is no agency-type recourse here without a level of evidence I cannot provide. Those who have challenged these two in the past were immediately cut off completely from all contact with them or the kids. As I live far away, I'm the obvious next to try.

tl;dr: Uncle and wife determined that kids will choose their own educational adventure, or not; other relatives seem to think I can fix this.

EDIT: I asked them to explain it to me. They claimed that "research" shows that kids who learn late learn just as well, that math at almost any level can be caught up within a year, etc. I asked them, pretending fascination, to send me links, but I'm pretty sure they saw through me. I couldn't keep the skepticism hidden.

I'm back home now, but I am planning to confront them over the phone after the holidays are over. I don't see it going well.

EDIT 2: You convinced me, so I did make a phone call to their state's CPS. I was surprised that they connected me so quickly on a holiday, but it was all downhill from there. Home school isn't illegal, maybe the kids are slow learners, and you wouldn't believe the people who try to report the parents in home school situations. I guess i was seen as a nosy busybody.
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Some replies

I am living what your life will be ten years from now. My cousin had the best of intentions homeschooling her kids, and she had all the facts and figures about how homeschooling would lead to them all being astronauts and curing cancer. I remember I thought it was weird, but whatever. Learning is learning.

But she didn't actually do any of the work. It doesn't matter how great the curriculum is if you leave it in the box and swear you'll start doing it...after the holidays...after summer vacation...after (insert excuse here) so her kids grew up as WoW experts and barely able to add. One of them likes reading, but the other two didn't and were completely illiterate until they were 11 or 12 and the oldest one taught them.

They knew it wasn't normal but they didn't really care because they could play WoW all day and were assured by the parental units they were good at art so they could all make livings as artists or they could take some classes at the community college when they turned 18 if they wanted.

Skip ahead to two years ago. The youngest, now 18, realized she couldn't add columns of numbers and had NO IDEA where to start when she got a practice Compass test. I'd made the offer to let her live with me and teach her when she was younger, but she didn't want to leave home until she had it rubbed in her face that their family lifestyle wasn't sustainable. She moved in with me and she was too far behind to enroll in a GED program, so I had find online math/English/geography programs and sit there while she did them. Let me repeat that. I had to sit at her elbow while she did them because it was too hard.

She got easily frustrated and angry. If something was difficult she'd always been able to quit before, and she was ashamed she didn't know how to do something. We had to start at the very beginning. Adding columns of numbers. Subtracting with carrying. Which states are where. Sidenote: She couldn't follow the directions on a box of mac and cheese and the food came out weird, so she'd declare she 'like it better that way anyway'. She didn't, but admitting she couldn't do something to standard was beyond her abilities then.

Anyway, it took a year of every spare minute of my time (no money for tutors!) and another year in a GED program before she was able to start at a trade college. Now she knows how to cook (mandatory nights in charge of dinner) and she's doing well in college...but I have no kids. I never want any kids. But she didn't have anyone else and I don't regret it, but damn. I wish I'd called CPS years ago before she had to go through all that. The other two are still...doing whatever. WoW and working under the table because they can't get regular jobs without a GED.
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I have 3 children that I got full parental custody of when they were 9, 11 and 13. The main reason that I got custody was because she did not send them to school. I made school a priority and did what I could to get them caught up but it was too late. They struggled because they did not have any math or grammar skills and did not want to work hard to catch up. 2 of the 3 had to get their GEDs, the only reason the oldest graduated is that he is a mathematical genius. He has asbergers and the lack of schooling made it very difficult for him to socialize. To this day my youngest, who is 20 now, struggles to read an analog clock.
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I had a friend in the unschooling movement (she eventually repented when her eldest was about 14 and apparently quite a leader on WoW, so he could read and write...that was the good news). All her plans for him to go to college fell through. He couldn't even pass assessments for non-remedial courses at the local community college. She sent him overseas to further his education (at least now she doesn't have to deal with a now 21 year old with no marketable skills and no high school or college diplomas - just a scattering of units with poor grades from a foreign university).

Fortunately her second child took up music and at least is taking music classes and doing some busking now. I don't know where that will lead (she's 18). The youngest...well, he is on Tumblr a lot, can sort of read and write now, at 16. He has made few friends, likes to cook and wants to get a job in a restaurant some day.
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But the two boys had to have their driver tests read to them 4 times before they could pass it, the two girls at 22 and 16 can't read past a third grade level, the entire family works at Walmart and have no aspirations.

My cousin had to wait until the National Guard lowered their standards to barely nothing before he barely managed to sneak by. He thinks that he can become full Army. He literally is too stupid to transfer to the Army. (Not that soldiers are stupid, but good lord)
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I feel bad for the relatives trying to report abuse. There's nothing that CPS could really *do*. If the kids are being fed, clothed, and not being physically abused, CPS can't really step in. Their resources are stretched so thin that they really don't have the manpower or regulatory framework to address unschooled children.

It's sort of a mystery that the state doesn't care more, though. These kids are going to end up on benefit programs as young adults, won't be paying taxes since they can't work, and will be using the ER for routine medical care since they won't have insurance. It's a huge cost to the public just because some idiot parents decided that sending their snowflakes to school was mean.
 
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P.F.H. said:
Why are they REEEE'ing? it states the truth in a more or less unbiased way, IMO. They should be happy their movement is getting more exposure .
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Because it's not bias towards them, and when simple questions are asked the kids and parents fall short. I agree it's unbiased and that's good. But they are mad they didn't get ass pats.
 
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Bassomatic said:
Because it's not bias towards them, and when simple questions are asked the kids and parents fall short. I agree it's unbiased and that's good. But they are mad they didn't get ass pats.
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Hah, of course. It didn't show the kids being the little engineers, biologists and chemists their Mawhms say they are, and how brave and smart are they for getting their kids out the icky dummy educational system. Silly me!

Why do these people even exist again?
 
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P.F.H. said:
Hah, of course. It didn't show the kids being the little engineers, biologists and chemists their Mawhms say they are, and how brave and smart are they for getting their kids out the icky dummy educational system. Silly me!

Why do these people even exist again?
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It's been touched on before, but it's a mix of the parents being not as bright as they think they are, and good intentions.

There's a lot of legit problems in the school system. People debate on indoctrination on some things, and we always battle about alternative theories, and hot button issues brought up at school. Some people honestly do not want children to know what an abortion is. Not take a side on the debate but just deny they exist. Just one example.

The parents feel so smart to see their's problems with the system, instead of reform their brilliant idea is just skip the system it self. I consider it, if you have a jacket with a hole and it's cold out side, you should probably still wear it if it's all you got. Thankfully in the US we have good private schools, option of home school, etc. So other jackets are on the rack.. These parents are saying well it's not the jacket I want and there's a hole in this one, so I'll go outside naked.

It's kinda an emperors new clothes things, but instead of your balls hanging out, you are abusing your child. One thing my personal feelings have changed about over the years is the importance of socializing with other kids and adults, people outside of the family when young. I think it's important and if I was to home school a child, I'd demand they play sports, join scouts etc. Something where they have rules, an adult to respect who's out of family and people of their peer group to interact with.

If a fear of indoctrination of children is a thing, you need to be active and talk to them about be willing to ask at school and at home. I fully understand in how the US public school system is laid out (not I agree with but understand how and why it is.) lots of subjects are simplified. If something strikes you, talk to your teachers and parents.

I know I had/have a bad taste in my mouth because I felt some topics were so over simplified it was dishonest and bias to us students. I know I'm not the only one, now if you have those feelings and are an idiot the idea of unschooling could strike your fancy.

It's also a hell of a lot less of work than home schooling.
 
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Chan the Wizard said:
A lot of parents seem to think indoctrination is just their kid forming a different opinion. So there's that, too.
There's a lot of batshit crazies out there.
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I'm not sure what to say about that, but it's a shame if having an opinion different from your folks is seen as a bad thing to these jerks.
 
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http://education.penelopetrunk.com/2016/04/27/5-reasons-you-shouldnt-teach-your-kids-spelling/

5 Reasons you shouldn’t teach your kids spelling
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I'll let the Title speak for itself.

https://simplycharlottemason.com/scmforum/topic/anyone-have-a-late-reader/

My daughter is 8 1/2 and is still only able to really read material that is quite easy (ex. “Level 1 I Can Read” Books, such as the “Little Bear” series).
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I have a boy that just turned 10, still struggling with reading complete sentences.
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Also, the person this website is made for, Charlotte Mason
She was a huge proponent of children spending lots of time in nature, and believed formal education should wait until the child is 8-10 years old.
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