Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Iraq was a military victory that got stuck in a politically untenable situation. Even then US forces still won. Saddam died and his government was dissolved.
I would call Iraq a Pyrrhic victory. Saddam was deposed and ISIS was beaten back. Was it worth all the blood and treasure for the Iraq that we got? But we didn't lose.

We should've declared victory in Afghanistan and left after OBL was killed. Staying for many more years and throwing away money on a fruitless attempt at nation-building for a culture that did not want to change was folly.
 
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Iraq was a military victory that got stuck in a politically untenable situation. Even then US forces still won. Saddam died and his government was dissolved.
Just you wait, NAFOchild!
2 more weeks of meatwaves into the Donbussy and soon T-14s T-90s T-72s T-62s T-54s Donkeys will be pulling down statues of Zelensky in Kiev!
Enjoy gulag, NAFOchild!

I would call Iraq a Pyrrhic victory. Saddam was deposed and ISIS was beaten back. Was it worth all the blood and treasure for the Iraq that we got? But we didn't lose.

We should've declared victory and left after OBL was killed. Staying for many more years and throwing away money on a fruitless attempt at nation-building for a culture that did not want to change was folly.
Issue is that's still a military/"tactical" victory.
It's just a political waste of time.

That's what's being discussed; i.e. the trend to turn political Ls into cases where "hahaha US troops got their ASSES KICKED by le goat hurders!"; meanwhile Russia can send 7 waves of men into the meatgrinder and when wave #8 finally captures a position 1km away from the last position its seen as fucking genius sign of might and strength.
Something that used to take a squad of commandos and a bucket of thermite can now be done with a terminally online neet and a chinesium flying machine. Incredible.
Imagine if the Japanese or SoKors start shitting out their own cheap drones, and if war breaks out start offering animushit rewards to Otakus who KIA the most HvTs
 
Just you wait, NAFOchild!
2 more weeks of meatwaves into the Donbussy and soon T-14s T-90s T-72s T-62s T-54s Donkeys will be pulling down statues of Zelensky in Kiev!
Enjoy gulag, NAFOchild!
Lmao. Thinking about it Ukraine really is Russia's Iraq. Except it's breaking their backs in more than just a political sense.
 


Not sure if this was posted, but POTUS was interviewed by Brett Baier of Fox and his words on Ukraine start at 2.50.

U.S. President Donald Trump suggested that Ukraine may or may not lose its sovereignty to Russia, adding he wants compensation for the provided U.S. aid regardless of how the war ends, he said in an interview with Fox News published on Feb. 10.

"They (Ukraine) may make a deal. They may not make a deal. They may be Russian someday, or they may not be Russian someday. But we’re going to have all this money in (Ukraine) and I say, I want it back," Trump said in an interview with Fox News host Bret Baier.

The U.S. president has repeatedly pledged to broker a swift peace deal to end the full-scale war nearing its third anniversary, claiming that the conflict would have never happened if he had been in office in 2022.

Following up on his earlier proposition of ensuring the U.S. support for Ukraine in exchange for rare earth minerals, Trump claimed that Kyiv has "essentially agreed" to a deal on a $500 billion resource deal.

"I told them that I want the equivalent of like $500 billion worth of rare earth (minerals), and they’ve essentially agreed to do that," the U.S. president said.

Ukraine has already signaled it is open to developing a partnership in resource extraction with the U.S. and other partners in exchange for security guarantees, but details on such a deal remain murky.

In the interview, Trump again claimed that the U.S. had provided more support to Ukraine than European partners, placing Washington's contribution to over $300 billion....

Kyiv Independent reported on it (original link). The claim that the US has expended $300bn and Europe $100bn comes in the context of a short rant on NATO military spending which is not wholly unreasonable. Most European countries (not all obviously) and Canada trimmed their militaries to the bone, expecting the US to defend them, and the situation is such that only the US has a truly independent expeditionary military capability. France, the UK, perhaps Poland, Sweden to an extent (think Bofors, Saab, Grippen etc. sustaining the defense of a country which was an armed neutral before Putin necessitated NATO membership) are not too bad, but overall the picture is of coasting along on a cushion provided by US military spending.

Kyiv Independent does note that Trump's stats are faulty, but the main point I think that can be taken is that Trump seems engaged, if a bit careless in his language. A proposed rare earths deal suggests support will not end if Putin doesn't want to reasonable.

The U.S. Congress has allocated over $170 billion to Ukraine since the outbreak of the full-scale war in 2022, which included the provision of over $60 billion worth of military support. President Volodymyr Zelensky claimed last month that less than half of that assistance arrived in Ukraine.

The EU and its member countries have made available $145 billion in financial, military, and humanitarian assistance during the full-scale war.

The linked bit about only half the aid reaching Ukraine relates to costs like US military or US private freighting eating into the allocation despite Ukraine offering to provide its own transport. Still half is okay given that very little of the allocation had reached Ukraine until the last weeks of the Biden Presidency.

tweet.jpg

A Ukrainian reaction. Whatever works.
 
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Oh no. Tucker has a OPINION. He's allowed to have that. Also USAID was a fucking ponzi scheme funding trannies. Calm down.
TBCF its a dumb opinion. But I never see this "muh america muh traitors" when Biden was having sitdowns with BLM grifters so the criticism all rings quite hollow to me.

USAID has done some good, but in the CIA's quest for status-as-cover opportunities someone decided that "Helping men invert their dicks" and "teaching people its ok to eat da poo poo" was more important than trying to keep people from starving en-mass or actually improving the conditions in the country for non-faggots. Plus very clear grift for the relatives of politicians and political backers.

The Iraq war is a perfect example of this. The US, with an undersized force, was still able to conquer Iraq and topple Saddam in under a month with minimal casualties. The problem that lead to the following shitshow was political; stand down orders during the looting, Rumsfeld refusing to provide the coalition with adequate strength for occupation, and the CPA passing fucking awful orders that antagonized the population.
Plus the complete misunderstanding of what it would take to secure Iraq and stop them from killing each other. Or lack of willingness to just say "I'm closing this door & locking it, I'll be back in an hour to negotiate with the survivors".

Their perspective of the entire conflict is probably still deeply rooted in the sensationalist stories that were massively peddled in the 2000s by fear-mongering entities like Fox News and CNN to keep their ratings high. The way that they were reporting it, you would have thought that tens of thousands of U.S. soldiers were being gunned down every week in the streets as the nation was just this close to collapsing! The "dull" reality of the area being turned into a background babysitting job by late 2004, with less than a dozen casualties each year, was one seldom heard on the major news channels.
This is hardly a new problem. To go back to what started this tangent, If you read reports from Hue, they talk about constant American causualties trying to take already abandoned and deserted NVA positions. American soldiers left under constant lethal sniper and mortar fire. To hear the narrative, it just sounds like an endless meatgrinder as the outnumbered Americans and ARVN, completely unprepared died endlessly in desperate attempts to stem the relentless NVA advance.

Then you look at the actual numbers:
U.S.: 147 killed, 857 wounded
ARVN: 452 killed and 2,123 wounded
NVA: An estimated 32,000 killed

and realize the NVA estimate is very likely an extreme under reporting. Almost 10 to 1 kills on a battle field where the NVA had near total surprise and massively outnumbered the enemy.

Again, I want to state and be clear with my position: Vietnam was an absolute waste and really shouldn't have ever been fought - Ike should have told the Frogs to go get fucked, and JFK should have repeated it but louder. And while I think its very clear the north could have been driven to jungle insurgency (and maybe not even that since South Vietnam didn't have the qualms about doing the ethnic cleansing needed to terminate an insurgency) I don't think it would have been worth the extra 50,000-100,000 american lives to have made it happen.
But I also feel that JFK & LBJ, and Nixon to a degree, should be remembered as spineless traitors for refusing to allow American & ARVN forces north of the 17th when it was clear the NVA wouldn't respect the line either.

Why is it that when people go to shit up this thread, they all inevitably start sperging about Vietnam?
Because its the last war the US "lost", or more precisely didn't very clearly tactically crush its opponent.

Iraq and Afghanistan were boondongles wasteful in human life and cash/resouces which were also hamstrung by feckless politicians, but the US completely, totally, and decisively crushed organized resistance in a spectacular fashion within weeks. In Vietnam, because not even LB "Big Dick" Johnson dared risk another Korea-level PR situation, the NVA/Vietcong despite coming out on the the short end of the stick in virtually every encounter was never slaughtered wholesale in the streets of Hanoi, so the anti-American types jerk off raw to it. Without, as is common with America Bad, doing any sort of research or investigation into if the popular narrative is true.

Hollywood-style Vietnam war movies are cool. Never seen a cool movie about Russians in Afghanistan and doubt anyone in either thread knows single good movie about that era.
The Beast
 
TBCF its a dumb opinion. But I never see this "muh america muh traitors" when Biden was having sitdowns with BLM grifters so the criticism all rings quite hollow to me.
I never said the opinion was good. I'm saying he's allowed to have it. That's the shit Murica was built on, retardation. That's why it's great.
USAID has done some good, but in the CIA's quest for status-as-cover opportunities someone decided that "Helping men invert their dicks" and "teaching people its ok to eat da poo poo" was more important than trying to keep people from starving en-mass or actually improving the conditions in the country for non-faggots. Plus very clear grift for the relatives of politicians and political backers
If USAID did it's job and not pay out 100k for trans ballerinas, nobody would give a shit, nobody. It didn't so now its facing a existence crisis. If it just did its thing of getting money to military groups and starving kids, people would be happy.
 
Why the fuck were we ever terrified of a hot war with guys this stupid? God, I can just envision the comedy magazine joke headlines now - "KGB Discovers Top Secret American Battle Plan: Do Nothing".
LockMart needed us to scared of them or else we wouldn't have F-22s.

Insert the usual copy pasta about how in the struggle of America vs Russia, Russia has lost its flag ship, 25% of the black sea fleet, multiple refineries, been reduced to making the T-80 and T-62 their main tanks, run out of BMPs, and lost well over 100,000 soldiers.
America has yet to actually send any combat forces.

1. It’s opinion he states as fact. That if you don’t believe it you are wrong and the opposition.
2. It is one of many, many “opinions” the tard has had, each of them consistently in line with the Russian propaganda machine, to the point he soy faced at a Russian shopping cart.

I understand that when you’re ingrained in an “us vs them” mentality it’s very difficult to step back and criticize the people you think are on your side. Let me help you out: Tucker does not give a solitary fuck about you or America. His entire objective is to score ratings and make money. He is the citizen that welcomes the invader in with open arms because it simply means they just pay him in a new currency. Don’t defend him. You will quickly find yourself sitting amongst vipers as all the good ones are outed. At the rate he’s going, in the history books (if he even scores a footnote) he’ll be reviled as a propagandist.
Solid agree. I say people are idiots for following a politician's rhetoric, but that doesn't apply to a talking head like Tucker - all he is is what he says. And what he is right now is proof of the dangers of simply adopting a "what the other side does is bad" stance.

You can see the effect in this thread too. When someone says something bad about Trump, they get downvoted and attacked with nonsense. Whether it is sensible or plainly obviously true does not matter whatsoever, the response is the same. It's identical to the way the vatniggers react to information that doesn't conform to their echo-chamber.
No you can see in this thread when posters go full retard and repost every trump-critical piece of clickbait they can find about Trump because he's not mean enough to Elon or w/e the issue is this week, they get fact checked and told to stop being retards.
Because those posters are never in here shit-talking Scholz despite him ACTUALLY pulling military Aid, to say nothing of the hundreds of billions of natural gas they bought from their greatest threat, laughing at warnings about it. They are never in here with Macron's suport being dwarfed by the US and UK on any metric. No one points out the Dutch are doing nothing, or while Denmark FINALLY released their F-16s they wanted to get paid for them (by the US)
No, Its only America and Americans who are to blame, not his own Europoor fellows for gutting their militaries so they can import a bunch of moslem yoofs.

The undeserved Eurocuck smug superiority is something that will be quashed whereever it shows up.

Come on man, that's being extreme. Just because you get neg rated for sperging about trump now and then doesn't mean this is some scary MAGA ECHO CHAMBER. From what I've seen in this thread is that no one (including myself) thinks it's novel or interesting to go after Trump like we're online MSNBC commentators based off of shitty hearsay and bad reporting.

We've seen 8 years of it going on 9 and it's tedious. Criticise him for real shit he does wrong/badly, not imaginary things. If he turned around and said 'fuck Ukraine, Russia rules we're done supporting them and your waifu a shit' do you think this thread would just support it because we're so obsessed with defending our Fuhrer?
This shit right here.
I would prefer to just stop hearing about Trump all together except when he actually does something related to Ukraine, but the positions people take against trump almost all lies or in the best case exaggerations out of context. He is held to a standard none of his detractors hold anyone else to; why constantly salivate over Trump failing even if hurts the country? You should instead hope for him to succeed in the way you'd like to see him succeed. But the vocal TDS crowd can't. Ever. Shut. the. fuck. up. about someone they claim to hate.

I am in this thread because I was sick of people peddling false narratives and trying to emotionally manipulate with headlines or spam lies to try prove them true. That's true on most any topic.

In short:

It's a MAGA echo-chamber because anyone who dares intrude with facts is heckled until they shut up, while bullshit information is affirmed and reinforced.
Sperging retards being told to apply their standards universally is not an echo chamber.

It's impossible and it begs question why you can't stand seeing something true be said about this person or his apostles.
I dunno, I've yet to see you actually say anything true about Trump.

They can't even admit that his lying campaign about USAID is fucked up and hurts American interests, they can't admit that he lies all the time, they can't admit that he doesn't understand balances of trade or tariffs, they can't admit that him making Kremlin propaganda his election platform hurt the US, they can't admit that
USAID was bloated and often not serving US interest. From employing people who literally hate amercia to ruining the US's image with fag and tranny propaganda, the purpose of actually trying to elevate other countries from thirdworld status lost, and it was American's tax dollars paying for it.
Did you donate to USAID? IF not, kindly shut the fuck up and go host a Mohammed Drawing contest in your nearest city.

anti-American agents like Tucker and Gabbard are even anti-American to begin with. Why? Because they are with Trump, and if Trump surrounds himself with traitors, he would be bad, so he cannot surround himself with traitors, so the traitors are not actually traitors. QED.
this is because you are a Eurocuck attempting to lecture your betters without an understanding of US politics beyond what the local communist-run media has told you to believe.
It is not that people agree with Tucker's stances on Russia, its that we don't give a shit because he is effectively a text-to-speech device with very little power, and is entitle to his opinion. Why get worked up when his lies will be shown to be lies - as you yourself say, he doesn't believe what he says. Its part of the brand, and that brand will change with the prevailing winds.

Tulsi, pre-confirmation, falls in the same reason we don't endlessly sperg when German PMs suck off Putin - they really don't matter because they are small fish. And if you bothered trying to understand the politicis of the country you froth about, instead of just repeating the latest polemic from your libshit Euro news, you'd understand that.

MAGA are some of the biggest crybabies on the internet and at the same time they're some of the most obnoxious and obsessive hecklers, so I see no reason to mince words, especially when they try to present themselves as being better than the vatniggers, even though they suffer the same kind of retardation, just about a different topic.
They sperg out whenever someone says something true about their God, so they can hear what people who aren't part of their echo-chamber think about them.
Says the Eurofag who can't stop posting TDS articles everywhere. Nice try, HHH's Sock, but we know who you are now.

... You realize the God Emperor sthick is a MEME, right?
No, he doesn't. His hateboner for some guy he'll never meet is so extreme it consumes and pervades every facet of his life to the point where he can't shut the fuck up about him: he MUST make his hatred known lest the thought police come for him for being a Nazi or something. And he assumed that because he is being told to shut up when he spergs that makes us the "other side" and thus our love must be as great as his autistic hate.

We should've declared victory in Afghanistan and left after OBL was killed. Staying for many more years and throwing away money on a fruitless attempt at nation-building for a culture that did not want to change was folly.
Staying in Afghtanistan post 2007ish was absolute madness.
 
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Hollywood-style Vietnam war movies are cool. Never seen a cool movie about Russians in Afghanistan and doubt anyone in either thread knows single good movie about that era.
XAXA NAFOtard. Behold the (American) movie The Beast about a Soviet tank getting lost.

Opening is phenomenal as the Soviets engage in conflict on a small Afghani village.
 
No, he doesn't. His hateboner for some guy he'll never meet is so extreme it consumes and pervades every facet of his life to the point where he can't shut the fuck up about him: he MUST make his hatred known lest the thought police come for him for being a Nazi or something. And he assumed that because he is being told to shut up when he spergs that makes us the "other side" and thus our love must be as great as his autistic hate
Trump is just a old grandpa at this point with a decent buisness sense. He's goofy, funny, but he's not Hitler. Sure he fucks up at times. Better than Biden. Gas prices dropped already. Best in four years. I just don't understand how people think he's evil. He's giving Ukraine their weapons and shit, he just wants mining rights now, because he's a buisness man. I see nothing wrong with that.
 
Trump is just a old grandpa at this point with a decent buisness sense. He's goofy, funny, but he's not Hitler. Sure he fucks up at times. Better than Biden. Gas prices dropped already. Best in four years. I just don't understand how people think he's evil. He's giving Ukraine their weapons and shit, he just wants mining rights now, because he's a buisness man. I see nothing wrong with that.
I'm sure Lincoln would have preferred his top performing general be a well-spoken, impeccably groomed, erudite fellow. Instead he got Grant, and instead of being emo about it he accepted it.

Trump didn't really need to do anything to get gas prices to drop. Literally, nothing. He just had to not be a fuckhead like Biden and stop cancelling oil leases so the speculation part of the overheads on prices would lessen. It'd be so fucking easy for anyone to do the good stuff Trump does, but no else does it, and its honestly infuriating.
 
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This reminds me of a story about a zen master and a little boy...
Except the movie version completely omitted the zen master i.e. Reagan. As without Reagan explicit go ahead and involvement there will have been no American support at all for the Afghani Mujahideen.*

*The Taliban didn't move into Afghanistan from Pakistan until after the Soviets had completely withdrawn from there.
 
Pretty much my thoughts on it, it's a reasonable assumption to make based on everything we know.
Also, I'd be very thankful if you stop sperging about Trump every other page, unless it's actually relevant to this thread, there's other places for that - I've frankly grown tired of it over the past decade.
Trump is just a old grandpa at this point with a decent buisness sense. He's goofy, funny, but he's not Hitler. Sure he fucks up at times. Better than Biden. Gas prices dropped already. Best in four years. I just don't understand how people think he's evil. He's giving Ukraine their weapons and shit, he just wants mining rights now, because he's a buisness man. I see nothing wrong with that.
My frame of reference is Putin, considering I only caught Yeltsin on his way out and lived under KGB globoschlomo mafia state all my life, so I think you got a better deal. Seeing people compare Trump to Hitler makes my blood boil... like, they have no fucking idea.
Hyperbole has its place but these hysterics can't be taken seriously.
 
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Except the movie version completely omitted the zen master i.e. Reagan. As without Reagan explicit go ahead and involvement there will have been no American support at all for the Afghani Mujahideen.*

*The Taliban didn't move into Afghanistan from Pakistan until after the Soviets had completely withdrawn from there.
Major US ally Ahmed Shah Massoud a.k.a. Lion of Panjshir first fought the Soviets then fought the Taliban.
Haqqani clan switched sides tho
Why is it that when people go to shit up this thread, they all inevitably start sperging about Vietnam?
Because it's burned into the cultural zeitgeist as the baseline "bigger power fails to subdue smaller state" war.

It's like the Hitler of wars.
Sure, when you look for examples of killer dictators there are more psychotic autocrats with higher percentage/totals killed and/or ruthless and sadistic means of oppression. But who compares their rivals to Stalin? Who talks about accidentally making Pol Pot gestures? What teenager calls their parents or teachers Leopold? Hitler is the one everyone knows about, Hitler is the evil asshole who comes to everyone's mind when they think of "dictator"

Or fucking T-Rex. Maybe you've heard of Spinosaurus, Allosaurus, bonus for any of the Carchar clan, +30 social credit points for knowing about Yangchuanosaurus, etc. But when you think of "big scary carnivorous dinosaur" you think of fucking T-Rex.

When you think of "prolonged hybrid conflict" and/or "US military failure" and/or "pointless war", you probably think of Vietnam first thing on the mind. Even if it's not the best example, its often the first example that comes up.
Weird example still. I'd personally use the Red Sea debacle with the Houthis. It's very clear cut, and very humiliating
Houthis have lost how many personnel, missile launchers, radar stations, and other areas of operational infrastructure for how many US or coalition warships sunk now?
 
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