Sperg about the differences between US and Russian tech

[Pelican Bones]

View attachment 6975619

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/su57-arrival-india-cancel-f35-flight-demonstration-plans

So you're comparing the Su-57 (Russia's 20 yr belated answer to the F-22) against the F-35, which is single engined and very specifically not designed as a dogfighter?

Fucking galaxy brained, bro.

 

[autistic dog]

So you're comparing the Su-57 (Russia's 20 yr belated answer to the F-22) against the F-35, which is single engined and very specifically not designed as a dogfighter?

Fucking galaxy brained, bro.

No he's right the US government better give lockheed another 2 trillion dollars to develop something that would even have a chance to defeat such a fierce fighter!

 

[Pelican Bones]

No he's right the US government better give lockheed another 2 trillion dollars to develop something that would even have a chance to defeat such a fierce fighter!

If by "right" you mean "wrong" then I agree.

However big (or small) of clusterfuck the F-35 has turned out to be at this point is irrelevant to the Su-57 question. The US gov't has gambled (correctly or incorrectly) that the old F-15 hypothesis of air superiority is outdated. The F-35 was simply not designed for that role.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[autistic dog]

If by "right" you mean "wrong" then I agree.

However big (or small) of clusterfuck the F-35 has turned out to be at this point is irrelevant to the Su-57 question. The US gov't has gambled (correctly or incorrectly) that the old F-15 hypothesis of air superiority is outdated. The F-35 was simply not designed for that role.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Let me introduce you to the F-15EX

 

[Pelican Bones]

Let me introduce you to the F-15EX

A life extension program for a 50 yo airframe because they didn't produce enough F-22s. I'm familiar with it.

 

[autistic dog]

A life extension program for a 50 yo airframe because they didn't produce enough F-22s. I'm familiar with it.

It actually makes the airframe nearly as effective as the F-35 for 99% of realistic uses. They also purchased a shitload of prop crop dusters when they realized it could carry the same missile load as an F-35 in "beast mode".

Point being the f-35 gets most of its credit for being a fat bitch that carry a shitload of highly effective missile options. Sure it has stealth and sensor fusion but you only need one of those calling all of the shots the rest of the planes can be crop dusters with the same missiles.

 

[Cuckoman]

It actually makes the airframe nearly as effective as the F-35 for 99% of realistic uses. They also purchased a shitload of prop crop dusters when they realized it could carry the same missile load as an F-35 in "beast mode".

Point being the f-35 gets most of its credit for being a fat bitch that carry a shitload of highly effective missile options. Sure it has stealth and sensor fusion but you only need one of those calling all of the shots the rest of the planes can be crop dusters with the same missiles.

Sure, but I think the ukraine war now has shown that if you even have a semi-modern plane, modern day drones and aa missiles makes the planes obsolete.
UNLESS you have so many planes that you can quickly shut down every drone or aa site and gain air-superiority.

While I do recognize that revolutionary breakthroughs can happen regularly, like washing machine powder getting twice as effective very 6 months. I doubt this is true for fighter planes.
All previous generation planes were easily dismantled in ukraine in matter of days. HOW much better is current gen F-35? Better enough to make a difference or just "a lot better to drop missiles on cave-niggers with an ak-47?"

 

[Ghostse]

All previous generation planes were easily dismantled in ukraine in matter of days. HOW much better is current gen F-35? Better enough to make a difference or just "a lot better to drop missiles on cave-niggers with an ak-47?"

At issue in Ukraine is all the planes involved except for the 8 latest that showed up after all fun was over, were soviet jets. Every soviet jet after the Mig-21 has been hot, rancide tranny ward biowaste garbage compared to western jets.
The only threat in Ukraine to western jets is Slav pilots too used to flying Soviet trash to avoid the ground.

 

[Fapcop]

At issue in Ukraine is all the planes involved except for the 8 latest that showed up after all fun was over, were soviet jets. Every soviet jet after the Mig-21 has been hot, rancide tranny ward biowaste garbage compared to western jets.
The only threat in Ukraine to western jets is Slav pilots too used to flying Soviet trash to avoid the ground.

Hmm yes, just look at all the kills that the F16’s have! Oh wait…

Sure, but I think the ukraine war now has shown that if you even have a semi-modern plane, modern day drones and aa missiles makes the planes obsolete.
UNLESS you have so many planes that you can quickly shut down every drone or aa site and gain air-superiority.

Even a massive advantage in planes doesn’t really guarantee success.

At the end of the day, your planes will be loaded with missiles with a fairly limited range. When they’re up against an integrated air defense/denial system with missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers, well. Planes are going to pull the short straw.

(On top of that, we’re talking 50-100 million dollar planes, with pilots that take years to train, against missiles that cost a few hundred thousand and radars that cost millions. With crew that can be trained in six months.)

There has always been an arms race between air offensives and air defense. Right now air defense is on top. And as you point out, the age of the drone and automated system is here.

And precise land launched cruise missiles and cheap loitering ammunition is the way to go. Why would you even need say a 50 million dollar tactical fighter number, when a handful of 30.000$ loitering Lancet missiles can do the job?

While I do recognize that revolutionary breakthroughs can happen regularly, like washing machine powder getting twice as effective very 6 months. I doubt this is true for fighter planes.
All previous generation planes were easily dismantled in ukraine in matter of days. HOW much better is current gen F-35? Better enough to make a difference or just "a lot better to drop missiles on cave-niggers with an ak-47?"

Stealth isn’t some magic technology. It just means that the plane has a lower cross section and is less observable from certain angles and certain radar wavebands. And neither the F35 or for that matter, older planes like the F16 or F15 have been up against a proper, modern, integrated, multi layered air defense system like the ones Russia and China (or to a lesser extent Germany) has.

(And speaking of China, as early as five years ago, they demonstrated an interesting new way to track “stealth” planes:

https://www.sofx.com/chinese-satellite-reportedly-tracks-us-f-22-raptor-fighter-jet/

Obviously, integrating this into an air defense system isn’t exactly an unsolvable problem.)

Well the F16 has, and some of them got shot down. Ever since the Ukrainian keep them as far away from action as possible.

There was, but the Dems chased him away and Trump is fighting for him to get a cabinet position (While he and Trump still hold conflicting views on many subjects).

They chased everyone sane and rational away. Joe Rogan was a Democrat ffs, as was Matt Taibi. Shit, a good part of Trump voters, voted Dem at some point or another.

The entire Democrat party has been seized by these weirdo Marxist, and the only people still supporting them who aren’t weird Redditors, are the ones who don’t pay attention and do it as a reflex, boomers who kind of got addicted to outrage porn, and the kind of people who invest their entire personality in the social capital they think they get from unironically saying things like “do better!” Or “The right side of history!”

The criticism of Trump on Gaza hasn't really gone away either. I don't think anyone was flat out in support of it on its face. Opinions ran from "confused" to "well that was retarded" to "maybe it's 4D chess?"

Meh, the best explanation I’ve seen for this top dollar retarded idea is that he’s doing it to prop up Netanyahu politically, after Don forced Netanyahu to accept the ceasefire with Hamas that he didn’t want to accept.

So kinda 4D?

The other explanation is that Trump just likes to shoot off weird ideas occasionally, and Kushner planted this in his head.

Whoever lets Kushner anywhere near him, needs to get fired.

That guy, and Ivanka proved what they’re made off, when they tried to wash their hands off Trump after Jan 6.

 

[Just Some Other Guy]

Hmm yes, just look at all the kills that the F16’s have! Oh wait…

"Everything Russian sucks! Muh western equipment would totally beat it 10:1 if it wasn't for a quite staggering list of cop-errr excus....I mean totally heckin' valid reasons"

Never gets old.

 

[Quence]

At the end of the day, your planes will be loaded with missiles with a fairly limited range. When they’re up against an integrated air defense/denial system with missiles with a range of hundreds of kilometers, well. Planes are going to pull the short straw.

There has always been an arms race between air offensives and air defense. Right now air defense is on top.

And neither the F35 or for that matter, older planes like the F16 or F15 have been up against a proper, modern, integrated, multi layered air defense system like the ones Russia and China (or to a lesser extent Germany) has.

Hmm, it seems that the Israeli Air Force doesn’t believe you. Iran was reputed to have one of the most comprehensive and effective air defences in the world and yet Israel quickly achieved air superiority over that blighted land. Iran’s plethora of S-300 and S-400 AA systems were either destroyed or were suddenly made obsolete as an armada of Israeli jets poured into the country and did as they pleased.

All this as Israel continues to announce that they will keep sending aircraft into Iranian airspace day after day. Has the Israeli Air Force lost a single aircraft yet during these bombing runs?

 

[Fapcop]

Hmm, it seems that the Israeli Air Force doesn’t believe you. Iran was reputed to have one of the most comprehensive and effective air defences in the world and yet Israel quickly achieved air superiority over that blighted land. Iran’s plethora of S-300 and S-400 AA systems were either destroyed or were suddenly made obsolete as an armada of Israeli jets poured into the country and did as they pleased.

All this as Israel continues to announce that they will keep sending aircraft into Iranian airspace day after day. Has the Israeli Air Force lost a single aircraft yet during these bombing runs?

1. First of all, Iran didn’t have any S400. Irans AD consisted of a mix of older Russian SAMs, some homebuilt stuff and ancient American stuff.

(Yes, they signed contracts for newer AD, most of those haven’t been recieved yet for obvious reasons.)

2: Israel took out many Iranian AD through a combination of a cyber attack and agents on the ground attacking them with drones. So their response or lack thereof says little about their effectiveness.

3. After the initial confusion and cyber attack, you saw the Iranian AD respond and shoot down both some Israeli missiles, an American drone and possibly also Israeli planes.

4. Conversely, despite supposedly having the best AD in the world, AND having help from both NATO and Jordan, Israel is still seeing missile strikes into Tel Aviv.

What does that mean besides “AD is HARD!”?

It means American and Israeli failure. Remember: It was supposed to be a knock out blow taking out all of Irans capabilities, and hopefully topple the regime. Not result in a shooting war where missiles are lobbed back and forth.

And please, another time: Make more of an effort instead of just repeating ad verbatim whatever boomer bait “EXTRA! IRAN DESTROYED!” article you see on Foxnews.

I get it, it’s complicated stuff. But still doesn’t hurt to do some research beyond scrolling on Twitter and CNN.

Btw: I’ll laugh pretty hard if Trump manages to bungle this, and get America involved in yet another forever war in the Middle East. It’s not like the US has a great track record there.

 

[Quence]

1. First of all, Iran didn’t have any S400. Irans AD consisted of a mix of older Russian SAMs, some homebuilt stuff and ancient American stuff.

That is correct about the S-400. But Iran did have a thickly layered air defence system that included S-300 batteries and a plethora of domestic AA options with long range, intermediate, and short range capabilities. Their air defence power was considered to be serious and significant.

2: Israel took out many Iranian AD through a combination of a cyber attack and agents on the ground attacking them with drones. So their response or lack thereof says little about their effectiveness.

Very few of Iran’s air defences were disabled in that manner.

Israel used its most advanced stealth aircraft, the F-35, enhanced with intelligence-gathering modifications to fly deep into Iranian territory and strike Iran’s air defense radar installations and surface-to-air missile batteries. After suppressing most of Iran’s air defenses, Israel sent older fighter jets, including F-15s and F-16s, to join the operation and began dropping JDAMs and SPICE bombs - relatively inexpensive compared to missiles - on an expanding list of military sites, some of them within the heart of Tehran.

3. After the initial confusion and cyber attack, you saw the Iranian AD respond and shoot down both some Israeli missiles, an American drone and possibly also Israeli planes.

Iranian claims that Israeli aircraft have been shot down appear to be completely bogus. Iran says that it has shot down 3 F-35’s and captured pilots, but they have provided absolutely no proof. The IDF has strongly refuted those claims and would certainly want to get their pilots back if they were captured.

4. Conversely, despite supposedly having the best AD in the world, AND having help from both NATO and Jordan, Israel is still seeing missile strikes into Tel Aviv.

But very few of those missiles are getting through the Iron Dome. Israel’s air defenses have been astonishingly effective. I would have thought many more missiles and drones would hit targets via swarm attacks, but Israel’s AD keeps picking them off.

Remember: It was supposed to be a knock out blow taking out all of Irans capabilities, and hopefully topple the regime. Not result in a shooting war where missiles are lobbed back and forth.

No, the Israeli government and military said there would be a significant response from Iran via its ballistic missile stockpile and its arsenal of drones. It’s why they ordered civilians to stay indoors and be near air raid shelters.

 

[BABANGUIDE64]

What is not buzzing nor can physically be stuck up your ass?
A soviet vibrator