Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I like how Zelensky's political opponents in the Ukrainian parliament confirm Martial Law extension every time without any protest, and Petr Poroshenko went on a record numerous times saying he's against holding elections until the war ends, yet some yankees over the fucking ocean pretend to be offended on behalf of Ukrainian people (whom they hate), while conveniently omitting these details.

You have to understand that Yankees can have a self-destructive mentality. I know, since I am one and I've seen it myself. The states whose people vote the hardest against welfare are the ones who need it most, yet they vote against it because it's what "the party" told them to do. The conservative SJWs are even worse than the liberal ones. They pretend like Russia's the victim here, when it's quite obvious that Ukraine was just defending what was rightfully theirs.

If these MAGA fuckers are honest about being nationalists, then they would support Ukraine. But they don't, because Biden supported Ukraine. Literally, their antagonism towards Ukraine is explained by A) our enemies supported them, so we won't, and B) all the "based conservative Putin" propaganda that the Russians trod out managed to penetrate the MAGA crowd. Looks like American liberals are far from the only suckers to fall for Kremlin propaganda.

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

Lol.

Zelensky is a "dictator" who's illegitimate, but at the same time he's legitimate enough to sign deals on the entire country's minerals

I think the problem is the fact liberals can't reconcile the fact that dictatorship has advantages over democracy in times of war. Lincoln, FDR, Churchill did act like dictators during war, but had to in order to win. Zelensky is no different. Defenders of liberal democracy have a hard time reconciling the contradiction that the defense of their livelihood sometimes require bending the rules of them.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I think the problem is the fact liberals can't reconcile the fact that dictatorship has advantages over democracy in times of war. Lincoln, FDR, Churchill did act like dictators during war, but had in order to win. Zelensky is no different. Defenders of liberal democracy have a hard time reconciling the contradiction that the defense of their livelihood sometimes require bending them.

The problem is, we're talking about the MAGA conservatives who typically demonize Lincoln and think that he was wrong for assuming dictatorial powers to save the Union during the war with the South. But assuming more power to kek the state and give more of its wealth to billionaires is A-OK.

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

The problem is, we're talking about the MAGA conservatives who typically demonize Lincoln

You don't even have to use Lincoln. Just use a dictator they like. Even the confederacy was a dictatorship during the Civil War. You have to talk to people where they are.

But assuming more power to kek the state and give more of its wealth to billionaires is A-OK.

This thread leaks a lot of US politics of course (its hard not to ) which de-rail it unfortunately, but this isn't a problem unique to Republicans either. Elon Musk voted for Biden in 2020 and was a huge Democrat donor for decades before that.

 

[World in Scarlet]

link

link

---

Some parts of the new RUSI report:

link

Spoiler

 

[SBG]

There is also the likely possibility Biden and company were fibbing on the dollar amount of aid sent. Where they were publicly stating an X amount being sent and spent but in the books a different amount so it can be grafted. Given the hostility Trump is currently displaying it is very likely a significant amount of cash. And the culprits currently untouchable due the pardons Biden was giving to key individuals.

Granted this is a hypothesis and can very well be wrong.

I think it's more likely that Trump or his people just got the numbers wrong by doing stuff like adding up what the EU sent/appropriated with what the US sent/appropriated and then maybe tossing in what money had been invested in the US weapons manufacturers for good measure.

You don't randomly misplace tens of billions of dollars worth of weapons so there's funny math being done somewhere to come up with their figures.

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/20/us-ukraine-rare-earth-minerals-agreement

Scoop: U.S. and Ukraine discuss "improved" minerals deal after Trump raged at Zelensky​

The Trump administration has given Ukraine an "improved" draft for a minerals agreement between the countries, after President Volodmyr Zelensky infuriated President Trump by rejecting his initial offer, a Ukrainian official, a U.S. official and three sources with knowledge tell Axios.
Why it matters: The disagreement over minerals helped spark a wider crisis in relations this week, with Trump denouncing Zelensky as a "dictator" who chose war with Russia, and Zelensky accusing Trump of swallowing Russian "disinformation."
The intrigue: Sources on both sides now say a deal is now looking more likely.

• A source with knowledge said several of Zelensky's aides have encouraged him to sign the updated proposal to avoid a further clash with Trump and allow the U.S. president to justify further U.S. support for Ukraine.
• "There was significant improvement in the recent draft and it is in conformity with Ukrainian law," the source said.
• National security adviser Mike Waltz told reporters Thursday that Zelensky needed to "come back to the table" on the minerals issue.
• "This is a negotiation. And in a negotiation, you negotiate. Ukraine wants to negotiate minerals, so we're talking about it," a White House official said.

The big picture: Ukraine sits on significant reserves of rare earth minerals critical to the world's most cutting-edge technologies. In total, the value of the minerals could run into the trillions of dollars.

• The minerals agreement is not explicitly linked to any settlement to end the war in Ukraine, but the two issues have collided this week in dramatic fashion.

Catch up quick: The idea for an economic partnership between Ukraine and the U.S. was brought up originally last September by Zelensky during a meeting with Trump in New York.

• Last week, three hours before Secretary of Treasury Scott Bessent arrived for a meeting with Zelensky in Kyiv, the U.S. ambassador delivered a draft agreement for cooperation on the mining of minerals.
• The draft agreement said 50% of the resulting revenues would be given to the U.S., that the agreement would be under the jurisdiction of a New York court, and the deal would override any of Ukraine's other trade agreements, according to two sources who read the original draft.
• During their meeting, Bessent told Zelensky that Trump insisted he sign it right away. Zelensky told Bessent he couldn't sign an agreement he had only just received.

Between the lines: The Ukrainians were also disappointed that the U.S. draft didn't include any security guarantees for Ukraine, and that it was being pushed on them at a time when Ukraine was also being excluded from U.S.-Russia talks about Ukraine's future.

• But they were also surprised when Trump began to attack Zelensky publicly, including over the minerals proposal.

What they're saying: "Scott Bessent actually went there and was treated rather rudely, because essentially they told him 'no,'" Trump told reporters on Wednesday. "He came back empty. They wouldn't sign the document."

• Several days later, when Zelensky met Vice President Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio in Munich, they presented him with a less binding draft memorandum of understanding about the mining of minerals, a Ukrainian official said.
• Zelensky told Vance and Rubio he couldn't sign because under the Ukrainian constitution, such an agreement must be approved by parliament.
• "That was news to us that Zelensky's team never told us before that meeting," a Trump administration official said. "It didn't seem like it was in good faith."
• The White House and Zelensky's office did not respond to requests for comment.

Behind the scenes: Zelensky's position on the minerals deal was one of the issues that frustrated Trump and other senior U.S. officials and exacerbated the existing tensions over the U.S.-Russia meeting in Saudi Arabia, U.S. and Ukrainian officials say.

• "There is a lot of frustration. Vice President Vance was very frustrated leaving the Munich Security Conference. That is on top of the president (being frustrated)," Waltz told Fox News on Thursday.
• "We proposed to have the U.S. co-invest with Ukraine in its economy and natural resources and become a partner in Ukraine's future. This is the best security guarantee they can hope for. More than another pallet of ammunition."
• "Why are we getting pushback and badmouthing in the press? It's unacceptable. They need to tone it down. Take a hard look and sign this deal," Waltz said.

State of play: Trump said on Wednesday night that he was trying to "resurrect" the minerals deal.

• A Ukrainian official, a U.S. official and two sources with knowledge told Axios that in recent days negotiations continued, with the U.S. presenting Ukraine with an updated version that addressed some of Zelensky's concerns.
• Another source said some articles that had concerned the Ukrainians — including that the deal was under the jurisdiction of the New York court — were removed.

The latest: Zelensky met on Thursday in Kyiv with U.S. envoy Keith Kellogg and discussed the minerals agreement, the battlefield situation, the return of prisoners of war and security guarantees for Ukraine as part of a future peace agreement.

• After the meeting, Zelensky issued a statement thanking the U.S. for its assistance and bipartisan support.
• "Ukraine is ready for a strong, effective investment and security agreement with the President of the United States. We have proposed the fastest and most constructive way to achieve results. Our team is ready to work 24/7," he said.
• Waltz claimed Kellogg had helped Zelensky realize the war needed to end.

Sounds like they are working things out about doing the mineral rights deal, but were doing dumbass shit like not realizing Zelensky would have to run the agreement past parliament? Not sure how anyone can get blindsided like that unless they're not attempting to do real research or think Ukraine is a fake country.

 

[No. 7 cat]

Unless Trump engages in some 7D chess against Putin he needs to sell the Churchill (who had no election while the UK was ravaged by bombing and threatened with invasion) bust and Reagan portrait (see meme).

source

A Russian missile strike on Lviv on September 4 killed 7 people, including Yevheniia Bazylevych and her daughters: Yaryna (21), Dariia (1, and Emilia (7). Their father, Yaroslav Bazylevych, survived. This family is related to one of the greatest Ukrainian writers, Ivan Franko.

He spoke recently about his loss.

Spoiler: Zelensky meeting with Kellogg - Interfax UA

President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelenskyy has met with U.S. Presidential Special Representative for Ukraine and Russia Keith Kellogg in Kyiv on Thursday to discuss the situation at the front and security guarantees.

"Ukraine is ready for a strong and truly beneficial investment and security deal with the President of the United States. We have proposed the fastest and most effective path to achieving results. Our team is ready to work around the clock," Zelenskyy said on the Telegram channel following the meeting.

It is crucial for Ukraine and the entire free world to feel America' strength, the head of state emphasized.

"We discussed in detail the situation on the battlefield, the ways to repatriate all our prisoners of war, as well as effective security guarantees. From the very first moment of this war, Ukraine has been striving for peace. We can and must achieve a durable and lasting peace to ensure that Russia never returns with war," he said.

"It was a good conversation with many details [discussed]. I am grateful to the United States for all its assistance and bipartisan support for Ukraine and the Ukrainian people," Zelenskyy said in the message.

He also thanked Kellogg for their joint efforts in achieving important results.

archive / original

I suppose this is a sort of holding pattern, but the lack of a joint statement was notable. Trump might yet realize that traitor Tucker and the fat South African (M*sk did support Ukraine at the start but obviously saw shilling as in his interests) are a bad advisors, but that's looking less and less clear.

Worthless Waltz, Trump's Security advisor blaming Zelensky for the war

The evidence that the Trump administration has been subverted by the Kremlin is more than outweighing the vague warm words earlier.



Five killed including two 13 yo twins in Kherson yesterday - Anton Gerashchenko

 

[Frederica Bernkastel]

Not sure how anyone can get blindsided like that unless they're not attempting to do real research or think Ukraine is a fake country.

I would attribute it to hubris honestly, but I guess we have to trust the plan and wait.

Unless Trump engages in some 7D chess against Putin he needs to sell the Churchill (who had no election while the UK was ravaged by bombing and threatened with invasion) bust and Reagan portrait (see meme).

Vietnam, South Korea, and Taiwan were dictatorships, and the US had no problem supporting them because fuck communism, and I'm glad they did.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Churchill

Wait, I thought the point of this exercise was to not sell Eastern Europe out to the Russians.

 

[Ghostse]

https://archive.ph/KjF2I

White House adviser urges Ukraine to tone down criticism

WASHINGTON, Feb 20 (Reuters) - The White House continued to press Kyiv on Thursday with its efforts to bring an end to the Russia-Ukraine conflict, urging it to rein in criticism and quickly sign a minerals deal pushed by U.S. President Donald Trump.

Its Reuters, recipient of canceled USAID dollars so I need to check their sources, but bolded part logically tracks and provided Reuters hasn't done their usual pratice of headline manipulation, that would be the missing piece for the 180 on Z-man. The question is why this stuck in Trump's craw, it seemed like it was barely worth mean tweeting about.
Fuck I didn't want to actually look at the minerals deal because I'm sure I'm going to hate it: It sound half-baked, I don't want to read through a contract, but now I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to because Journalists are retarded, Rueters will take a TDS tack and Fox news would be the opposite.
But the last thing I saw on reasonably objective analysis was that Ukraine was willing to sign a mineral deal, but the one put forward was utterly ratfucked and practically unenforceable by either party.

The optimistic take is Trump is on Zelensky to sign the deal because he needs something to take the Euroskeptics to say "see? I'm not Biden, American is getting something tanglible out of our support for Ukraine so toe the fucking line".

But its Trump and "Its important because I came up with it" is also a likely underlying cause.

There is also the likely possibility Biden and company were fibbing on the dollar amount of aid sent. Where they were publicly stating an X amount being sent and spent but in the books a different amount so it can be grafted. Given the hostility Trump is currently displaying it is very likely a significant amount of cash. And the culprits currently untouchable due the pardons Biden was giving to key individuals.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think A) all the money laundering was probably done via USAID because B) if there was straight up cash payments on the book that weren't accounted for, I think Trump or Elon would have put that shit on maximum blast as soon as they had anything that looked like evidence.
So smells to me like physical aid packages.

There's absolutely no need to do it publicly, all it does is bolster Kremlin's resolve and feeds their propaganda.
Trump already has the upper hand in this relationship, it would be enough to threaten Zelensky privately if there was a problem.

That was my point; that's an office-door-closed dressing down situation, or at least should be done in official diplomatic channels, not something you post on Twitter; Vance was at an official function when he roasted the Eurocucks. But @Vince McMahon posted what's probably changed, which is the mineral deal and Trump is not going though non-official channels to apply pressure precisely because they aren't official.

It's crazy to compare this Trump to the Trump that had Zelensky visit him at MAL last september. Completely different positions on nearly everything. Musk and Tucker Carlson wormed into his inner circle after that point (which I confess I wanted to pretend wasn't happening) and seem to have turned him to their way of thinking while Zelensky was off regrouping European support.

Tucker backstabbed Trump after 2020, I don't think Moscow Tucker is where its coming from. Vance I've been worried about since the campaign. Of course Tucker -> Vance/Musk -> Trump is a flow that wouldn't be too far out of line.
Musk is too unpredictable, cracked out, and running in his own world to guess what he's actually on about.
Musk/DOGE had his line of Communication to Trump put through the Whitehouse COS so I'm skeptical of the PResident Elon leftoid meme.

I don't believe the "Vance isn't taking on the role of Trump's protege" talk.

It's an unfortunate reality that Trump's greatest strength, of listening to advisors, is also his greatest weakness, because he often invests himself in their ideas to the point of claiming them as his own. Ego drives the rest. I had hoped - and to an extent still do hope - that ego will ultimately drive him to outdo Biden and seek to end the war by throwing every weapon he could find at Ukraine. If Russia does keep pushing unreasonable demands, this might still be a possibility. And make no mistake, Russia is making unreasonable demands that even Trump likely can't countenance for long.
[...]
As the zen master said, when the little boy broke his leg: we'll see.

Concern is that Trump lets focus on ending the war expediently blind him to the cost - and the likelyhood of a NEW war starting later on.
But, as your zen master says, we will see.

Ryan McBeth contends it might be 5D chess Trump shit, make Putin overbid, but frankly the strat is looking like turbo- Chamberlain.
[...]
I hope Zelenky tells Trump to offer proper guarantees or eat shit (in diplomatese).

I don't believe 12D chess, or if it is I will eat my crow same as if Trump goes full cuck.

My hope is that Z-man is able to tell Trump to eat shit if he comes through with a terrible deal. But so far its just getting Russia to give terms to be presented to Ukraine.

Yeah I'm not sacrificing American cities for Ukrainian ones. Sorry.

We will eventually if Putin isn't checked, and wish we'd traded earlier when it was cheaper.
But really, the idea should be to see Putin is willing sacrifice Russian cities for Ukrainian ones.

G7 split over Ukraine as US opposes Russian ‘aggression’ label​

Trump administration increasingly using ‘Ukrainian conflict’ instead of holding Moscow responsible for war

You don't get someone to the table for productive negotiations by calling them bloodthirsty warmongers no matter how accurate the label.
Macron is also in favor of Russia back in the G7/8, so the plan is Europrole approved
which I think makes it seem like an even worse idea

Since our resident translator is sleepy allow me to make a stab at it:

He’s going to resurrect the deal or Zelenskyy won’t be “too happy”:
Non-statement. I won’t bother insulting the intelligence of everyone in this thread by explaining why this veiled threat is actually intelligent politicking.

Yammering on and on about the danger of trains:
Highlight how hard little Scott is working to make this deal work and that maybe that little shit sleepy Zelenskyy should but in some of the work that real politicians do and sign the deal.

Europe is getting paid and American isn’t:
Obviously fuck Europeans. Sure they might be our allies, but they’re a little uppity. Not a good look Euros.

Unaccounted for aid: Just making sure all the I’s are dotted and T’s are crossed. He’s a good business man, the biggliest.

Obviously more high IQ nonstatements and advanced political thinking that the average retard Euro can’t understand. (Insert whataboutism regarding Scholz again because and make sure to edit this out)

Notice the Russians still haven’t said anything. No it’s not the simple answer of “you don’t make a move when your opponent has put his pants on his head and started speaking in tongues like a retard.” It’s because they’re actually sweating nervously right now. 100 negative statements that imply an absolutely shattered relationship and horrible understanding of current events that line up with the lowest form of Russian propaganda mean nothing. We’re still just in the beginning of peace talks. It’s a fluid situation.

I hope I interpreted the statements correctly for our local armchair politician . I also pray the 3 day Special Janitorial Operation they put you in charge of was successful.

Hi this is the Urkaine thread, @World in Scarlet can direct you to where the line to fondle HHH's balls starts.

 

[SBG]

The question is why this stuck in Trump's craw, it seemed like it was worth anything.

Trump wants his version of taking the oil as he said should’ve been done in the Middle East.

Which I get, but what’s weird is immediately attacking Z man when they wanted legal details, like the New York courts thing, fixed up and a security guarantee.

I do think it was notable today how his national security advisor wouldn’t agree at a press briefing that Zelensky was a dictator and instead stuck to normal diplomatic language about wanting the war to end. Even Vance wasn’t looking eager to do that.

There’s also been pushback from figures like Farage and Boris Johnson saying Trump didn’t necessarily mean what he said, so seems like every figure that can is coming out trying to get Trump to chill. May have been why Kellogg didn’t make a public statement with Zelensky today as they may be wanting to work out these deals quietly without Trump acting pissed.

 

[Junkers 87]

I like how Zelensky's political opponents in the Ukrainian parliament confirm Martial Law extension every time without any protest, and Petr Poroshenko went on a record numerous times saying he's against holding elections until the war ends, yet some yankees over the fucking ocean pretend to be offended on behalf of Ukrainian people (whom they hate), while conveniently omitting these details.

This last bit in particular irks me. These people will say 'Our money, our rules. Don't like it? Fuck off and fight Russia by yourself'', or bring up how America still had elections during the Civil War or World War 2. They're willfully ignoring political and wartime realities that are unique to this situation. I have more respect for ziggers who are open about their opposition to Ukraine than I do for my fellow burgers, who act like sneaky little faggots and use examples of American exceptionalism to justify abandoning Ukraine.

Holding elections during difficult times is a very American thing to do. It shows the resilience of a democratic government. America however, is a uniquely exceptional country and trying to overlay it on top of Ukraine and expecting the two to mirror each other just isn't going to happen.

 

[Agamemnon Busmalis]

Holding elections during difficult times is a very American thing to do. It shows the resilience of a democratic government.

It also helps the US faced absolutely zero threat to the home front during both World Wars. If the Japanese had taken Hawaii and were launching a massive offensive on the West Coast while the Germans reduced New York City to rubble it'd be a whole different situation.

 

[Ghostse]

Trump wants his version of taking the oil as he said should’ve been done in the Middle East.

Which I get, but what’s weird is immediately attacking Z man when they wanted legal details, like the New York courts thing, fixed up and a security guarantee.

That's what I mean. I understand the position as to the first part, and to the second part (to repeat: I am relying on the analysis of the lugenpress which is a fool's game. I know. I'm admitting to and owning being too currently being too lazy busy to find and read the actual document) is the agreement didn't seem to be super valuable. Not chump change, but it'd take a long time to pay back the US's military aid*. It seemed more like a token agreement, and more about securing access, than anything substantive. And Ukraine says they were good with the agreemnt in principal, they just wanted minor tweaks about dispute jurisdiction - stuff that would be shorter to fix than tweet about, nothing about the meat of the deal. OTOH, Slavs gonna Slav. Maybe Trump thinks he's being given a shinejob, and maybe he is.

* blah blah Pentagon list price not reflecting real value, items having negative value due to needing to be destroyed/decommissioned, etc. Can we pretend I fully equivocated there on the listed number not being a realistic valuation? thanks.

I do think it was notable today how his national security advisor wouldn’t agree at a press briefing that Zelensky was a dictator and instead stuck to normal diplomatic language about wanting the war to end. Even Vance wasn’t looking eager to do that.

There’s also been pushback from figures like Farage and Boris Johnson saying Trump didn’t necessarily mean what he said, so seems like every figure that can is coming out trying to get Trump to chill. May have been why Kellogg didn’t make a public statement with Zelensky today as they may be wanting to work out these deals quietly without Trump acting pissed.

I just hate the white noise of everyone on all sides flying off the handle the minute Trump opens his mouth (or the twitter app) because its just slop to sift while waiting for anything of solid value to come out. i thought everyone had learned from 2016-2020 just how much hot air Trump produces while at a rest state but apparently not.

 

[Apteryx Retardi]

I would attribute it to hubris honestly, but I guess we have to trust the plan and wait.
View attachment 7005354

Vietnam, South Korea, and Taiwan were dictatorships, and the US had no problem supporting them because fuck communism, and I'm glad they did.

How the fuck would that even work.

 

[SBG]

It seemed more like a token agreement, and more about securing access, than anything substantive. And Ukraine says they were good with the agreemnt in principal, they just wanted minor tweaks about dispute jurisdiction - stuff that would be shorter to fix than tweet about, nothing about the meat of the deal. OTOH, Slavs gonna Slav. Maybe Trump thinks he's being given a shinejob, and maybe he is.

I think they intend it to be serious to treat it as an actual investment that the US would profit from. Where I think things got hinky is Trump may be thinking Ukraine genuinely is something akin to a dictatorship, due to people like Tucker and Musk talking to him too much, and not understand stuff like how they'd have to run stuff by their parliament.


Which would make the comments about how Ukraine should have told them that already be a way of attributing Trump's ignorance to Ukraine.

The agreement also is about stuff like wanting 50% of the revenue, being able to put liens on Ukraine if they withhold earnings, and initial draft mentioned how they could go to court in New York if there was a dispute. So it's not just about access, but wanting serious control over things there.

 

[Ghostse]

How the fuck would that even work.

It really wouldn't, because NATO forbids membership while borders are indispute specifically to prevent this sort of "just in time" bullshit.
which is a key reason that makes Russian fretting about NATO membership as justification for war completely false, because Ukraine would have needed to resolve its civil war before applying for membership.

The agreement also is about stuff like wanting 50% of the revenue, being able to put liens on Ukraine if they withhold earnings, and initial draft mentioned how they could go to court in New York if there was a dispute. So it's not just about access, but wanting serious control over things there.

The document, iirc from the analysis, was a C&P of some standard resource lien agreement with a foreign governmental corporation - GazProm, PVDSA, PBS, etc; The issue, again as the journalist writing the article said, was that the agreement would be with the US and Ukraine's government, not some Ukraine Government wholly owned corporation and the court in New York (a favorite for international dispute slapflights due to UN proximity) wouldn't be able to assert its rulings over a sovereign foreign government. The things that would be in dispute would be more for the WTO to weigh in on.

 

[No. 7 cat]

The draft agreement seems to have been improved / beefed up.

A source with knowledge said several of Zelensky's aides have encouraged him to sign the updated proposal to avoid a further clash with Trump and allow the U.S. president to justify U.S. support for Ukraine.

"There was significant improvement in the recent draft and it is in conformity with Ukrainian law," the source said.

https://www.axios.com/2025/02/20/us-ukraine-rare-earth-minerals-agreement

'Sources' are notorious as stuff the journo makes up, so we will see. Zelensky might well decide that enraging Trump would be foolish. While Ukrainian drones predominate on many fronts, the loss of US aid or at least sales access for shells etc would be bad. US systems are crucial and Euro systems often use some US parts. Zelensky is perhaps just looking for a deal which isn't patent exploitation and a security guarantee.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

The fact that Trump acted like a schizophrenic baby in front of NATO and the EU will damage America's prestige in the future. Nobody will take a nation seriously if it keeps going back and forth between supporting other nations or isolationism. And the funny thing is, the isolationists are fucking liars, since the same group calling for isolationism now sees helping the poor in America as socialism. So it's not like that money they "saved" will go to paying the debt or helping Americans anyways. More than likely, it'll go to pay for the tax cuts they gave their rich buddies while the rest of America grows poorer and poorer. Unable to afford houses, unable to pay for college, unable to get jobs above the minimum wage, and soon, many more will have less aid from the government, to the point where corporate serfdom will be their only escape. But I suppose that's by design, given who Trump's friends really are in the US.

I just feel so bad for Ukraine. They fought all this way, they lost so much, only for their side to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and it ain't even their fault; it's America's fault. This is Vietnam and Afghanistan all over again. And it didn't need to be; all Trump had to do was leave the government on auto-pilot and he could've planted his flag on the corpse of Putin's Russia and taken credit for the work Biden started. And all would've remained well. Trump could sate his ego, Europe would have one less threat to worry about, Ukraine can finally control its own destiny, it would've all worked out in the end if Trump left well enough alone.

 

[teriyakiburns]

'Sources'

Journalists:

Kayfabe all the way down. I am currently very drunk, so I am now sources familiar with the matter. Trump will get on his knees and zelensky will invade London in a crusade of liberation, inshallah.