Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[The Ugly One]

I didn't say they had anything in common with 4e. I said there was a lack of comprehensive rules for shit after 4e's loot packets.

You said, and I quote, that 5e is a "re-skinned lazier version of 4e." That's a weird way to say that the two games have little in common. I'm not sure why you think 5e reintroducing an AD&D-style approach to loot is related to 4e's suggested reward table, but pretty much everything you say is rather incoherent and suggests you have played 4e or 5e, probably both, very little, but have spent a great deal time being MATI about them.

 

[p1138]

You said, and I quote, that 5e is a "re-skinned lazier version of 4e." That's a weird way to say that the two games have little in common. I'm not sure why you think 5e reintroducing an AD&D-style approach to loot is related to 4e's suggested reward table, but pretty much everything you say is rather incoherent and suggests you have played 4e or 5e, probably both, very little, but have spent a great deal time being MATI about them.

Because it is, doesn't mean they're identical. 4e was heavily combat focused, 5e is a lazier version of it. 5e also ditched the linear alignment that 4e had as well if you want another example of how shit doesn't need to be the same. Also doesn't mean I think 4e as a whole was any good, as I said the game was shit.

Wait... did I just stumble into a pile of fucking 4e fans? They can't read, can't write, have little understanding of playing or running the games and similarities to other versions and systems... wow.

 

[The Ugly One]

Because it is, doesn't mean they're identical. 4e was heavily combat focused, 5e is a lazier version of it.

D&D has always been a heavily combat-focused game. 4e didn't introduce the idea of 90% of your character sheet revolving around how you kill bad guys.

5e also ditched the linear alignment that 4e had as well if you want another example of how shit doesn't need to be the same. Also doesn't mean I think 4e as a whole was any good, as I said the game was shit.

Wait... did I just stumble into a pile of fucking 4e fans? They can't read, can't write, have little understanding of playing or running the games and similarities to other versions and systems... wow.

lol calm down

 

[Maverick Vile]

For example, they were fighting a robot in a recent session. I was careful to mention that most of its case was off. Loose wires were hanging from its arms, and it had an exposed battery pack. Instead of announcing that they would try to cut the wires with a knife or target the battery with a heat ray they had, or just use their burning torch to melt the wires, they opted for round after round of "I attack again".

I would describe the robot swinging at one of the players on a miss being attributed to one of the wires getting caught on a light fixture nearby, specifically how the robot takes its time disentangling itself instead of simply ripping its arm free. Describe how it even lets one of the players get a solid shot in while it makes sure to gently untangle the wire. You'd be surprised how many players get caught up in the "flavor text is flavor text" mindset. And to be fair, a lot of modules have no tactical hints buried within their descriptions at all. Describing something multiple times in different instances, especially when it interrupts the normal back and forth of dice rolls, can hammer it in. I wouldn't just mention something once and expect them to suddenly connect the dots.

As for teaching them tactical retreats? You fucking got me, man. I actually run in a pretty decent group, and it's next to fucking impossible to convince players to not just charge the nearest goon and sit there full attacking until one side falls over. The concept of abusing monsters who lack ranged options by peppering them with something as simple as slings and kiting them into a chokepoint is like pulling teeth.

It also kills the roleplaying aspect. You wouldn't want to engage a dire boar in melee. You'd plug that walnut-brained slab of surly muscle with as many ranged options as possible, and you certainly wouldn't just engage a pack of them in the open. But the Ranger kitted himself out for two-weapon fighting, and even though he has an insanely high dex score the fucker didn't even pack a longbow, so 9 times out of 10 that faggot's going to charge the nearest boar because next turn he's going to be swinging four times now that he can plant his feet and full attack. Except, he charged, so now his AC is two less for a round, just enough time for all the other boars in the clearing to surround him and turn him into chunky salsa. Oh, and the cleric is two turns away instead of one because the ranger charged at the very edge of his 30 ft move distance and the cleric's movespeed is 20 because of his armor, so if there's anything left of the Ranger after the first round the cleric's gonna have a hell of a time getting to him and dragging his lifeless body out of there.

 

[Judge Dredd]

Oddly enough I never really read any DMG since I picked up experience with GMing via another system (the only one I've skimmed is 3.5's and 5e's; again I was seasoned enough to at least run games and just got better with it with time). But if you had to force me to, I'd probably pick the first two editions since the hobby was much more niche and unfamiliar than it would be today, meaning by my logic it'd probably teach you a lot more of the basics of setting up and running a campaign.

DMGs can be very good, but the problem is who the book is for and what goals does it want to achieve. 5e and PF2 have horrible DMGs if you're looking at them as broad books aimed at new people about learning how to run a game. Books like Return of the Lazy Dungeon Master are far better for that kind of thing. The problem is they don't have a lot of re-use potential.

As a book of extra rules and tables, these books can be interesting and something you reference a lot. How poison and disease is handled, how to handle chases, magic items, wild magic tables, things like that. The problem then becomes one of content. And again. Other books do this better. Worlds Without Number, Knave, and even old school books like Wasteland Survival Guide are all better in this regard. Even WOTC's own work trumps it. This is why I didn't get the hype for Tashas or Xanathas (or forget which) because 75% of the book was just the content from the Eberron book with the setting specific elements removed.

I'm interested in the bastion system for base building, and the 100 adventures because it could be potentially be interesting, but not "buy the hardback at full price" level of interesting. Pathfinder has base and city management rules, but they're all completely separated from the main game. There have been other books like the Nimble DMG, or various setting and advenutre books (including Sly Flourish stuff) because even if I don't run the thing in the book, it's normally enough good ideas to steal.

I actually run in a pretty decent group, and it's next to fucking impossible to convince players to not just charge the nearest goon and sit there full attacking until one side falls over. The concept of abusing monsters who lack ranged options by peppering them with something as simple as slings and kiting them into a chokepoint is like pulling teeth.

Obstacles like stairs and chasms can help there.

There's also the opposite problem. I've mentioned HEMA guy a bunch in the past, a guy who had a degree in medieval combat from the university of YouTube.

 

[Ghostse]

I didn't say they had anything in common with 4e. I said there was a lack of comprehensive rules for shit after 4e's loot packets.

Apparently you still can't fucking read, type, or something. At no point did I say anything about an "edition war", nor did I say which version of the DMG was faggier than another version. If you haven't noticed the retards for the past decade that lose their fucking minds at at the idea of any major changes occurring in 5e, faggy or otherwise, you've clearly not been paying attention to anything really.

Bunch of illiterate retards giving opinions about shit... is this what it's like trying to have a text based conversation with xQc?

lmao where is this copypasta from?

 

[WhatIsThePunchline]

It also kills the roleplaying aspect. You wouldn't want to engage a dire boar in melee. You'd plug that walnut-brained slab of surly muscle with as many ranged options as possible, and you certainly wouldn't just engage a pack of them in the open. But the Ranger kitted himself out for two-weapon fighting, and even though he has an insanely high dex score the fucker didn't even pack a longbow, so 9 times out of 10 that faggot's going to charge the nearest boar because next turn he's going to be swinging four times now that he can plant his feet and full attack. Except, he charged, so now his AC is two less for a round, just enough time for all the other boars in the clearing to surround him and turn him into chunky salsa. Oh, and the cleric is two turns away instead of one because the ranger charged at the very edge of his 30 ft move distance and the cleric's movespeed is 20 because of his armor, so if there's anything left of the Ranger after the first round the cleric's gonna have a hell of a time getting to him and dragging his lifeless body out of there.

99% of dnd games you won't need any tactics beyond walk forward and hit.
The same ratio of games will not have any combat occur beyond a distance of like 60 feet.
This includes non dnd games.
It's no wonder no player ever do anything else.

Whenever a player takes the time to be careful, do logistics, make sure he has ranged options, make sure he picks good spells, whatever, 99% of the time it is a pointless waste of time because the gm won't have any monsters that a blind child without arms couldn't kill, and the plot won't actually be connected to how well or badly you fight anyway.

 

[Quintus]

where is my half elf cannibal serial killer waifu who mentions on the off-hand she might think about raping you after you deny her?

Cut out the rape part and that's a character I have played. I've mentioned her before, but she was the chaotic evil blood magic using assassin I played. She wound up becoming obsessed with a sidekick npc we had after she became convinced he was favored by the blood god she worshipped. She manipulated him into staying with her after I retired the character. She then proceeded to lock him in her basement so he could never escape her. Poor guy.

 

[God of Nothing]

Cut out the rape part and that's a character I have played. I've mentioned her before, but she was the chaotic evil blood magic using assassin I played. She wound up becoming obsessed with a sidekick npc we had after she became convinced he was favored by the blood god she worshipped. She manipulated him into staying with her after I retired the character. She then proceeded to lock him in her basement so he could never escape her. Poor guy.

you're crazy, man

 

[Quintus]

you're crazy, man

Yup.

 

[strawberry15]

99% of dnd games you won't need any tactics beyond walk forward and hit.
The same ratio of games will not have any combat occur beyond a distance of like 60 feet.
This includes non dnd games.
It's no wonder no player ever do anything else.

Whenever a player takes the time to be careful, do logistics, make sure he has ranged options, make sure he picks good spells, whatever, 99% of the time it is a pointless waste of time because the gm won't have any monsters that a blind child without arms couldn't kill, and the plot won't actually be connected to how well or badly you fight anyway.

In Ad&d combat is supposed to start in a great distance if it is happening outside because you would see the enemy at least 50 yards away. The problem is not the games do not give you options but, because people become accustomed to playing over maps and grids. Most combat maps are 30x30 or 25x25. Playing on mat makes it really hard to think outside of the box because you put yo players in a box lol. In the lack of a map, i saw my players tend to use the enviroment (destroying bridges, collapsing roof etc.) escaping more( lets run to the ruins where the enemies can be trapped by us.) or just starting combat with different strategies. I am not saying that combat mats really bad, it is just that when you have a map, unconsciously we are conditioning ourselves to never leave it.

Secondly, my ad&d games, pf1e games and 4e games had usage of tactics of varying degrees. In those games, how the monsters attacks, level drain, DR, immunities etc play a much bigger role and therefore people rrally need to change their tactics. 5e has bounded accuracy ( max ac is 20 at most for all monsters+ all players has at least +6 to their dice modifiers) which means you can hit every turn, and can be hit at every turn. The only variable in adjusting difficulty is the hp and the demage of the monster. Therefore you only hit.

 

[Scream Aim Fire]

Bit late, but I think some of you guys might find this interesting.

 

[Tactical Wizard]

I never want to hear any of you 4rries ever bitch about people pointing out that Fourth edition was ripping off WoW ever again.

 

[Acrid Alchemist]

I never want to hear any of you 4rries ever bitch about people pointing out that Fourth edition was ripping off WoW ever again.

Imagine trusting the word of the man who actively torpedoed the edition. He wasn't even on the design team for the first release and he actively shit talked the game publicly until he was given lead design after the actual original designers left or were booted by Hasbro.

Even if you hate 4th Edition after all these years Mike Mearls is wormy little faggot and should not be trusted on anything he says. Especially now that he has an axe to grind after he was given the boot about a year or so ago.

 

[AnOminous]

Original DMG is only good DMG. The one that looked like this.

Every one since?

Utter garbage.

 

[The Ugly One]

Imagine trusting the word of the man who actively torpedoed the edition. He wasn't even on the design team for the first release and he actively shit talked the game publicly until he was given lead design after the actual original designers left or were booted by Hasbro.

Even if you hate 4th Edition after all these years Mike Mearls is wormy little faggot and should not be trusted on anything he says. Especially now that he has an axe to grind after he was given the boot about a year or so ago.

Just somehow doubt that someone who's got a reputation as an all-around decent guy is making up a pack of lies solely to upset 4e fans who were in denial about the game's obvious MMO inspirations.

 

[The Bogwater Rises]

Having run a couple sessions of Starfinder I can absolutely see why people don't care about it. I love science fantasy/space opera settings, but the game is in a weird "it's just fantasy but in space" kind of setting that doesn't 100% work and the rules are too loose between Magic and Tech items IMO. Still only 2 sessions in it and following modules. I think I'll have my total feel after I finish Junker's Paradise.

 

[Acrid Alchemist]

View attachment 6995109

Just somehow doubt that someone who's got a reputation as an all-around decent guy is making up a pack of lies solely to upset 4e fans who were in denial about the game's obvious MMO inspirations.

https://dmdavid.com/tag/dds-biggest-controversies-ranked-4-fourth-edition-sparks-an-edition-war-and-the-creation-of-the-pathfinder-roleplaying-game/

Mearls himself said he wasn't there during the initial design meetings when that sort of thing was said and the Wizards Presents Races and Classes book even lists him coming and going from the project. It even includes emails from during development. The only WoW reference in those books is explaining why Gnomes got cut from PHB1 because they didn't want to be like those Gnomes.

 

[Judge Dredd]

I never want to hear any of you 4rries ever bitch about people pointing out that Fourth edition was ripping off WoW ever again.

I came to post that. Different reason.

The far more interesting part is his complaint about bonus actions. How it was meant to be a quick little rule to reduce complexity and step stupid action chains, but in practice it became the focus of the action economy.

This ties into my complaints with multi-attack-penalty and the so called "third action problem". I've been tempted to remove the MAP from PF2 (and possibly Nimble if I play that) because those inclined to stand in place and spam attack do so anyway.

 

[AnOminous]

What is the worst moral choice you ever faced your players with? I had a CoC thing where I gave the players a choice of collaborating with literal Nazis against eldritch horrors. Not random Nazis, literal NSDAP Nazis.