Japanese Learning Thread - Exchanging things they have learned with the tranime weeb language.

[Safir]

I used some website called Kanji Damage a long time ago to learn the kanji.

A warning (I will type "nigger" to prove I wasn't paid for it), Kanji Damage is a bit sus.

https://www.kanjidamage.com/introduction

Introduction, or why most kanji textbooks suck

So far, all kanji books have been written by people that are language experts and professors. It turns out that professors are the people least-qualified to teach kanji (well, second only to Japanese people).

Here's why: By the time some dude gets a PhD. In Japanese, he has totally forgotten the basic problems that drive students crazy. He's all into the 2,000 year old etymological roots of "cow" (牛) instead of remembering that 'cow' looks exactly like 'noon' (午) and what a pain that is. He's forgotten that if you're just now learning "car" (車) and "big" (大）, you can't necessarily see their relationship to collision (衝) and nature (然) (hint: both 車 and 大 are hidden in the middle of the bigger kanji).

He starts dissing kanji origin, then says kanji composition is important! But his first example is a lie, "collision" does not contain "car". It's important because "car" is written differently! In "car", you write h stroke - wheel - h stroke - v axle. In the central element of "collision", the "person carrying heavy object" part (the object being the same object as in "bouquet" and "to practice"), you write the two upper h strokes, the bundle, the v stroke, and only the the two bottom h strokes. The sounds are different, too. Thinking of "heavy object" as "line - car - line" is wrong.

It's much better to think of "collision" as "heavy object at intersection", because it's useful and mostly/completely true ("heavy object" is used for the sound).

TL;DR I'm against fake mnemonics. I'm not against one's own fake mnemonics, but external knowledge has to be truthful.

Fun fact:
弱 "weak" is two men pissing.

Also, reading practice is best. Do not rush moar matching meaning to character, just read moar. Getting used to seeing a character in words is best for memorization. Once you've seen 成る = "become" in sentences enough, you'll never mistake it for "exceeding" or "invariably".

 

[Alex Hogendorp]

I've been learning how to say certain sentences in Japanese and I am familiar with around 50 Kanji's. English aside. Japanese so far is my second most proficient language behind Spanish and above Russian.

 

[Carlos Thin]

The only think you need to know about Japan is the character Android 18. The only redeemable part of gook entertainment. Besides her all of nip culture is useless chink propaganda. I regret to have watched Pokémon (soy consumerist bullshit) and Sailor Moon (Ching chong horseshit).

 

[Safir]

This is why I can't ever finish my daily Japanese on time, I keep reading up on random shit.

Anyway (兎に角),
Kanji Study's Outlier add-ons are on sale. It doesn't often happen, go get them if you're an android patrician.

(iPhone fags COCATb)

 

[BananaSplit²]

He starts dissing kanji origin, then says kanji composition is important! But his first example is a lie, "collision" does not contain "car". It's important because "car" is written differently! In "car", you write h stroke - wheel - h stroke - v axle. In the central element of "collision", the "person carrying heavy object" part (the object being the same object as in "bouquet" and "to practice"), you write the two upper h strokes, the bundle, the v stroke, and only the the two bottom h strokes. The sounds are different, too. Thinking of "heavy object" as "line - car - line" is wrong.

That's not what the guy in KanjiDamage is saying though.
What he essentially means: you shouldn't be taught kanji vocabulary exactly the same way as you would learn vocabulary words in a foreign latin/germanic language such as English or French by ordering words in terms of frequency and common topics. Much like you cannot learn them like a native Japanese who had his/her whole childhood ahead to be familiar with the kana basics + interacting with others (unlike you, the older gaijin, who have to start from total scratch).

It's preferable to take a smart and efficient approach in order to not uselessly grind kanji for an untold amount of time (with the risk to redo again because you forgot things), and those methods involve the mnemonics through radicals as well as analyzing look-a-likes next to each other. For example, it makes more sense to memorize these two characters together in order to distinct the differences right away:


Both characters then have various kanji "evolutions" that create new words such as 報 (data, news), 達 (pluralizing suffix, accomplish), 辞 (resign), etc.

Yes, his example of 衝 & 車 in the paragraph you quoted isn't the best but I give him the benefit of doubt for trying to explain the concept with only basic kanji characters familiar to newcomers (people with a casual approach and a beginner level in Japanese so far), especially as that kind of mistake isn't repeated on the actual kanji page.



As with everything else, KD shouldn't be the sole learning source (considering there is the obvious matter of grammar for example not covered there) but I still recommend that website because it warns of the easy traps given on the topic of Kanji and remain quite useful. The sole similar material I'm aware that classifies kanji characters by radicals is the Kodansha Kanji Learner's Course by Andrew Scott Conning (I have a 2013 print edition), although I found the lexicon part for each kanji to be rather lacking so it only served as something extra on the side.

While I do understand Kanji itself is a large battlefield to handle, it is a mistake to skip or make light of grammar however.
There is the whole matter of expressions, clauses and idioms too, which I can provide a few common examples I've encountered in media fiction I've consumed:

タチ悪い (i-adjective) - in bad taste, problematic, of poor character
おまけに (conjunction) - besides, what's more, in addition, on top of that
にも関わらす (conjunction) - in spite of, nevertheless, although, despite, regardless of
あるうことか - of all things
一蹴する (Suru verb) - to flatly reject, to brush aside / to beat easily, to defeat easily
裏を返せば - to look at it from another perspective, to look at it from a different angle, to put it the other way around
首を突っ込む (Godan verb) - to poke one's nose into another's affairs, to meddle in
機嫌を損ねる (Ichidan verb) - to displease, to offend, to hurt (someone's) feelings
駄々を捏ねる (Ichidan verb) - to be unreasonable, to whine, to throw a tantrum
寝返りを打つ (Godan verb) - to change sides, to double-cross, to betray / can also simply mean "to toss and turn (in bed)" or "turn over (in one's sleep)"
図星に当たる (Godan verb) - to hit the bull's eye
図星を指す (Godan verb) - to hit the nail on the head, to guess exactly right
控え目に言う (Godan verb) - to speak with restraint, to downplay, to put it mildly, to understate
結論から言うと - going straight to the point, cutting it short, as it turns out
言われてみれば - now that you say that, now that you mention it
念のため (Adverb) - just to be sure, just in case, (just) making sure, for caution's sake
にしては - Grammar rule to describe a situation that is contrary to one’s expectation : for (e.g. he speaks Japanese well for a foreigner / 外国人にしては日本語が上手ですね), considering it's (something or someone)

And of course, some of the derogatory terms you won't see in the typical scholar lessons:

ふぜい (as a suffix) - the likes of (also written 連れ), lowly people such as...
くそたわけ / くそ戯け - idiot, shitbrain
くそったれ - (as a noun) shithead, bastard / (as a noun with the case particle の or na-adjective) fucking, bloody, damned
たれ / ったれ / タレ - (as a suffix) -ass, -head
厨 - (as a suffix) -fag, addict, nerd (e.g. 百合厨 - yurifag)
アマ - bitch
ならず者 and ゴロツキ - ruffian, scoundrel, thug, rascal, hoodlum, villain
野蛮 - savage, uncivilized, barbarian
駄犬 - mongrel, mutt, cur
黒んぼ - black person, darkie, golliwog
白んぼ - white person, whitey, honkie
メンヘラ - nutjob, lunatic, mentally troubled person
ミーハー - poser, trend junkie, sheep
デブ - fatso, fatty, chubby
チンピラ - little shit, brat
野郎 - asshole, bastard, son of a bitch
キチガイ (気違い) - madman, freak, enthusiast, junkie
クーガー - cougar
ホモ - homo, homosexual (especially towards males)
レズ - lesbian, lesbo, dyke
負け犬 - loser, failure, unsuccessful person / can also label an "unmarried and childless older woman"
鬼女 - humorous/derogatory term for "married woman"
おかちめんこ - (woman's) ugly or homely face, old bag
ツイフェミ - Twitter feminist (abbreviation)
チーズ牛丼 / abbr. チーぎゅう or チー牛 - (Internet slang, lit. cheese gyuudon) otaku, nerd, geek

Really put these claims of "Japanese is too polite and doesn't curse enough like English" to shame because they only recognize てめえ, 奴 and 貴様 in kids shows.

The real silly part of the Japanese language imo, from a foreigner's pov, is the existence of the onomatopoeia/mimetic words. They're not hard to memorize but there is nothing to approximately guess their meanings on your own when you encounter them for the first time:

しばしば - often, again and again, frequently, repeatedly
ぶつぶつ - (Noun, Adverb) grumble, complaint, mutter / cutting into small pieces
くたくた - (Na-adjective, Adverb) exhausted, tired, worn out / battered (e.g. clothing), ragged, tattered
いらいら - (Suru verb, noun, adverb) to get irritated, to get annoyed, to be on the edge, to lose patience
ぷんぷん - (Adverb, suru verb) angrily, fuming, in a huff, furiously / (smelling) strongly, pungently
わくわく - (Suru verb, adverb) to be excited, to be thrilled
はらはら - (Suru verb, adverb) to feel nervous, to feel anxious, to be kept in suspense
きらきら - (Adverb, suru verb) glittering, sparkling, twinkling
ざらざら - (Adverb, の noun, suru verb) rough (touch, voice, etc), coarse, gritty, granular
うろうろ - (Adverb) restlessly, aimlessly, without purpose / (Suru verb) to loiter, to drift, to wander aimlessly, to be restless
オドオド - (Adverb) timidly, nervously, hesitantly, fearfully
ペコペコ - (Na-adjective) very hungry, starving, famished
ぺらぺら - (Adverb, na-adjective) fluently (in a foreign language)

 

[Carpenter Trout]

Kanji Study's Outlier add-ons

how does it differ from anki? I read on a couple of blogs run by the Learn Japanese Daily threads that it's basically the go-to way to learn the Kanjis.

Still, something annoying I've noticed in most books and apps is that none of them tries to explain the culture. When learning a language you're also supposed to learn a bit of the country of interest's costumes and use, for some reason nobody even tries to mention this. I don't mean to have an in-depth chapter dedicated on the Edo era, but at least explain why doing something that is commonly accepted in the USA or whatever else may not be considered publicly acceptable (such as throwing trash around).
Memrise had something like this, but it was so superficial it felt like a joke.

 

[Desu Mountain]

奢る and 屠る look far too similar for comfort.

Anyway, got bamboozled. Found a really nice app that I thought was free called kakikata, spent a couple of weeks on it and then found out that if I want to use it more it wants me to get a paid subscription. If it were a one-time payment I might consider it, but fuck subscribing.

 

[Safir]

Anyway, got bamboozled. Found a really nice app that I thought was free called kakikata, spent a couple of weeks on it and then found out that if I want to use it more it wants me to get a paid subscription. If it were a one-time payment I might consider it, but fuck subscribing.

Buy Kanji Study, it's a one-time payment. Don't buy the Outlier Expert addon though, there've been no updates in 3 years.
weebs anonymous accountability poast

The colored numbers are character counts and how well the app thinks I know them. I set it to only go up with correct answers on scheduled quizzes.

I suspect all the "learn to weeb" apps use the same handwriting recognition library anyway.

 

[Desu Mountain]

I already know how to read, so I mostly just want something that lets me practice drawing the kanji somewhat effortlessly. Kakikata seemed almost perfect.

 

[Safir]

I already know how to read, so I mostly just want something that lets me practice drawing the kanji somewhat effortlessly. Kakikata seemed almost perfect.

I suspect all these apps use the same recognition library. Unless Kakikata is really something special, try Kanji Study for free (first level of an active set?) and see what it does.

 

[GratsTheat783]

I've been using the Core 2k/6k Optimized deck for Anki and WaniKani for kanji learning. I've not kept up with reading or listening however. I try to use Todaii news, but I often end up spending all of my time highlighting most of the article sentence by sentence to translate it. I'll try that Kanji Study app recommended above. Does anyone have any recommendations for good reading and listening programs for Japanese? Thanks.

 

[Safir]

Does anyone have any recommendations for good reading and listening programs for Japanese?

Satori Reader but it's subscription-based and gay (there's an ongoing story about butt piracy). Two chapters of every story are free. I got a discounted subscription last summer and again around Black Friday on their site (on their site, when there's a discount, it's for everyone, not just for new paypigs; there isn't one currently, though). You can get a subscription for one month and copy all the current content manually / with a browser emulator, but then you won't have the convenience of an app. If I don't come by a new payment method before my subscription is about to expire, I'll probably make a javascript app for myself, with Freecell and demimondaines.

 

[Grub]

Something I've been mildly curious about lately and figured maybe one of you guys might know but why does this '魔王 Maō' get localized in so many different ways? The most literal translation seems to be devil king but I've seen that get localized to all kinds of different things. JRPGs seem to do it a lot. In English they'll get called some shit like the arch lord sinistral of evil or some shit like that or I see fiend used a lot but then you find out in Japanese it's just yet another Maō. Is there an actual reason in Japanese why they do this instead of just calling it the demonlord or something? Or is it just localizers not wanting to use the word devil and trying to be creative?

 

[Desu Mountain]

Something I've been mildly curious about lately and figured maybe one of you guys might know but why does this '魔王 Maō' get localized in so many different ways? The most literal translation seems to be devil king but I've seen that get localized to all kinds of different things. JRPGs seem to do it a lot. In English they'll get called some shit like the arch lord sinistral of evil or some shit like that or I see fiend used a lot but then you find out in Japanese it's just yet another Maō. Is there an actual reason in Japanese why they do this instead of just calling it the demonlord or something? Or is it just localizers not wanting to use the word devil and trying to be creative?

Because 魔 doesn't have a set meaning. It can mean magic, evil, witch, demon, devil, and a whole host of Buddhist-related things. A lot of people will remember that Ganondorf's 魔王 title was translated to King of Evil (until that garbage Treehouse translation of Tears of the Kingdom decided to translate the title of the King of Gerudos who is an evil wizard into "Demon King"), but there's a much more interesting and earlier situation where an English work had a character's title translated to 魔王. The Lord of the Rings, The Witch-King of Angmar, or as he's known in the Japanese translation, アングマールの魔王.

In my opinion, Demon King/Lord is a lazy and boring translation.

 

[Grub]

Because 魔 doesn't have a set meaning. It can mean magic, evil, witch, demon, devil, and a whole host of Buddhist-related things.

That's what I was wondering. It's hard to tell without actually knowing the language how much of any given translation is because of the ambiguities of Japanese or translators not understanding or caring about context or intentionally changing or censoring things. Especially when it comes to things even remotely tied to religion. I just tend to see devil king used a lot in translations where things seem to be translated more literally and a lot of Japanese is left untouched so I figured that was the most literal translation but it seems like maybe it's the most lazy translation.

A lot of people will remember that Ganondorf's 魔王 title was translated to King of Evil, but there's a much more interesting and earlier situation where an English work had a character's title translated to 魔王. The Lord of the Rings, The Witch-King of Angmar, or as he's known in the Japanese translation, アングマールの魔王.

Given what you said above that actually makes a lot of sense for the witch-king especially given his backstory and lore in middle Earth.

In my opinion, Demon King/Lord is a lazy and boring translation.

After seeing your explanation I agree with this. It wouldn't make sense and it would be boring to translate everything that way if the words do have more of a general meaning. This actually makes it a lot more interesting for me and now makes me wonder why a particular translation was used over another. I've always found Japanese translations interesting just because of how different the language is from English and how much work and interpretation needs to be done to have anything make sense.

 

[sadrefrigerator]

I've been using the Core 2k/6k Optimized deck for Anki and WaniKani for kanji learning. I've not kept up with reading or listening however. I try to use Todaii news, but I often end up spending all of my time highlighting most of the article sentence by sentence to translate it. I'll try that Kanji Study app recommended above. Does anyone have any recommendations for good reading and listening programs for Japanese? Thanks.

Todaii just aggregates. Different sites have different levels of difficulty for their easy news, and I'm pretty sure todaii has an algorithm for ranking most of them.
Try filtering so you only see NHK easy. Those are the easiest.

 

[Desu Mountain]

After seeing your explanation I agree with this. It wouldn't make sense and it would be boring to translate everything that way if the words do have more of a general meaning. This actually makes it a lot more interesting for me and now makes me wonder why a particular translation was used over another. I've always found Japanese translations interesting just because of how different the language is from English and how much work and interpretation needs to be done to have anything make sense.

I remember people were up in arms because the Konosuba LN translated 紅魔族 to Crimson Magic Clan instead of Crimson Demon Clan. Never mind that they're a clan of magic users with crimson eyes with not a drop of demon blood in them. Though I will grant that you lose a fair amount of chuuni points by not translating it to Demon.

Though I would've just translated it to Crimson Mages. The insistence of always translating 族 to Clan or Tribe kinda rubs me the wrong way, since it's a pretty generic suffix for a group and doesn't have to imply any kind of societal structure.

 

[Grub]

I remember people were up in arms because the Konosuba LN translated 紅魔族 to Crimson Magic Clan instead of Crimson Demon Clan. Never mind that they're a clan of magic users with crimson eyes with not a drop of demon blood in them. Though I will grant that you lose a fair amount of chuuni points by not translating it to Demon.

Google translate seems to think it's demon as well. I copied and pasted the kanji you wrote into Google translate and it gave me Kurenai mazoku and translated it to Crimson Demon without clan or tribe or anything like that. It really seems like context is quite important with a lot of these kinds of decisions.

Though I would've just translated it to Crimson Mages. The insistence of always translating 族 to Clan or Tribe kinda rubs me the wrong way, since it's a pretty generic suffix for a group and doesn't have to imply any kind of societal structure.

I wonder if that comes down to differences in the things English leaves implied vs Japanese. In English if you call something 'The Crimson Mages' you can usually understand just by context that it's most likely some kind of group or organization of mages without explicitly saying it. I may be wrong but In Japanese I'm guessing you need that word stating it's specifically a group? Maybe it's maybe more of a matter of the translator wanting to translate all the words when they do something like that instead of leaving it implied which would make more sense in English?

 

[Dr Cruel]

 

[Desu Mountain]

I wonder if that comes down to differences in the things English leaves implied vs Japanese. In English if you call something 'The Crimson Mages' you can usually understand just by context that it's most likely some kind of group or organization of mages without explicitly saying it. I may be wrong but In Japanese I'm guessing you need that word stating it's specifically a group?

I should've specified group in a more biological sense rather than an organizational. It implies some kind of blood/gene/taxonomical grouping, like a family, tribe, ethnicity, race, or species (though it's also used in things like math and chemistry for families of numbers and groups in the periodic table).

Anyway, don't use Google Translate as a learning tool. It will lead you astray so often and you have to already have a good idea of what the correct answer is in order to know when it's feeding you bullshit. Any kind of automated tools to give readings or meanings is going to be unreliable (though Google Translate's automated reading guesser is at least better than Jisho's). If you must use some kind of automated stuff, the best is probably DeepSeek. ChatGPT if you're desperate. Though honestly, for names, especially fictional ones you should refer to a Japanese wiki, like the Pixiv Encyclopedia.

https://dic.pixiv.net/a/%E7%B4%85%E9%AD%94%E6%97%8F

As you can see, 紅魔族 is meant to be read こうまぞく.