Nero Fiddled
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2022
So all I'm hearing here is that mental health conditions aren't a new thing.
Megathread Tranny Sideshows on Social Media - Any small-time spectacle on Reddit, Tumblr, Twitter, Dating Sites, and other social media.
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BIG SHOT Autos
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2023
My armchair theory is that it's primarily dissociation. You have to be extremely detached from yourself in order to self-harm to the point of getting a disability. No person who is "completely here", would agree to this. And, of course, the more harm is done, the deeper is dissociation, because breaking the illusion of denial leads to 41%
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2019
I wonder if it's also BIID as well. Anorexic's see themselves as fat, but we do not coddle them. There have been cases of people who truly believed a part of there body was not theres and needed to be removed as well.
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2021
Cool story bro. Needs some dragons though. Maybe a wizard battle...
NO TROONS
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2024
Trannies love to rebuttal terf arugments by saying "But cis men love trans women in private and have sex with us" .... do these faggots not ever understand how ridiculous that they sound?
What's the point of even mentioning these men who are so ashamed to claim you publicly, that they'll even resort to killing a troon just to keep them "quiet" ?
I love how much Nancy Mace triggers them. Her confidence & pure terf rage this past week just gave me a bigger crush on her lol the troons are so mad that the conservative party are running america again.
Women hurting their feelings is literal violence
What's the point of even mentioning these men who are so ashamed to claim you publicly, that they'll even resort to killing a troon just to keep them "quiet" ?
I love how much Nancy Mace triggers them. Her confidence & pure terf rage this past week just gave me a bigger crush on her lol the troons are so mad that the conservative party are running america again.
Women hurting their feelings is literal violence
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2021
Amazes me how they always whine that they are hated but never ask themselves why.Trannies love to rebuttal terf arugments by saying "But cis men love trans women in private and have sex with us" .... do these faggots not ever understand how ridiculous that they sound?
What's the point of even mentioning these men who are so ashamed to claim you publicly, that they'll even resort to killing a troon just to keep them "quiet" ?
I love how much Nancy Mace triggers them. Her confidence & pure terf rage this past week just gave me a bigger crush on her lol the troons are so mad that the conservative party are running america again.
Women hurting their feelings is literal violence
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You'd think if someone was part of a group that the majority of society reviled as disgusting perverts, and they saw the reactions of parents with their children to them when they're out in public, they'd ask themself what exactly it was they were doing that provoked that revulsion and distate, but Troons are so fucking self obsessed and incapable of seeing things from anyones view but their own that penny never drops.
Its bizarre.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2018
Tumblr is feeling a bit insecure because people are noticing how many troons are into anime:
They miss the point entirely, of course. It's not that anime itself is bad, just that being obsessed with it is a sign of being an introverted porn addict who spends their life on the Internet. Which coincidentally matches quite well with most troons' journey of "self-discovery".
They miss the point entirely, of course. It's not that anime itself is bad, just that being obsessed with it is a sign of being an introverted porn addict who spends their life on the Internet. Which coincidentally matches quite well with most troons' journey of "self-discovery".
- Joined
- Oct 29, 2020
"like trans people are 53% under 35", but it's not a social contagion..
Dolly Brooks
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 7, 2024
Lexi tried but was promptly schooled:
Imagine Katie Ladecky physically overpowering William Thomas AND holding him down long enough to sexually assault him. You’re high as fuck if that actually happened (press X to doubt.) Lexi is accused of not having high enough HRT or not being on HRT long enough to understand:
Imagine Katie Ladecky physically overpowering William Thomas AND holding him down long enough to sexually assault him. You’re high as fuck if that actually happened (press X to doubt.) Lexi is accused of not having high enough HRT or not being on HRT long enough to understand:
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2018
I would be extremely surprised if it were only 53%, if anything.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2021
Being sex offenders.
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2018
Doberbutts:
With this latest round of discourse being "trans men shouldn't complain about being kicked out of women's spaces", I felt the urge to write up a relatively long post regarding the topic, as I feel it is a long tangled mess and involves a significant amount of people simply talking past each other.
To begin, what is a woman's space? I ask this, because "women's spaces" often fall under one of three categories: medical services, social services, and social gatherings. Of the three, trans men need access to nearly everything if not everything included within "medical services" and "social services". These things often need to be considered co-ed anyway, but are still considered "for women" and often are labeled things like "women's health" or "women's defense". Social gatherings- things such as book clubs, concerts, festivals, and other similar outings- can have a nuanced and complicated history when it comes to the inclusion, or exclusion, of trans men.
As an example- I am a binary, gay trans man who has not yet been sterilized. If I become pregnant and need to seek out social services, I must do so via my provider's "Women and Babies" department. I am neither of those things, and yet regardless of whether I am completing or terminating the pregnancy, I must label myself a woman in order to receive care. If I wish to have a pap smear, receive birth control, or investigate my chances of ovarian and cervical cancer, I must do so via the "Women's Health Clinic". I am not a woman, but I must label myself as one in order to discuss sterilization options. Many trans men who have had their gender markers changed prior to sterilization have reported difficulty even booking an appointment, as well as difficulty convincing their insurance to pay for this appointment due to a discrepancy with gender markers vs gendered care. Many have discussed the realities of being a pregnant man, whether they remained pregnant until their child was born, or whether they terminated said pregnancy with an abortion.
It should come as no surprise that the statistics for trans men receiving quality gynecological care are abysmal. It should be equally unsurprising to hear how many trans men have died from botched abortions, untreated miscarriages, infections and cancers of the uterus and cervix and ovaries, and complications during pregnancy or birth. We belong in this space, despite it being labeled "for women", and the only thing pushing us out has done is quite literally what's been killing us.
This is, of course, not even taking into account the numbers of trans men who have been forced to become pregnant via their husbands or families as a means to detransition them, and those who have become pregnant as a result of corrective rape. There is a saying among trans men of my age- it isn't "we all know a guy this has happened to", it's "which of us haven't experienced this? who among us doesn't fear this? who will it happen to next?"
Which brings me to my next point: women's social services. As with women's medical care, nearly everything labeled "for women" as a social service must be inclusive to trans men. Shelters for domestic violence survivors, rape crisis centers, self defense classes, family planning, these are all things that honestly should already be co-ed. But, many times, they are exclusively targeted towards women. I understand why, I do. But with trans men being statistically more likely than cis women to experience the need for these services, it seems a cruelty to close their doors to a vulnerable demographic reaching out for help.
Where should trans men in crisis go? Shutting the door to us without addressing the reason we need to access these resources gives us a single ultimatum: detransition, or die. Go back to being a woman, or die knowing the likelihood that a woman's name will adorn your headstone, and "daughter, wife, mother" will be said in your obituary. Much like the medical services, this incomplete answer has lead many trans men to their deaths. Whether by their own hands, or by their attackers'.
But there are other social services out there that perhaps are not as dire. Women's scholarships, colleges, all girls schools. Girl Scouts, women's sport leagues, gym memberships. Trans men don't need access to these, right?
Well... is the trans man in question out? Has he been living as a man, or is he still closeted? Is it safe for him to come out? Does he pass, or has he just bought his first binder and given himself his first buzz cut? Is he living under the control of his parents, or is he able to freely decide for himself the type of person he'd like to be and the type of life he'd like to live?
You see, I was a Girl Scout once. And, if we are to believe to our core that trans men are men even before they know the words "transgender", this means I was a boy in a girl's space. I didn't know that being transgender was an option for me at the point where my troop disbanded, and another leader to replace the first within my local area was not found until after I had aged out.
But also... I was in 7th grade when my troop disbanded. Two years later, I would learn the word "transgender", and suddenly everything would make sense. Two years later, I would come out to my parents and my sisters. To put this into perspective, I graduated high school in 2010. The Boy Scouts officially allowed cisgender girls and transgender people of all genders to join all programs in 2019.
I was not expelled from my Girl Scout troop. My leader simply stopped showing up to meetings, and my troop disbanded to go our separate ways when leadership could not find someone quickly enough to replace her. But... if this had not happened, I would have been a recently out transgender boy in a girl's social service, still wearing push up bras and frilly shirts because that's all my parents would buy me until I became an adult and moved out and had a job with my own money to re-purchase myself a wardrobe. Indistinguishable from any of the others, outside of what went on inside my own mind.
I would not have been accepted into the Boy Scouts, if Girl Scouts had been taken from me as abruptly as it was from a different transgender boy in the same state I was born and raised. Which would have left me with... nothing. Neither. And the only reason I even joined the Girl Scouts was because I had wanted to join the Boy Scouts and the local troop had refused to allow me, because they had labeled me a girl.
I don't believe I'm the one that coined Schrodinger's Gender, but I do reference it often. In this situation, one is both a boy when it hurts, and a girl when it hurts. Even if that gender label changes by the second, the point is to use your gender and your assigned sex to hurt you.
But then, why do these services even have to be gendered to begin with? After all, Boy Scouts just updated to be The Scouts, and has removed (on paper) the insistence on gendering.
Well... I certainly agree that the majority of gendering these services is at this point a concept that needs to be reformed, but I'm unconvinced that we will be able to completely integrate without addressing the reason they were segregated by gender in the first place.
Women's gym memberships are gender segregated for two reasons. Women and girls- and anyone labeled as women and girls, regardless of true identity- are frequently not afforded the same access to resources as cisgender men and boys. Women and girls- and anyone labeled such- are frequently at high risk of predatory sexual behavior and physical violence. Both of these problems are symptoms of a larger system of misogyny at play, and both of these problems directly affect trans men especially those who have not transitioned in a way that makes them pass for cis men.
Regardless of the truth of my identity, the reality is that I was seen as and treated as a girl when it came to physical fitness, and thus barred from the same activities freely offered to the boys. Regardless of the truth of my identity, I have experienced predatory sexual behavior from cis men as young as 8 or 9 years old, continuing past when I came out and began to transition socially.
If the problem is not addressed, cis women cannot re-integrate with cis men. But, additionally, if the problem is not addressed, the choice still remains clear for trans men. Detransition, stay closeted, or go without.
A common complaint of trans men is the invisibility and erasure our demographic faces. It should be easy to see why this happens. The problem of a misogynistic society is one that continues to this day, and without addressing the problem we cannot hope for success in creating a more inclusive space. At the same time, trans men are being pushed out and isolated as they realize they must make a choice.
As for social gatherings, such as a woman's retreat or a woman's music festival? Of course, it may sound odd to say that a trans man should feel welcome there. But the truth of the matter is the majority of the trans men asking for the ability to stay are trans men who have been within that space for years already, prior to coming out, prior to realizing some things about their genders, prior to taking their first steps as men.
I'm pretty good friends with an older butch who told me that I am the first person they ever told that they were a nonbinary man. This person is in their 50s. They're married. But the wife doesn't like it, and they love their wife too much to cause friction in the relationship, so they keep it to themselves, and they keep quiet, and they don't say anything about being transgender, but in their head they aren't a woman. This person is not a woman, by their own insistence. Should this person be forcibly ejected from their local lesbian community, which they and the wife helped form decades ago? Should they divorce their wife, since that would make her not a lesbian anymore?
What harm is it, truly, to allow this person to stay? Social isolation kills people. The trans man suicide statistics are just as abysmal as any of the others I've mentioned here. Forcing someone to burn 20, 30, 40 years of their lives and their friends and their achievements because they are finally living as themselves is a deeply hurtful and isolating experience.
The majority of trans men asking to be included in these spaces are not trans men like me- who never really jived with the idea of womanhood and distanced ourselves as much as possible the moment we saw the opportunity. They are men like my friend, often existing outside of the binary, often with a deep love and appreciation for womanhood despite realizing that perhaps the label does not fit them as well as they once thought. They often have many years of connection, entire lives spent intwined in these spaces.
What good does it do to chase them out? What harm does it to do let them stay?
A Polite Melody:
I think part of the problem is that people have correctly identified that sometimes the inclusion of trans men and mascs is done as part-and-parcel to the exclusion of trans women. That sometimes bioessentialism is the thing that both includes trans men and mascs and simultaneously excludes trans women and fems from women’s spaces.
The thing is, though, is that the above phenomenon isn’t what trans men and mascs have been asking to have happen when we ask for inclusion. I’ve not seen any push from trans men and mascs to exclude trans women as part of their inclusion. Quite the opposite, many of us go out of our way to mention trans women to specifically acknowledge that they have their own issues in accessing these spaces as well and that we aren’t trying to imply they don’t (which has gotten me a “how dare you compare trans women to men” recently).
And I’m seeing lots of posts to the effect of this one, about de-gender-segregating spaces (though typically less nuanced and in-depth than this op was written with). It would be nice if people engaged with what trans men and mascs are saying instead of assuming we must be arguing for our inclusion from a bioessentialist angle and so trying to exclude trans women and fems.
It would be nice to not be pre-assumed to have nefarious purposes underlying our self-advocation because of our genders.
Doberbutts:
Oh, yes, there was a part two of this that I decided to leave off because it was already long enough, but that was more or less the gist of it.
It's odd to me that us saying we need access to medical care and we are affected by misogyny and we don't want to be forced to walk away from everything we've worked for prior to transition is taken as evidence of us wanting to exclude trans women or evidence of siding with transphobic and transmisogynistic logic.
Outside of medical care, absolutely no where in my original writeup did I say anything about us needing access on the basis of having a vagina and thus being "more woman"- in fact, I stated the opposite within the medical care section. I have not been sterilized, so I need access to care for the anatomy I still have. A trans woman who has undergone bottom surgery, an intersex trans woman who was born with vagina, ovaries, or uterus, or various nonbinary and intersex people regardless of their presentation and gender also need access to this care if they have the anatomy for it. A trans man who has had bottom surgery and sterilization which removes all internal and external gonads outside of the new phallus, and a perisex trans woman who hasn't, don't need this access in the same way. I need this access currently, but perhaps in the future I will not. A friend of mine does not need this access currently, but perhaps in the future she will.
Other social services I've already said should be co-ed. The problem of homeless shelters turning away trans men is often the same problem of homeless shelters turning away trans women. And it kills people- as we've seen with the trans woman found frozen to death on a church's doorstep because the Salvation Army would only let her in if she agreed to be grouped with the men. Detransition, or die. For many of us, death is the preferable option.
I'm glad there are trans girls within the Girl Scouts! I'm glad we have trans women competing in women's sports, I'm happy for the trans women often spearheading initiatives to raise women up from the mire that is societal misogyny! I think the world is a brighter place to have them! In no way do I think that a trans man's requested access should be paired with the ejection of trans women from the same space.
I used to dance at my local rec center as a child. Initially tap, then ballet, then jazz. These classes were marked as co-ed, but there were only girls in my age group the entire time I attended. There were a small amount of boys in other age groups, but never more than one or two per class. Ballet and dance in general is often seen as a woman's hobby, and what boys are present are often assumed to be gay by outsiders due to proximity with the feminine.
I also lived in an incredibly conservative, homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic area. I stopped dancing there before I came out, but if I had come out during my time there, there is no way I would have been allowed to continue dancing as a boy. I would have been told that I was not welcome- if not by my instructor, then by the other parents. And I do not doubt that had any of these boys in the other classes actually been transgender girls yet to realize themselves, they also would have been ejected.
In college I began dancing again, this time with a small group of line, swing, and square dancers who gathered in a local church basement. At times, I dipped my toes into the waltz and the tango. By then, I was binding, I'd cut my hair short, and all of my friends knew me by Jaz and he/him. But I was still living under my parents' thumb- and the people hosting the gathering knew my parents well. So I held my tongue as they separated me into the women's section, exclusively pairing me with male partners for couples' dances, always following and never leading.
And, equally, I would not have been allowed to stay if I had spoken up. And, equally, neither would a friend of mine, at that time convinced she was a cishet man but the rest of the friend group had caught on quite quickly. If she had figured herself out back then, instead of a few years later, if we had swapped places, and I had led while she followed in the dance? We would have been told we were not welcome to come back next week.
Detransition, stay quiet, or do without. If you want to dance, these are your options. You can't be you, if you want to dance with the others.
It would be nice if an LGBTQ dance group equivalent existed. But it didn't, not within reachable distance from me, not 15 years ago. So I could dance with the homophobic, transphobic Christians as someone I wasn't, or I could stop dancing entirely. And my friend could do the same, and watch as I occupied the space she craved, while I mirrored her when it was her turn on the floor.
The thing about women and girls being at risk of sexual predators and not being given the same access to resources? Trans women are included in that! Because the option once again is detransition, stay deeply closeted, or do without. Die, even, if "do without" will kill you.
Schrodinger's gender? The first time I used the phrase was to discuss that case of the trans woman who was unable to get her gender marker changed, changed her shirt in a parking lot, was arrested for public indecency, and then placed in a men's prison. She was too much of a man to change her gender marker but not enough of a man to allow her to be topless in public. She was too much of a woman to escape criminal charges, but not enough of a woman to keep her out of a men's prison. She was whatever gender would hurt her most in the moment. Even if that gender changed sentence by sentence.
I know a trans woman who went as a gay man for a very long time. She did not change her name, but did pursue medical transition. And, honestly, she was always kind of "one of the girls" in the way that many incredibly feminine gay men tend to be. She managed to skirt my homophobic school's bans on homosexuality by pretending it was just a bit, that she actually was a ladies man and that all the girls constantly hanging off of her were her various girlfriends or girlfriend-hopefuls. The girls, of course, knew her attraction was exclusively towards men, but they rallied around her nonetheless.
She still, to this day, occupies gay male spaces. Sometimes she even sleeps with gay men. I don't see much of a point on chasing her out, either. Like my butch friend, she found a group of people who love and cherish her, and she is a bit reluctant to burn 20 years of her life. I think that's fair. I don't see any harm in her staying, or any good in rejecting her for the sin of being a woman where you're expected to be a man.
And it would be lovely, if instead of deciding I'm saying that I think trans men are women or have more reason to be included in these spaces than trans women, I could be listened to when I say "why don't we stop rejecting people on the basis of gender" in the first place. Why is my "I need access to this" taken as "so you need to leave"? Why can't we both occupy this space, together?
With this latest round of discourse being "trans men shouldn't complain about being kicked out of women's spaces", I felt the urge to write up a relatively long post regarding the topic, as I feel it is a long tangled mess and involves a significant amount of people simply talking past each other.
To begin, what is a woman's space? I ask this, because "women's spaces" often fall under one of three categories: medical services, social services, and social gatherings. Of the three, trans men need access to nearly everything if not everything included within "medical services" and "social services". These things often need to be considered co-ed anyway, but are still considered "for women" and often are labeled things like "women's health" or "women's defense". Social gatherings- things such as book clubs, concerts, festivals, and other similar outings- can have a nuanced and complicated history when it comes to the inclusion, or exclusion, of trans men.
As an example- I am a binary, gay trans man who has not yet been sterilized. If I become pregnant and need to seek out social services, I must do so via my provider's "Women and Babies" department. I am neither of those things, and yet regardless of whether I am completing or terminating the pregnancy, I must label myself a woman in order to receive care. If I wish to have a pap smear, receive birth control, or investigate my chances of ovarian and cervical cancer, I must do so via the "Women's Health Clinic". I am not a woman, but I must label myself as one in order to discuss sterilization options. Many trans men who have had their gender markers changed prior to sterilization have reported difficulty even booking an appointment, as well as difficulty convincing their insurance to pay for this appointment due to a discrepancy with gender markers vs gendered care. Many have discussed the realities of being a pregnant man, whether they remained pregnant until their child was born, or whether they terminated said pregnancy with an abortion.
It should come as no surprise that the statistics for trans men receiving quality gynecological care are abysmal. It should be equally unsurprising to hear how many trans men have died from botched abortions, untreated miscarriages, infections and cancers of the uterus and cervix and ovaries, and complications during pregnancy or birth. We belong in this space, despite it being labeled "for women", and the only thing pushing us out has done is quite literally what's been killing us.
This is, of course, not even taking into account the numbers of trans men who have been forced to become pregnant via their husbands or families as a means to detransition them, and those who have become pregnant as a result of corrective rape. There is a saying among trans men of my age- it isn't "we all know a guy this has happened to", it's "which of us haven't experienced this? who among us doesn't fear this? who will it happen to next?"
Which brings me to my next point: women's social services. As with women's medical care, nearly everything labeled "for women" as a social service must be inclusive to trans men. Shelters for domestic violence survivors, rape crisis centers, self defense classes, family planning, these are all things that honestly should already be co-ed. But, many times, they are exclusively targeted towards women. I understand why, I do. But with trans men being statistically more likely than cis women to experience the need for these services, it seems a cruelty to close their doors to a vulnerable demographic reaching out for help.
Where should trans men in crisis go? Shutting the door to us without addressing the reason we need to access these resources gives us a single ultimatum: detransition, or die. Go back to being a woman, or die knowing the likelihood that a woman's name will adorn your headstone, and "daughter, wife, mother" will be said in your obituary. Much like the medical services, this incomplete answer has lead many trans men to their deaths. Whether by their own hands, or by their attackers'.
But there are other social services out there that perhaps are not as dire. Women's scholarships, colleges, all girls schools. Girl Scouts, women's sport leagues, gym memberships. Trans men don't need access to these, right?
Well... is the trans man in question out? Has he been living as a man, or is he still closeted? Is it safe for him to come out? Does he pass, or has he just bought his first binder and given himself his first buzz cut? Is he living under the control of his parents, or is he able to freely decide for himself the type of person he'd like to be and the type of life he'd like to live?
You see, I was a Girl Scout once. And, if we are to believe to our core that trans men are men even before they know the words "transgender", this means I was a boy in a girl's space. I didn't know that being transgender was an option for me at the point where my troop disbanded, and another leader to replace the first within my local area was not found until after I had aged out.
But also... I was in 7th grade when my troop disbanded. Two years later, I would learn the word "transgender", and suddenly everything would make sense. Two years later, I would come out to my parents and my sisters. To put this into perspective, I graduated high school in 2010. The Boy Scouts officially allowed cisgender girls and transgender people of all genders to join all programs in 2019.
I was not expelled from my Girl Scout troop. My leader simply stopped showing up to meetings, and my troop disbanded to go our separate ways when leadership could not find someone quickly enough to replace her. But... if this had not happened, I would have been a recently out transgender boy in a girl's social service, still wearing push up bras and frilly shirts because that's all my parents would buy me until I became an adult and moved out and had a job with my own money to re-purchase myself a wardrobe. Indistinguishable from any of the others, outside of what went on inside my own mind.
I would not have been accepted into the Boy Scouts, if Girl Scouts had been taken from me as abruptly as it was from a different transgender boy in the same state I was born and raised. Which would have left me with... nothing. Neither. And the only reason I even joined the Girl Scouts was because I had wanted to join the Boy Scouts and the local troop had refused to allow me, because they had labeled me a girl.
I don't believe I'm the one that coined Schrodinger's Gender, but I do reference it often. In this situation, one is both a boy when it hurts, and a girl when it hurts. Even if that gender label changes by the second, the point is to use your gender and your assigned sex to hurt you.
But then, why do these services even have to be gendered to begin with? After all, Boy Scouts just updated to be The Scouts, and has removed (on paper) the insistence on gendering.
Well... I certainly agree that the majority of gendering these services is at this point a concept that needs to be reformed, but I'm unconvinced that we will be able to completely integrate without addressing the reason they were segregated by gender in the first place.
Women's gym memberships are gender segregated for two reasons. Women and girls- and anyone labeled as women and girls, regardless of true identity- are frequently not afforded the same access to resources as cisgender men and boys. Women and girls- and anyone labeled such- are frequently at high risk of predatory sexual behavior and physical violence. Both of these problems are symptoms of a larger system of misogyny at play, and both of these problems directly affect trans men especially those who have not transitioned in a way that makes them pass for cis men.
Regardless of the truth of my identity, the reality is that I was seen as and treated as a girl when it came to physical fitness, and thus barred from the same activities freely offered to the boys. Regardless of the truth of my identity, I have experienced predatory sexual behavior from cis men as young as 8 or 9 years old, continuing past when I came out and began to transition socially.
If the problem is not addressed, cis women cannot re-integrate with cis men. But, additionally, if the problem is not addressed, the choice still remains clear for trans men. Detransition, stay closeted, or go without.
A common complaint of trans men is the invisibility and erasure our demographic faces. It should be easy to see why this happens. The problem of a misogynistic society is one that continues to this day, and without addressing the problem we cannot hope for success in creating a more inclusive space. At the same time, trans men are being pushed out and isolated as they realize they must make a choice.
As for social gatherings, such as a woman's retreat or a woman's music festival? Of course, it may sound odd to say that a trans man should feel welcome there. But the truth of the matter is the majority of the trans men asking for the ability to stay are trans men who have been within that space for years already, prior to coming out, prior to realizing some things about their genders, prior to taking their first steps as men.
I'm pretty good friends with an older butch who told me that I am the first person they ever told that they were a nonbinary man. This person is in their 50s. They're married. But the wife doesn't like it, and they love their wife too much to cause friction in the relationship, so they keep it to themselves, and they keep quiet, and they don't say anything about being transgender, but in their head they aren't a woman. This person is not a woman, by their own insistence. Should this person be forcibly ejected from their local lesbian community, which they and the wife helped form decades ago? Should they divorce their wife, since that would make her not a lesbian anymore?
What harm is it, truly, to allow this person to stay? Social isolation kills people. The trans man suicide statistics are just as abysmal as any of the others I've mentioned here. Forcing someone to burn 20, 30, 40 years of their lives and their friends and their achievements because they are finally living as themselves is a deeply hurtful and isolating experience.
The majority of trans men asking to be included in these spaces are not trans men like me- who never really jived with the idea of womanhood and distanced ourselves as much as possible the moment we saw the opportunity. They are men like my friend, often existing outside of the binary, often with a deep love and appreciation for womanhood despite realizing that perhaps the label does not fit them as well as they once thought. They often have many years of connection, entire lives spent intwined in these spaces.
What good does it do to chase them out? What harm does it to do let them stay?
A Polite Melody:
I think part of the problem is that people have correctly identified that sometimes the inclusion of trans men and mascs is done as part-and-parcel to the exclusion of trans women. That sometimes bioessentialism is the thing that both includes trans men and mascs and simultaneously excludes trans women and fems from women’s spaces.
The thing is, though, is that the above phenomenon isn’t what trans men and mascs have been asking to have happen when we ask for inclusion. I’ve not seen any push from trans men and mascs to exclude trans women as part of their inclusion. Quite the opposite, many of us go out of our way to mention trans women to specifically acknowledge that they have their own issues in accessing these spaces as well and that we aren’t trying to imply they don’t (which has gotten me a “how dare you compare trans women to men” recently).
And I’m seeing lots of posts to the effect of this one, about de-gender-segregating spaces (though typically less nuanced and in-depth than this op was written with). It would be nice if people engaged with what trans men and mascs are saying instead of assuming we must be arguing for our inclusion from a bioessentialist angle and so trying to exclude trans women and fems.
It would be nice to not be pre-assumed to have nefarious purposes underlying our self-advocation because of our genders.
Doberbutts:
Oh, yes, there was a part two of this that I decided to leave off because it was already long enough, but that was more or less the gist of it.
It's odd to me that us saying we need access to medical care and we are affected by misogyny and we don't want to be forced to walk away from everything we've worked for prior to transition is taken as evidence of us wanting to exclude trans women or evidence of siding with transphobic and transmisogynistic logic.
Outside of medical care, absolutely no where in my original writeup did I say anything about us needing access on the basis of having a vagina and thus being "more woman"- in fact, I stated the opposite within the medical care section. I have not been sterilized, so I need access to care for the anatomy I still have. A trans woman who has undergone bottom surgery, an intersex trans woman who was born with vagina, ovaries, or uterus, or various nonbinary and intersex people regardless of their presentation and gender also need access to this care if they have the anatomy for it. A trans man who has had bottom surgery and sterilization which removes all internal and external gonads outside of the new phallus, and a perisex trans woman who hasn't, don't need this access in the same way. I need this access currently, but perhaps in the future I will not. A friend of mine does not need this access currently, but perhaps in the future she will.
Other social services I've already said should be co-ed. The problem of homeless shelters turning away trans men is often the same problem of homeless shelters turning away trans women. And it kills people- as we've seen with the trans woman found frozen to death on a church's doorstep because the Salvation Army would only let her in if she agreed to be grouped with the men. Detransition, or die. For many of us, death is the preferable option.
I'm glad there are trans girls within the Girl Scouts! I'm glad we have trans women competing in women's sports, I'm happy for the trans women often spearheading initiatives to raise women up from the mire that is societal misogyny! I think the world is a brighter place to have them! In no way do I think that a trans man's requested access should be paired with the ejection of trans women from the same space.
I used to dance at my local rec center as a child. Initially tap, then ballet, then jazz. These classes were marked as co-ed, but there were only girls in my age group the entire time I attended. There were a small amount of boys in other age groups, but never more than one or two per class. Ballet and dance in general is often seen as a woman's hobby, and what boys are present are often assumed to be gay by outsiders due to proximity with the feminine.
I also lived in an incredibly conservative, homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic area. I stopped dancing there before I came out, but if I had come out during my time there, there is no way I would have been allowed to continue dancing as a boy. I would have been told that I was not welcome- if not by my instructor, then by the other parents. And I do not doubt that had any of these boys in the other classes actually been transgender girls yet to realize themselves, they also would have been ejected.
In college I began dancing again, this time with a small group of line, swing, and square dancers who gathered in a local church basement. At times, I dipped my toes into the waltz and the tango. By then, I was binding, I'd cut my hair short, and all of my friends knew me by Jaz and he/him. But I was still living under my parents' thumb- and the people hosting the gathering knew my parents well. So I held my tongue as they separated me into the women's section, exclusively pairing me with male partners for couples' dances, always following and never leading.
And, equally, I would not have been allowed to stay if I had spoken up. And, equally, neither would a friend of mine, at that time convinced she was a cishet man but the rest of the friend group had caught on quite quickly. If she had figured herself out back then, instead of a few years later, if we had swapped places, and I had led while she followed in the dance? We would have been told we were not welcome to come back next week.
Detransition, stay quiet, or do without. If you want to dance, these are your options. You can't be you, if you want to dance with the others.
It would be nice if an LGBTQ dance group equivalent existed. But it didn't, not within reachable distance from me, not 15 years ago. So I could dance with the homophobic, transphobic Christians as someone I wasn't, or I could stop dancing entirely. And my friend could do the same, and watch as I occupied the space she craved, while I mirrored her when it was her turn on the floor.
The thing about women and girls being at risk of sexual predators and not being given the same access to resources? Trans women are included in that! Because the option once again is detransition, stay deeply closeted, or do without. Die, even, if "do without" will kill you.
Schrodinger's gender? The first time I used the phrase was to discuss that case of the trans woman who was unable to get her gender marker changed, changed her shirt in a parking lot, was arrested for public indecency, and then placed in a men's prison. She was too much of a man to change her gender marker but not enough of a man to allow her to be topless in public. She was too much of a woman to escape criminal charges, but not enough of a woman to keep her out of a men's prison. She was whatever gender would hurt her most in the moment. Even if that gender changed sentence by sentence.
I know a trans woman who went as a gay man for a very long time. She did not change her name, but did pursue medical transition. And, honestly, she was always kind of "one of the girls" in the way that many incredibly feminine gay men tend to be. She managed to skirt my homophobic school's bans on homosexuality by pretending it was just a bit, that she actually was a ladies man and that all the girls constantly hanging off of her were her various girlfriends or girlfriend-hopefuls. The girls, of course, knew her attraction was exclusively towards men, but they rallied around her nonetheless.
She still, to this day, occupies gay male spaces. Sometimes she even sleeps with gay men. I don't see much of a point on chasing her out, either. Like my butch friend, she found a group of people who love and cherish her, and she is a bit reluctant to burn 20 years of her life. I think that's fair. I don't see any harm in her staying, or any good in rejecting her for the sin of being a woman where you're expected to be a man.
And it would be lovely, if instead of deciding I'm saying that I think trans men are women or have more reason to be included in these spaces than trans women, I could be listened to when I say "why don't we stop rejecting people on the basis of gender" in the first place. Why is my "I need access to this" taken as "so you need to leave"? Why can't we both occupy this space, together?
Pretty much all of her complications are based on going with an identity that is at odds wit her physical body. Even she admits that her physical body will win. The same applies to the 'non-binary man' who is biologically a woman, the cishet boy dancer who nce resisted hypnosis, and and the gay man.
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deermeat
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2020
This is how I imagine the logic of a normie outsider. The answer is blatant, a spade is a spade. But they'll keep asking as if that can't possibly be the case.
Remember folks, we evolved to recognize patterns that indicate possible threats. It isn't bigotry, it's basic safety protocol fueled by our biological need to protect each other and ourselves.
goat sneed
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Mar 23, 2022
>this identity is older than Christ
>uses the revisionist term "two spirit" that was made up in the early 90s based on the Spirit of Stonewall march, which was organized by two white gay activists (one of whom was a vocal pedo supporter)
Lol, what a fucking whiner. She wants everyone to treat her as if she were born male, then is surprised that she isn't allowed in services for women only. Notice that she mentions DV and rape crisis centres. This dumbass would have no problem advocating for male trannies to invade female-only spaces, but also wants the same female-only spaces for herself.
Almost like mutilating your body didn't change a motherfucking thing about you. I feel absolutely zero sympathy for any of the shit these weirdos go through. They made their bed.
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2021
I wonder what our grandfathers would’ve said if we told them that one day men would have dick measuring contests about who was the weakest lol. “I’m plenty weak, thank you very much! Much weaker than my little sister even!” Cope, faggots.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2021
Not everything needs to be deconstructed, examined under the microscope, and pinned to a board with a lot of red yard running to psych textbooks.
50% of the time the simplest reason is the correct answer. 49% of the time the reason simply doesn't matter.
Troons ain't the 1% where it does.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2020
I hope this is a joke and not something tranny lunatics actually believe.
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2023
Jesus Christ, that ludicrous, desperate reach at the end to try and make it seem like TERFs making fun of trannies hiding behind animu moeblob profile pics is ackshually a manifestation of their anti-Asian racism.
No, Brian, you're just a cringey, smelly, socially illiterate fucking dork who watches gay cartoons for paedophiles.
Nero Fiddled
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2022
Well I'm sure some of them lurk on here, so perhaps they'll try it and tell us how it goes...
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2023
How old are Jessie and James from Team Rocket supposed to be?
Because I just saw a clip of the scene in which they help dress Ash (who is famously 10) up, and the uploader was begging for him to be given estrogen.
Because I just saw a clip of the scene in which they help dress Ash (who is famously 10) up, and the uploader was begging for him to be given estrogen.