Russian Special Military Operation in the Ukraine - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[TexWiller]

That’s what I read as well.

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The whole concept is retarded as f.

Defense/Military is one of the few things that the EU mostly doesn’t mess with. And for good reason.

Who’s going to command it? What nation?
(Big decisions in the EU are usually decided on a consensus basis. EVERY nation has to agree, and one nation can throw spanner in the works by saying: “No!” Can you imagine a military run like that?)

What is the common language going to be? You can’t have an army speak. Dozen different languages?

Who’s going to pay for it? Who’s going to man it? Some EU countries have conscription, many don’t.

What equipment are they going to use? Right now America basically supplies everything. Including critical assets like reconnaissance and communications. Building European capabilities will be very expensive and take many years.

What about France’s nukes? Will they be included? France probably wouldn’t like that very much. Would they effectively have to be nuclear umbrella and guarantor for all of Europe. So if Riga gets nuked, France needs to launch counter strikes and lose… Paris?

lol, come on.

A European army isn’t a serious proposal. Anyone can see that.

And that’s the underlying problem. Europe isn’t ruled by serious people.

In western europe only Switzerland (which is not EU/NATO even tho the traitors in the federal government pretend they are) and Austria have conscription. the rest have small armies and could field maybe a couple brigades each, if that.
but even if the whole EU tomorrow introduced conscription, there is no infrastructure and no kit for even small conscription batches. back in the 80es, when draft still existed in italy, conscripts spent 12 months doing mostly nothing, shot 2 mags at the range, and were totally useless and unmotivated to even perform menial tasks, let alone fight. i skipped conscription because my group was too large, my bro, who is very tall, spent the whole basic training with sneakers because the army didnt have boots his size, and spent the rest working as waiter in the officers mess.

also there is the little detail that most shiny toys the europoors own are US made or require US support, and they would be disabled the moment the DoD or POTUS think they might be used the wrong way, and the way european leaders are speaking now, they are basically declaring their will to go against US will, which is the closest thing to a declaration of war.
hell, even procuring the massive amounts of ammo for small arms needed for a real war would be a challenge. over here we still suffer from shortages of reloading material for civilian use.

And conscription is completely off the table - There's no politician in the EU who'd actually suicide their career to save Ukraine like that. Most of them are grifting cucks, and the few that have spines and principles, tend to have them focused around the people of their nations interests, not the intent to send them to die somewhere else.

oh, there are many politicians in EU who would not hesitate one second to introduce conscription, but they simply cant because they lack the resources and to form half credible armies would take decades.
Also, even if contracts were offered to join armies, i suspect only the really wrong people (leftists, idiots, troons and the likes who are on board with this madness) would be willing to join.
most people in western europe joined the army because it is some sort of state bureaucracy safe job, and fighting a real war was never in their plans.

 

[Overly Serious]

Bolton should be taken out back and put down like Ol' Yeller.

Old Yeller was some kind of large working farm dog. John Bolton has always reminded me of an elderly shnauzer.

That’s what I read as well.

View attachment 6987325



The whole concept is retarded as f.

Defense/Military is one of the few things that the EU mostly doesn’t mess with. And for good reason.

Who’s going to command it? What nation?
(Big decisions in the EU are usually decided on a consensus basis. EVERY nation has to agree, and one nation can throw spanner in the works by saying: “No!” Can you imagine a military run like that?)

What is the common language going to be? You can’t have an army speak. Dozen different languages?

Who’s going to pay for it? Who’s going to man it? Some EU countries have conscription, many don’t.

What equipment are they going to use? Right now America basically supplies everything. Including critical assets like reconnaissance and communications. Building European capabilities will be very expensive and take many years.

What about France’s nukes? Will they be included? France probably wouldn’t like that very much. Would they effectively have to be nuclear umbrella and guarantor for all of Europe. So if Riga gets nuked, France needs to launch counter strikes and lose… Paris?

lol, come on.

A European army isn’t a serious proposal. Anyone can see that.

And that’s the underlying problem. Europe isn’t ruled by serious people.

All this may be true. But doesn't mean the EU heads wont try it. I recall during the run up to the Brexit referendum, Nick Clegg lied his face off on national television saying there were no plans for an EU army. And EU heads quickly dropped any public discussion of such. And within a week of the referendum having taken place, they were talking about it openly again, They've wanted this for a long time. It's not solely about external defence. After all, at least some of the smarter EU heads must realise nobody is going to invade them militarily. But an EU army would be made up of many different nations yet have remit to be stationed and deployed in any member state. So if there's civil uprising in Britain, they can deploy Polish troops, trouble in Italy? Deploy British troops. Armies siding with the local populace from which they're drawn has always been a risk for dictators, which is why historically they loved to bring in foreign mercenaries (often Swiss) to bolster their power. That's a little too obvious these days if you want to be "democratic" but an EU army can accomplish the same thing legally and with a fig leaf of "unity".

The first and oldest enemy of a nation's leaders will and always has been, the nation's people.

 

[TexWiller]

And within a week of the referendum having taken place, they were talking about it openly again, They've wanted this for a long time.

Foreign policy in EU has traditionally been handled by the states; Dracula is trying to grab that power but she will find huge resistance even in the various militaries.
plus there is the problem that EU countries are in NATO and many are under military occupation by the US. so they are not really free to do what they want militarily, as any military intervention outside NATO coverage might quickly turn south and then who is going to give backup?

political winds are not favourable now and any sudden turn which involves increasing taxes to finance military adventurism, let alone a draft, would obliterate the current governments and no election cancellation would work this time. they would have to do a elensky and declare martial law and cancel elections, which i dont certainly put beyond them. hell, even the current swiss president lauded Vance speech. winds are really changing.

Dracula and the liver sausage were blabbering about dropping EU deficit restrictions in order to "invest" in security. lol. have these morons looked at the debt level of their broke economies? and if the german govt drops the schuldbremse, the germoids will not like that one bit. yes, in germany weimar hyperinflation is still a thing and the traditional parties would be wiped out.

i think ultimately this will go nowhere, as the big boss (USA) will yank the leash and the lapdogs will quickly get back in line. without the US/NATO nuclear umbrella EU counts nothing. lots of smoke but no fire.

they will whine, scream, complain but they basically have zero leverage.

 

[Happy Camper]

Some comedy gold courtesy of none other than Captain Sweden and the yapping puppies that make up the Baltic states. When America (weak, third rate) surrenders to Vladolf, the real (humanitarian) superpower will take over and aid Ukraine towards its final, surely inevitable victory.

Hard to fathom what they think they'll actually get out of quadrupling down at this stage when everything's obviously never been more over but that's feels over reals for you.

 

[HOMO FOR LIFE RETURNS]

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I fully expect these dumb eurofags to talk about possible fallout from the peace treaty and how they can shield THEMSELVES.

Or they can go full retard and commit everything to Ukranian war, including men.

 

[Eternal Gopnik]

It's not solely about external defence. After all, at least some of the smarter EU heads must realise nobody is going to invade them militarily. But an EU army would be made up of many different nations yet have remit to be stationed and deployed in any member state. So if there's civil uprising in Britain, they can deploy Polish troops, trouble in Italy? Deploy British troops. Armies siding with the local populace from which they're drawn has always been a risk for dictators, which is why historically they loved to bring in foreign mercenaries (often Swiss) to bolster their power. That's a little too obvious these days if you want to be "democratic" but an EU army can accomplish the same thing legally and with a fig leaf of "unity".

Fucking Bingo. I've been meaning to write something similar but I couldn't really put it into words.

The main reason why European countries have absolutely laughable military forces is that our elites are terrified of them. Because what do you need to build a functional army? You need confident, strong men - and men like that are anathema to liberal democratic politicians who have never worked in their entire life and just keep failing upwards. A genuinely strong military force of any European country would never let itself be commanded by any Euro politician, and it would probably eventually rise up and string them all up.

But an EU army could do exactly what you said - just deploy the Swedes to Croatia and the Spaniards to Hungary. They don't speak the language, the culture is alien to them, they don't even like the food, they don't care about the people they're "liberating" or "protecting". As you said, every oppressive regime hires mercenaries because the politicians are well aware of what their own people would do to them if they had arms - and the EU is basically a cartel of oppressive regimes.

 

[Charred Dinosaur]

Pocketbros I don't feel so good

Also F to the guy who actually did his job and used the resources given to him to build a fort only for its garrison to give it up and run for their lives to escape encirclement when the dude should have just pocketed it all

 

[TexWiller]

Fucking Bingo. I've been meaning to write something similar but I couldn't really put it into words.

The main reason why European countries have absolutely laughable military forces is that our elites are terrified of them. Because what do you need to build a functional army? You need confident, strong men - and men like that are anathema to liberal democratic politicians who have never worked in their entire life and just keep failing upwards. A genuinely strong military force of any European country would never let itself be commanded by any Euro politician, and it would probably eventually rise up and string them all up.

But an EU army could do exactly what you said - just deploy the Swedes to Croatia and the Spaniards to Hungary. They don't speak the language, the culture is alien to them, they don't even like the food, they don't care about the people they're "liberating" or "protecting". As you said, every oppressive regime hires mercenaries because the politicians are well aware of what their own people would do to them if they had arms - and the EU is basically a cartel of oppressive regimes.

is an interesting take but under current treaties and provision in the EU, defence is left to member states. introducing treaties creating an EU army would take years, or decades. or more likely, never, as these arrangements require unanimity and that is now out of the question.

there have been small scale experiments of intra-national military coordination but they mostly failed.

i find more likely that the EU madmen really think they can create another superpower by "decoupling", as Dacula says, from the bad orange man led US.
lol. good luck with that.

 

[Radola Gajda]

It is joever.
Wagnerites kicked French from West Africa.
Long may Macron seethe.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

is an interesting take but under current treaties and provision in the EU, defence is left to member states. introducing treaties creating an EU army would take years, or decades. or more likely, never, as these arrangements require unanimity and that is now out of the question.

there have been small scale experiments of intra-national military coordination but they mostly failed.

i find more likely that the EU madmen really think they can create another superpower by "decoupling", as Dacula says, from the bad orange man led US.
lol. good luck with that.

They're just going to end up with the same bunch of alliances and mutual-defense pacts that triggered WWI.

 

[Einszwei]

The idea of a European army is so laughable it's not even worth discussing. The EU can't wipe it's own ass without first asking permission from Washington and everybody knows it. They will be told to foot the bill for reconstruction and that's about it. To make his deal more palatable to Ukraine, Trump might force the EU to offer Ukraine a legally binding path to full membership within the next 5 years or so.

I thought it was hilarious when Putin said the other day that European leaders will bow down at the feet of their master, wagging their tails obediently and Trump went on to retweet it. It felt quite satisfying to see these squirming creatures be publicly humiliated by their own master like that.

What I think is more realistic than European boots on the ground is some sort of international UN mission. It would see UN weapons inspectors be permanently stationed in Ukraine to monitor compliance with whatever quotas will be agreed upon for Ukraine's military capabilities. This would probably satisfy Russia's demands for security guarantees. As for Ukraine's security guarantees, they might see some symbolic UN blue helmets with a strictly peacekeeping mandate be deployed along the eastern border which will be drawn along the current front line. Zelensky's latest cope that he wants the Feb. 2022 borders back will just be ignored by the adults in the room as always.

 

[Shallow Wave]

nothing ever happens and the quadrupling down is the death throes of established regimes due to funding getting cut and usa being ever closer to leaving euros to tend to themselves, in a way "YOU ARE NOT LEAVING US! WE ARE GETTING RID OF YOU!" kinda thing. Europe gonna trade gas and invite oligarch children to prestige colleges in 2 years as if nothing ever happened.

 

[TexWiller]

Trump might force the EU to offer Ukraine a legally binding path to full membership within the next 5 years or so.

That would require some serious arm twisting from the US.

the EU is, first and foremost, a wealth transfer mechanism, where contributions paid by member states mostly flow to "poor" countries.
now, when countries joining EU are small size, that doesnt move much in the grand scheme of economic things, but a country the size and state of destruction like Ukraine will drain most EU resources for decades. And EU already lost a net contributor when UK left, which left a huge hole in the EU budget.
france, germany and italy would never accept that, whatever the politicians say now. talk is cheap. neither would all the recipients, who would see the EU money disappear.
on top of that, to be eligible for membership Ukr should implement the "acquis", which is the enormous amount of european rules and regulations, which will take forever. aha, and they would have to solve the corruption and grift that is endemic in Ukr. european elites hate competition.

the way i see it, the EU is fucked, and there is no practical way out unless the EU elites start queueing to kiss putin's ass and apologize, kiss trump's ass and apologize, and drop the ukrops.

here a table of contributors and beneficiaries of EU funds

https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/12/09/eu-budget-who-pays-the-most-into-the-eu-and-who-gains-the-most

fun fact: belgium and luxemburg, some of the richest countries in the world, are net beneficiaries. a coincidence, surely.
more fun facts: the swiss pay 1.3 bln swiss francs to the EU and get foxtrot oscar.
contributions for stability my ass. i call that extorsion

https://www.eda.admin.ch/schweizerbeitrag/en/home/zweiter-schweizer-beitrag/laender.html

 

[Brahma]

Some comedy gold courtesy of none other than Captain Sweden and the yapping puppies that make up the Baltic states. When America (weak, third rate) surrenders to Vladolf, the real (humanitarian) superpower will take over and aid Ukraine towards its final, surely inevitable victory.
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Hard to fathom what they think they'll actually get out of quadrupling down at this stage when everything's obviously never been more over but that's feels over reals for you.

What I really can't get over is this language of "must" and "cannot be allowed to" etc.

It feels terribly sophomoric, juvenile even.

I think part of the problem is that unlike elites of the past, the current Western, particularly European (we don't have -any- Vance analogues in Europe that I know if) elites have lead such sheltered lives that they are seemingly unaware that bad things just sometimes happen. They all got in to the school they wanted, got on to the job they wanted, smooth sailing.

So they've had no real personal tragedies that taught them that sometimes things don't do the way the planned. That at least would have given them a frame of reference for handling things at a larger level.

Say what you want about the aristocratic elite pre 39, their lives were no where near as sedentarily immune to disruption as the bureaucratic elites have been.

They seem fundamentally fragile as a result. Dare I say it, snowflakes?

 

[Feline Supremacist]

Zhirinovsky predicted this.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

It feels terribly sophomoric, juvenile even.

That's because we are dealing with infants. This Macron summit is quite literally going to be the Children's Table while the adults are sitting at the big table having the real discussion in Saudi Arabia.

 

[Betonhaus]

Apparently it was the principle or something that mattered? It's pretty much the type of vacuous answer you'd expect. At least skepticism towards this whole thing's rising, so I remain a Positive Polly.

what the fuck does the principle of the thing mean? Would you chop your own hand off if it was for the principle if the thing?

 

[warhammerautist]

 

[VargReallyDidNothingWrong]

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>The North Korean army?? At this time of year, at this time of day, in this part of the continent, localized entirely within Kursk??
>Yes
>May I see it?
>... No
>Seymour, Vovchansk is on fire!
>No mother, that's just the Northern Lights

 

[Male Idiot]

North Korean stealth troopers could be anywhere! I think I got one in my pantry. They are everywhere, even in Trump's tie. They pop out of KFC boxes in the Bronx.

But you just can't see them as they got Stealth to 100! Ceiling North Korea is watching you!